condi war - please can you work on improoving it

[DemonCrypto.6792]

Hello,

I love condition gameplay

I love warrior

 

But

 

I can't bring myself to play condition warrior .

 

Why?

Because when it come to condi build in pve anything outclasse warrior  , in fun, in fonctionnality, in Dps. (That at least is my opinion)

 

Maybe some of you find it fine today, maybe some have the same itchy feeling about it.

 

Anyway this is a real ask:

 

Can we please, dear Arenanet classes design team, have some sort of deep redesign update to bring Condition builds on warrior up to his competitors level of effectiveness, with conditions base gameplay.

 

(this is about PVE at least, i can't talk about PVP/WVW because i am not has well played on condi war build used there)

(this is for condition war in general -> because , if core improve -> specs improve  too | but  berserker should also be looked and tinkered with from my point of view)

(also condi quickwar < quickfb , until the scales between those isn't improoved quicknesse war will only be a speed runner quicksworn with a population use of 1% total, closing the way to an effective support war)

 

In other word have a good game, personnaly i'm gonna play condi on other classes.

thank you for reading.

[Fueki.4753]

Longbow and Torch need a lot more stacks of Burning (at least twice as much as now) and sword needs more stacks of Bleeding as well.

I did the last story instance of the latest story part on my condi Berserker, because Power Warrior simply didn't work well for me in the new content (and by that I mean it was even worse than in EoD). It was utterly lacking in output. Even an Elementalist camping Fire does more damage at this point.

But given that it's Warrior, the necessary changes are unlikely to happen.

[eXruina.4956]

yeah condi war is literally fluff compared to the other condi specs out there, its a joke when other classes can pile 20-39 burning or torment or whatever, or a full bar of kitten in under a second easy. 🤮

 

meanwhile that berserker is flailing that sword around at air while the projectiles hit nothing as the enemy casually strafes sideways. good stuff. 🤣

[eXruina.4956]

@Fueki.4753   all warrior elite specs with the exception of berserker literally had no conditions designed into their kit. while all other classes got a condi trait line and skills built into the kit of their elite spec.

Edited March 4, 2023 by eXruina.4956

[Shagie.7612]

Part of what's gonna make you feel bad playing it in PvE, particularly non-raid PvE, is the lack of quickness and alac hurt it really bad because it means you'll fall out of zerk where a very large portion of your damage comes from.

Its damage isn't significantly worse than other builds in a raid setting. It's selfish and replaceable and stuff sure but the actual numbers aren't that awful assuming you get a chance to pump.

A lot of PvE encounters make you drop out though, which really really hurts a class that has a "burst mode" that's permanent in the setting in which it's balanced around. 
It's why I think the rework back in... 2018 or 2019 or whatever was a poor idea, tbh. Hurt everything but raiding, basically.

[Fueki.4753]

5 hours ago, eXruina.4956 said:

@Fueki.4753   all warrior elite specs with the exception of berserker literally had no conditions designed into their kit. while all other classes got a condi trait line and skills built into the kit of their elite spec.

That's no excuse to not bring Arms, Berserker, Longbow and Sword up to the current day standards of conditions vomit.

It needs to happen.

4 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

Part of what's gonna make you feel bad playing it in PvE, particularly non-raid PvE, is the lack of quickness and alac hurt it really bad because it means you'll fall out of zerk where a very large portion of your damage comes from.

Its damage isn't significantly worse than other builds in a raid setting. It's selfish and replaceable and stuff sure but the actual numbers aren't that awful assuming you get a chance to pump.

A lot of PvE encounters make you drop out though, which really really hurts a class that has a "burst mode" that's permanent in the setting in which it's balanced around. 
It's why I think the rework back in... 2018 or 2019 or whatever was a poor idea, tbh. Hurt everything but raiding, basically.

It's times like these that it feels to me like they are actively trying to make Warrior players feel bad about their choices.

And the newest content specifically felt to me like they actively designed it to make it as especially hard as possible for Warriors. EoD was already bad in that regard with PvE enemies constantly moving out of melee range, so that self-rooted abilities are guaranteed to miss, but the new episode feels even worse.

If their future content continues to be like this, I don't see myself dropping as little as 5€ on it.

Edited March 4, 2023 by Fueki.4753

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

My sentiments on the matter are different. It's not the burning stacks output per se that's the issue, but balance of condi warrior's power budget that neeeds some nudging here and there.

1. King of Fires holds too much of it's damage hostage.
This is an issue in open world (especially when solo bossing), because Eternal Champion is the grandmaster you want and need, but the damage penalty for losing King of Fires is just too great. This is hardly the case for power builds when giving up on Bloody Roar is just fine, some damage is lost but that amount is acceptable if it means survival.

2. Might generation is an issue.
Might is the warrior boon , no warrior build should have to struggle with generating it. Yet here we are where power warr gets Forceful Greatsword, while condi zerker has to struggle with gutted pve version of the torch (Blaze Breaker being regular skill, while in competitive it's an ammo skill with 2 charges, Flames of War removing 2 condies instead of 3).

3. Core Bursts needs love.
It's not all berserk mode and primal bursts. There's downtimes when we're back to being regular warr, and the condi bursts suck.
Flurry has terrible hitbox, long cast time and questionable dps output given the cost, while longbow one pulses burns so infrequently it's not funny.

[Padrion.7382]

3 hours ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

1. King of Fires holds too much of it's damage hostage.
This is an issue in open world (especially when solo bossing), because Eternal Champion is the grandmaster you want and need, but the damage penalty for losing King of Fires is just too great. This is hardly the case for power builds when giving up on Bloody Roar is just fine, some damage is lost but that amount is acceptable if it means survival.

 

I actually just swapped King of Fires for Eternal Champion and reluctantly came to the conclusion it plays at least as smooth if not better than before in terms of doing champions in open world or soloing dungeons.

 

That is partly because if you have Expertise on your gear and Balthazar Runes you're already sitting on 90 % burning duration, so a part of that trait is wasted. And while detonating fire auras does a decent amount of damage it is another thing that needs attention in an already quite intense rotation. One that you'll not always be able to pull off due to cooldowns and/or conflicting piriorities.

 

On the other hand having a stability window when going berserk is a real blessing. In my case that's 4 seconds, in which I don't get knocked around and can deal damage with quickness up. Also, the second window when leaving is much appreciated.

 

I'm still contemplating if I should keep it that way or go back and find another solution for not kissing the dirt all the time 😉. Suggestions welcome!

[Fueki.4753]

17 minutes ago, Padrion.7382 said:

 

I actually just swapped King of Fires for Eternal Champion and reluctantly came to the conclusion it plays at least as smooth if not better than before in terms of doing champions in open world or soloing dungeons.

 

That is partly because if you have Expertise on your gear and Balthazar Runes you're already sitting on 90 % burning duration, so a part of that trait is wasted. And while detonating fire auras does a decent amount of damage it is another thing that needs attention in an already quite intense rotation. One that you'll not always be able to pull off due to cooldowns and/or conflicting piriorities.

 

On the other hand having a stability window when going berserk is a real blessing. In my case that's 4 seconds, in which I don't get knocked around and can deal damage with quickness up. Also, the second window when leaving is much appreciated.

 

I'm still contemplating if I should keep it that way or go back and find another solution for not kissing the dirt all the time 😉. Suggestions welcome!

I think that King of Fires should replace the Aura gain and detonation with stacks of Burning on critical hits and when using of Berserker skills.

Detonating Auras ist just busy work, when we could have the damage directly instead.

Edited March 4, 2023 by Fueki.4753

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

1 hour ago, Fueki.4753 said:

I think that King of Fires should replace the Aura gain and detonation with stacks of Burning on critical hits and when using of Berserker skills.

Detonating Auras ist just busy work, when we could have the damage directly instead.

I disagree. Your solution would make this trait very crit chance oriented, while aura detonation allows it to be stats agnostic.
 

[eXruina.4956]

6 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

That's no excuse to not bring Arms, Berserker, Longbow and Sword up to the current day standards of conditions vomit.

It needs to happen

 

i think you completely misunderstood what i was trying to say. 🤣

[Fueki.4753]

54 minutes ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

I disagree. Your solution would make this trait very crit chance oriented, while aura detonation allows it to be stats agnostic.

This trait already is depending on critical hit chance to create the Auras in the first place. My idea would just make it so the enemy receives stats of Burning instead of the Berserker gaining the Fire Aura.

And since Berserker skills would simply apply more Burning in my idea instead of detonating an Aura, thus by-passing the requirement to deal a critical hit to gain the required Aura, the trait change would actually rely less on critical hit chance.

This would also cause the trait to not be useless anymore, when playing at range with Longbow. But this also is the most likely reason why such a change (or something similar) will not be implemented.

Edited March 4, 2023 by Fueki.4753

[rainhelm.3827]

11 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

This trait already is depending on critical hit chance to create the Auras in the first place. My idea would just make it so the enemy receives stats of Burning instead of the Berserker gaining the Fire Aura.

And since Berserker skills would simply apply more Burning in my idea instead of detonating an Aura, thus by-passing the requirement to deal a critical hit to gain the required Aura, the trait change would actually rely less on critical hit chance.

This would also cause the trait to not be useless anymore, when playing at range with Longbow. But this also is the most likely reason why such a change (or something similar) will not be implemented.

Here is a better question to you then, why longbow then? Why doesn't the condi spec have a viable melee weapon combo? Why is it forced into longbow? That is the sole reason the spec doesn't have access to warrior's sprint, a partial reason to why sword and sword 2 is so useless because it doesn't serve as a root break and sword in general has %25 less movement speed than a power berserk running around with axes.

 

If I'm making all these annoying trade-offs to make the ranged condi weapon work, why am I not even allowed to make full use of its range? Don't you see the problem here? That I don't even have a choice in the matter?

Edited March 5, 2023 by rainhelm.3827

[Fueki.4753]

5 hours ago, rainhelm.3827 said:

Here is a better question to you then, why longbow then? Why doesn't the condi spec have a viable melee weapon combo? Why is it forced into longbow? That is the sole reason the spec doesn't have access to warrior's sprint, a partial reason to why sword and sword 2 is so useless because it doesn't serve as a root break and sword in general has %25 less movement speed than a power berserk running around with axes.

If I'm making all these annoying trade-offs to make the ranged condi weapon work, why am I not even allowed to make full use of its range? Don't you see the problem here? That I don't even have a choice in the matter?

I use both Sword/Torch and Longbow.

There are quite some fights I can't be or simply do not want to be in melee range. In those cases I switch to Longbow and King of Fires is practically dead in those moments.

As for any reason why Sword still is so bad, it may simply be that "Arenanet simply doesn't want it to be better" or any sentiments along those lines.

Also, I don't see any trade-offs with my trait change. It simply makes it easier to use, removes busy work to get its full potential and makes it more flexible to use.

[Jobber.6348]

Idk bout you guys, I've always wanted a minor trait in Arms to, by default, add Conditions to your Burst, more stacks based on Burst Stage. 

 

Stage 1: 3 stack Bleed

Stage 2 : 5 stack Bleed

Stage 3 : 8 stack Bleed

 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

9 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Idk bout you guys, I've always wanted a minor trait in Arms to, by default, add Conditions to your Burst, more stacks based on Burst Stage. 

 

Stage 1: 3 stack Bleed

Stage 2 : 5 stack Bleed

Stage 3 : 8 stack Bleed

 

Make it Torment then we can talk.

[Nomad.5204]

12 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Make it Torment then we can talk.

Agreed. Warrior desperately needs additional condis to apply. 

[eXruina.4956]

43 minutes ago, Nomad.5204 said:

Agreed. Warrior desperately needs additional condis to apply. 

either that or more stacks, even as mono condis go its output is quite bad, probably the worst among all mono condis.

[Fueki.4753]

1 hour ago, eXruina.4956 said:

either that or more stacks

It's not "or". It's "and".

Other condition builds can push out more conditions and more stacks. There's no defendable reason why Warrior can't have that as well.

Edited March 6, 2023 by Fueki.4753

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

6 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

It's not "or". It's "and".

Other condition builds can push out more conditions and more stacks. There's no defendable reason why Warrior can't have that as well.

I think that is more of an issue that the attacks we do have that push out high stacks are gated behind self roots, pulsing AoEs, and a block skill.

The change to FT was the right call. What we need for condi though is more than that. Things like:

Giving Flurry a non-projectile version of Flaming Flurry's animation, with 180 range on the melee strikes.

Giving Savage Leap 3 stacks of bleed if the target is suffering already from a movement impairing condition.

Making Riposte block the full channel, gives the counterattack as a flip over for 3s, and giving that flipover a 240 range PBAoE.

Giving Fan of Fire 5 arrows instead of 3, and turn it into a burn version of seven shot (obviously with only 5 arrows).

Arcing Arrow needs the burn stack in PvP/WvW as well.

Making Combustive Shot pulse every second rather than every 3s, but if it has to stay as every 3 seconds, then it needs more burn stacks per pulse.

Arms when it is reworked/polished by the Devs needs a trait repurposed to grant torment when inflicting bleed (short duration, stack for stack), or when applying a movement impairing condition (several stacks at once with a 10s CD) and Confusion on CC needs to be added back in. Confusion on CC not on Interrupt. The Confusion being on interrupt is what made warrior confusion so bad in the first place, and it being on CC would let Stability negate it for counterplay.

 

[stormemperor.3745]

Slap rabid + undead, dual maces+ dagger shield body blow. brrrrrrrr

Edited March 6, 2023 by stormemperor.3745

[dukefx.9730]

Funny thing is that condition Berserker (the most viable condi warrior) does more damage than power Berserker. Now imagine in what poor state power builds are if you are crying about condition builds being weak. Arenanet won't do anything, because they balance the game around warriors as baseline.

 

What I noticed is anything with high HP is meh, anything with low HP is beyond OP (unkillable elementalits, thieves that can easily 2 hit you out of the blue while taking on 5 players, and lets not forget the god itself, the guardian that has absolutely everything all at once in a single build, especially willbenders).

[Stx.4857]

I think Condi berserker is fun I’ve been playing it a long time.  But I would like them to change the burst skill.  It’s so silly shooting fireballs out of your sword in the air lol.  The sword burst skill I like except that it roots you in place.  I wish they would take the sword burst and primal burst, make them both melee range slashes but just up the damage a bit.  
 

Ranged damage is always nice to have, but yeah that burst animation is cringy to me. 

[Guy.9207]

I would like to play Condi Spellbreaker to be honest. It doesn't make much sense sure, but given the Full Counter, you can easily spam CC using Mace/Mace or Shield and Hammer to stun lock somebody, and Body Blow to inflict bleeding and weakness. If you run Aggressive Onslaught, you can spam CC so much it gets to like 20 stacks of bleeding or something.

[rainhelm.3827]

19 hours ago, dukefx.9730 said:

Funny thing is that condition Berserker (the most viable condi warrior) does more damage than power Berserker. Now imagine in what poor state power builds are if you are crying about condition builds being weak. Arenanet won't do anything, because they balance the game around warriors as baseline.

 

What I noticed is anything with high HP is meh, anything with low HP is beyond OP (unkillable elementalits, thieves that can easily 2 hit you out of the blue while taking on 5 players, and lets not forget the god itself, the guardian that has absolutely everything all at once in a single build, especially willbenders).

 

Condizerk does like 2k above powerzerk with raid buffs, against a dummy golem that does not move or do anything at all that would cleanse the conditions applied to it or move it out of the ground AoEs that condizerk is so dependant on.

 

Which if you actually played a condi spec at all instead of acting like you know anything at all (which you do not), you would know practical DPS differs heavily from dummy parses and power specs in general are much more practical in general gameplay where condizerk would need 10 button ramp-up for a mob that powerzerk would delete in a single button.

 

 You don't even understand what is being complained about in here. You are just complaining about other people because they are not complaining about what you are, with practically nothing of value to add to the conversation. Good job.