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Scrappy crap :)


August.5934

Fix Scrapper?  

65 members have voted

  1. 1. What should be done:

    • Give quickness back! But only for scrapper not for teams (PVP+PVE).
      18
    • Just increase the damage of hammer skills and reduce the cooldown of skill 3, 4 & 5 (PVP + PVE) &Increase barrier we get from Bulwark Gyro with higher duration and make it stun break (PVP + PVE)
      11
    • Object in Motion |: buff this trait so it give +15% striker damage bonus all the time and 100 Ferocity per boon on ourself.
      5
    • Impact Savant |: add +300 power & +300 condition as a base passive stat with the current 5% conversion of dmg into barrier.
      3
    • Scrapper is totally fine, We don't need anything.
      28


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1 hour ago, August.5934 said:

Results is what we want and honesty can bring it infront of us, no? 😁

If you say it like that they will probably make a new trait called Honesty Of Engagement the next patch just to spite the engineer, because Purity Of Purpose.

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It's ok scrapper have quickness in pve, witchout it you will need to take adps+qdps with it, means it will be unefective

Quciknes Heal Scrapper is perfect alternative to hfb right now, i wuld say it's bit better providing more survability to team in expensce of offensive if you no need aegis to cheat mechanics

For pvp/wvw i totaly agree, scrapper schold get quickness back for self only

 

iback quicknes/ or majority buff scrapper dmg in on evry kit in wvw/pvp (with exception to nades as they are fine)

Edited by Noah Salazar.5430
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7 hours ago, ventress.4879 said:

I don't see it much in sPvP (like most elites) but I regularly see it in WvW running into Zergs and downing people.

I don't know maybe it's just my experience, what do others think?

Its ran in spvp both in conquest and the last 3v3 season. They're all the same build, glass cannon relying on the element of surprise from the stealth gyro and superspeed.

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Not my build Meta 🙂.    I prefer using mortar... and I take the reveal trait for pesky scrappers who try to stealth gyro me.    Also variance comes in how melt-able you want to be.   Some take nades over bulwark gyro.  But at higher tiers you're gonna get burst and you have no stability and minimal projectile defence.

Anyway there are variances... in my nades build I generally use the stealth gyro to run away.

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I will say though that this season particularly I'm seeing more people try scrapper and do moderately well.  Before it was just like 5 of us (Cui, Newton, Alien, ET, me (Ash), one or two others).   Now there's all these new folks (who all seem to like the stealth burst and run away build).   I think the appeal is that it works well at mid tier for relatively little effort.   I think that build caps out when your opponents know what they're doing, or you face a scrapper who runs a counter to that build.    I will say that Newton was probably the one that annoyingly pioneered that stealth bomb build, but has since moved away from Hammer last I saw.   He found the same problem that it only got him so far.

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In any case, I would say scrapper currently isn't top tier but its vastly closer to meta then it has been in a long time.   It allows new players to have a few buttons to hit and they can hit the jackpot sometimes and wipe whole groups which will make them feel good.  Its kind of an easy intro into PvP and it does teach the importance of positioning and running away.

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Also Dr. Meta... you probably eat the scrappers alive on your Reaper right?   I find they don't tend to do very well against reapers and anything that can slow or pin them or fear them.  Having only one stun break and in the "annoying" build no Stability means you're likely farming the bandwagon jumpers.  How is it working out for you?  @Dr Meta.3158

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47 minutes ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

I feel like the damage on Electro-Whirl is a little low.

Hmmm, well it also reflects... and you can do auto attack while the electro whirl is doing damage.   I'm generally in a pretty happy place because if we got any more they'd hit us with a nerf bat.  So lets just slide under the radar.

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3 hours ago, shion.2084 said:

Also Dr. Meta... you probably eat the scrappers alive on your Reaper right?   I find they don't tend to do very well against reapers and anything that can slow or pin them or fear them.  Having only one stun break and in the "annoying" build no Stability means you're likely farming the bandwagon jumpers.  How is it working out for you?  @Dr Meta.3158

It depends on the skill of the player. I struggle vs people like ALIEN, ET, and Agent Ambi because they effectively use their ability to attack faster to counter my CC attempts and generally rely on winning the game of attrition to win despite how their builds are supposed to be bursty and necromancer as a whole is supposed to be attrition based. So paradoxically, I have to catch them to burst them and they have to out attrition me with again, the advantage of being able to attack faster than me makes things difficult. Everyone else, otherwise the bandwagon on any class really, dies easily because they all don't know how to actually play the class. Then they come here to complain instead of self learning or learning from the greats.

 

I would say normally it would be a 50/50 chance to win vs one of the top scrappers if it were not for stealth Gyro which is difficult to deal with if you have ports ready and your death sentence if you don't. Another problem case is that the magnet pull on toolkit is invisible if it is used out of stealth which that and hammer 5 can immediately use up your stunbreaks. Your only defense left is shroud which that scrapper build can eat through immediately meaning you must have a way to hamper their damage output if you go on the offense as you will lose blow for blow encounters with or without shroud and you must be immediately ready to change into a defensive advantage if they engage blocks because they can weave out and back into attacking range at a whim. Also chill only works if you run speed runes since superspeed outpaces everything else even while chilled and running speed runes requires some detrimental buildcraft for not the greatest results in spvp due to the nerfs aimed at renegade killing speed runes reaper. (It is phenomenal in WvW still) So in reality its about 30/70 post patch. But, I understand that reaper isn't a duelist so I stick to my class niche as a janitor.

Edited by Dr Meta.3158
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1 hour ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

It depends on the skill of the player. I struggle vs people like ALIEN, ET, and Agent Ambi because they effectively use their ability to attack faster to counter my CC attempts and generally rely on winning the game of attrition to win despite how their builds are supposed to be bursty and necromancer as a whole is supposed to be attrition based. So paradoxically, I have to catch them to burst them and they have to out attrition me with again, the advantage of being able to attack faster than me makes things difficult. Everyone else, otherwise the bandwagon on any class really, dies easily because they all don't know how to actually play the class. Then they come here to complain instead of self learning or learning from the greats.

 

I would say normally it would be a 50/50 chance to win vs one of the top scrappers if it were not for stealth Gyro which is difficult to deal with if you have ports ready and your death sentence if you don't. Another problem case is that the magnet pull on toolkit is invisible if it is used out of stealth which that and hammer 5 can immediately use up your stunbreaks. Your only defense left is shroud which that scrapper build can eat through immediately meaning you must have a way to hamper their damage output if you go on the offense as you will lose blow for blow encounters with or without shroud and you must be immediately ready to change into a defensive advantage if they engage blocks because they can weave out and back into attacking range at a whim. Also chill only works if you run speed runes since superspeed outpaces everything else even while chilled and running speed runes requires some detrimental buildcraft for not the greatest results in spvp due to the nerfs aimed at renegade killing speed runes reaper. (It is phenomenal in WvW still) So in reality its about 30/70 post patch. But, I understand that reaper isn't a duelist so I stick to my class niche as a janitor.

Yeah when I face you, or other better reapers, I actually keep distance and use mortar or nades (depending on which I'm running).   When the reaper starts to close I  basically set off my shredder, spare capacitor and blast as an offensive defence of sorts.  If running nades I just always have to keep distance and break up assaults that get too close with thunderclap and a blast gyro, using stealth to open distance if that doesn't work.

Ambi is the best I've seen at using nades, blast, shredder.   Most can't do what he does... which is really due to his effectiveness with nades.  ET and Alien use bulwark and toolkit and E gun if I recall... so have very different builds then the flavour of the week one out there.

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Scrapper has plenty of damage.  The issue with scrapper at least to me is that it’s supposed to be a tanky spec, but it doesn’t have a single damage mitigation trait (for example Holosmith can reduce damage taken by 15% while in holo mode), and scrapper also has no way to gain permanent protection without inventions / thumper turret.  So while it generates a lot of barrier from dealing damage, it still gets smacked hard.  Scrapper recently got a self heal trait which is nice, but the healing amount is a bit low to compete with object in motion.  
 

In groups scrapper is great currently.  It has good utility with wells and deals good damage.  But when solo it’s the least tanky engineer spec which is a shame.  

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4 hours ago, Stx.4857 said:

Scrapper has plenty of damage.  The issue with scrapper at least to me is that it’s supposed to be a tanky spec, but it doesn’t have a single damage mitigation trait (for example Holosmith can reduce damage taken by 15% while in holo mode), and scrapper also has no way to gain permanent protection without inventions / thumper turret.  So while it generates a lot of barrier from dealing damage, it still gets smacked hard.  Scrapper recently got a self heal trait which is nice, but the healing amount is a bit low to compete with object in motion.  
 

In groups scrapper is great currently.  It has good utility with wells and deals good damage.  But when solo it’s the least tanky engineer spec which is a shame.  

Scrapper is tanky because of barriers. 5% of all your attacks convert into barriers. hammer sskill 4 which is a block, also gives u barrier and our main barrier skill Bulwark Gyro which gives barrier (+6k, +5k if u go on with Applied Force). 

Engineer is my fav class and played a decent amount of +203hrs on her as main. The most annoying thing i encounter is that we don't have any single stun-break skills on Well skills expect for Bypass Coating which we get from Blast Gyro. 

Our main trait Function Gyro is basically useles for ourselfs cause it's designed for complete support as to heal downed allies and finish downed enemies. Damage is also very weak to relay on and it has long cooldown. I don't see anything more special about scrapper as i see in Holosmith & mechanist.

As a elite spec we get special weapon and abilities. example Holosmith has super awasome looking Phantom Forge, heck even the name is awasome & not to mention the skills and ability. Mechanist! well, u know can have our own super awasome looking robot UwU.

But for scrapper, we have this small that does nothing but float and only works once every 25sec for others, not for supporting us. I would have being atleast satisfied if our little buddy gyro could attack every 1/4 with his laser beam or something. Same as auto attack with Skill 1 and to convert ??% of damage as barrier/healing and the ability Function Gyro could do a big BOOOM damage (5k damage (non-crit ofc)) every time we use the skill while also giving barrier to the allies in the area for that same amount.

 

Ahemm! imagination ran wild at the end there but yeah, scrapper is supposly tanky but at average like warrior...maybe abit less?.so yeah, have fun. 🙂

 

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13 hours ago, August.5934 said:

Scrapper is tanky because of barriers. 5% of all your attacks convert into barriers. hammer sskill 4 which is a block, also gives u barrier and our main barrier skill Bulwark Gyro which gives barrier (+6k, +5k if u go on with Applied Force). 

Engineer is my fav class and played a decent amount of +203hrs on her as main. The most annoying thing i encounter is that we don't have any single stun-break skills on Well skills expect for Bypass Coating which we get from Blast Gyro. 

Our main trait Function Gyro is basically useles for ourselfs cause it's designed for complete support as to heal downed allies and finish downed enemies. Damage is also very weak to relay on and it has long cooldown. I don't see anything more special about scrapper as i see in Holosmith & mechanist.

As a elite spec we get special weapon and abilities. example Holosmith has super awasome looking Phantom Forge, heck even the name is awasome & not to mention the skills and ability. Mechanist! well, u know can have our own super awasome looking robot UwU.

But for scrapper, we have this small that does nothing but float and only works once every 25sec for others, not for supporting us. I would have being atleast satisfied if our little buddy gyro could attack every 1/4 with his laser beam or something. Same as auto attack with Skill 1 and to convert ??% of damage as barrier/healing and the ability Function Gyro could do a big BOOOM damage (5k damage (non-crit ofc)) every time we use the skill while also giving barrier to the allies in the area for that same amount.

 

Ahemm! imagination ran wild at the end there but yeah, scrapper is supposly tanky but at average like warrior...maybe abit less?.so yeah, have fun. 🙂

 

The function gyro is very useful in pvp.  It can hit for 4-5 k at range with relative certainty and is useful in a burst.  It also drops a lighting field which grants stun to hammer 3, it also gives superspeed  when trained, which in turn gives fury and mightyhrough the GM trait.  It is a key part to current scrapper effectiveness in Pvp.  I often use stun gyro offensively rather than for its down state intended use.   There have been countless times it was the thing that did the final down to an opponent about to escape 

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33 minutes ago, shion.2084 said:

The function gyro is very useful in pvp.  It can hit for 4-5 k at range with relative certainty and is useful in a burst.  It also drops a lighting field which grants stun to hammer 3, it also gives superspeed  when trained, which in turn gives fury and mightyhrough the GM trait.  It is a key part to current scrapper effectiveness in Pvp.  I often use stun gyro offensively rather than for its down state intended use.   There have been countless times it was the thing that did the final down to an opponent about to escape 

That much i know too but it's about PVE as well, function gyro's dmg in PVE seem invisible to me on top of having long cooldown.

Hammers skills CD on PVP seems abit too long for some reason. Specially for a class that can't weapon swap.

(0 - 8 - 18 - 18 - 20) doesn't it seem abit too long?🤔

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59 minutes ago, August.5934 said:

That much i know too but it's about PVE as well, function gyro's dmg in PVE seem invisible to me on top of having long cooldown.

Hammers skills CD on PVP seems abit too long for some reason. Specially for a class that can't weapon swap.

(0 - 8 - 18 - 18 - 20) doesn't it seem abit too long?🤔

I believe hammer 3 had a 12 second cool down at one point.

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1 hour ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

I believe hammer 3 had a 12 second cool down at one point.

 

14 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

10 seconds actually.

it's 12ec in PVE and 18sec in PVP now.

I have tested the scrapper changes and everything and find the damage to be actually lacking while also having a very long cooldowns. 

 

holosmith is by far the best. Even better then Power mechanist. 

As  a scrapper mainer, it actually is abit frustrating when we are out DPS by almost everyone unless you break your fingers trying to use 50 skills/sec | example: 

 

Bro is just using 3 skills from the hammer and everything is from core engineer kits.

https://snowcrows.com/en/benchmarks/

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Okay guys, an very honest review. Scrapper Hammer skills needs increased damage. It's base damage is quite very low for a non-weapon swap class. 

 

| How i came to this understanding |

So, i main scrapper as always so i didn't quite noticed any damage difference but after i swap to many other professions and seeing many elite specs doing big number, i felt my scrapper was non-existance... We all know bladesworn (+120k crit), no need to say anything about him but about other classes... Guardian, ele, necro, thief, ranger does base +40k crits in less then 3sec. Reper's auto attacks litrally does 10k crit per hit and spin-to-win does +40k crit with Ez. Then there is my scrapper doing 5k crit (+8k on 25 might stack). Whirl does 9k - 13k solo (does 23k IF i get everysingle boons i can possibly have).

 

I felt so underwhelmed! 

Change my mind if you can.

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On 3/10/2023 at 6:32 AM, August.5934 said:

Okay guys, an very honest review. Scrapper Hammer skills needs increased damage. It's base damage is quite very low for a non-weapon swap class. 


Okay, lets see. I'm going assume you are talking about PvE, because I don't think reaper spin to wins in competitive modes, for 40k.

You ask for damage buffs for Scrapper hammer skills, and I assume your argument is, because:

On 3/4/2023 at 11:41 PM, August.5934 said:

As  a scrapper mainer, it actually is abit frustrating when we are out DPS by almost everyone unless you break your fingers trying to use 50 skills/sec | example: 


The problem is, hammer would need an unreasonably high damage boost on its attacks, for you to be able to drop your kits. Grenade kit will pretty much always be there, because it's our best pure damage kit. So your proposed change will either lead to 0 changes in the rotation, it would just lead to Scrapper doing way too much damage, or, if you boost it enough, it becoming brainless, because pressing anything, but hammer attacks would be a drop in dps... and we saw how that worked out for mechanist. That spec got the worst QoL nerfs in the game ever, to disincentivize 33% of the playerbase from playing it. Hope you like the idea of stationary Gyros, because that will happen the moment Scrapper becomes close to that popular.

Now, I said "Scrapper doing way too much damage", and you might have already started tippity tapping on your keyboard, so let me elaborate further:
If you look at what Scrapper has in its kit, it can do fairly well in mid ranged sceniaros, thanks to the grenades.
It shares superspeed with the whole party, which wouldn't sound like a great deal, it is a great utility tool. Did your Ranger greed too hard with their channelled skills? Now they take half second less with running out of the AoE. This superspeed also lets you handle mechanics pretty easily. Got ported on VG? Just zoom zoom back. Have to do cannons on Sabetha? Superspeed away. Have to bring out poison on Sloth? Just run for like 3 seconds, and you are good to go... the list goes on.
It has a free "mass" ress button. It is suboptimal to use it to ress multiple ppl, but it can still swing the fight around, if used well.
And scrapper is one of the most durable elit specs out there. We constantly generate barrier, our Scholar uptime is almost always the best in the group.
All of these make Scrapper a pretty well packed spec, when it comes to utility/stuff outside of raw damage output.

Now look at some of the examples you gave, to your argument:
 

On 3/10/2023 at 6:32 AM, August.5934 said:

We all know bladesworn (+120k crit)

Yes, Bladesworn has big damage spikes, good burst, it is optional for speed clearing comps, where you try to burst down the boss. It's avarage DPS, over a 4 mill golem fight is 40000 damage/second. That is less than 10% higher, than Scrappers 37100 avg. For this, you are trading in a huge deal of mobility. Those multiple second channels put you in danger, and since most of your damage comes from a single skill, whiffing that, will lead to a huge dps drop. Generally, this spec feels so unfun, that noone in my ~15ppl static tries to play it. They would rather play Hammer Spellbreaker.

 

 

On 3/10/2023 at 6:32 AM, August.5934 said:

Reper's auto attacks litrally does 10k crit per hit

Reapers auto attacks (if you are talking about greatsword), are slower, than Scrappers hammer swings. If you would avarage out, it would still deal somewhat higher avarage dps, than Scrapper, I'll give you that (Reaper does around 1,527* coeff/sec, Scrapper does 1,37*, if we only look at AA). But on the other hand, Reaper does a whopping 35400 avarage dps, on golem fights. And there is a strong emphasis on golem here. The moment there is incoming damage, your reaper shroud will run out quicker, you'll lose uptime for your strong hitter form. They also have really low ranged potential. On top of that, their damage curve is flat, so bringing this to a burst comp is trolling your team. You can be jealous of their 10k AAs, and their 40k spin to win attack, but don't think, that the grass is greener over there. There is a reason why only 1.5% of the players play this spec.

 

 

On 3/10/2023 at 6:32 AM, August.5934 said:

I felt so underwhelmed! 

Because you are comparing the highlights of certain specs, to the lowpoints, of your own. You do not look at the full picture. Scrapper is in the best spot it were ever been in. It outclasses one of your examples by miles, but you are blinded by the single big numbers, that those produce. On top of that, with how powercrept dps numbers are currently, you can bring anything you want, to pretty much anywhere. For example, we did our Dhuum CM clear with 2 Quick Scrappers in the team, me being one of them.
 

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On 3/10/2023 at 6:32 AM, August.5934 said:

Okay guys, an very honest review. Scrapper Hammer skills needs increased damage. It's base damage is quite very low for a non-weapon swap class. 

 

| How i came to this understanding |

So, i main scrapper as always so i didn't quite noticed any damage difference but after i swap to many other professions and seeing many elite specs doing big number, i felt my scrapper was non-existance... We all know bladesworn (+120k crit), no need to say anything about him but about other classes... Guardian, ele, necro, thief, ranger does base +40k crits in less then 3sec. Reper's auto attacks litrally does 10k crit per hit and spin-to-win does +40k crit with Ez. Then there is my scrapper doing 5k crit (+8k on 25 might stack). Whirl does 9k - 13k solo (does 23k IF i get everysingle boons i can possibly have).

 

I felt so underwhelmed! 

Change my mind if you can.

Reaper Hit the ceiling at around 35k dps while Scrapper's hit it at around 37k dps, and you're jealous of reaper damage output?

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4 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Reaper Hit the ceiling at around 35k dps while Scrapper's hit it at around 37k dps, and you're jealous of reaper damage output?

that out put is after pressing 50 butons/sec. And reaper did less cause Power difference. Watch this 2 player's gears and compare their power & Ferocity.

Reaper: 

Scrapper: 

 

And if u look at situtional times, Reaper outputs DPS much faster at start where as for scrapper, she needs a target that stays still and take on all the bombs and everything. Even in PVP, Reaper is better cause it can burst faster and keep high pressure all the time while also being tanky. 

Don't get me wrong, I am not jelouse. I am a reaper main too and i have reaper but i love my scrapper. And with the upcomming grenades nerfs, everything gonna change.

 

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