Doesn't anyone find it weird about Gorrik?

[Eekasqueak.7850]

1 hour ago, Omega.6801 said:

Maybe this chapter of history has something to do with it.
--> Meeting the Asura
Or maybe it's things like the renown heart below.
--> Help Brill Alliance study the Skritt

Groups within the Asura doing morally questionable things doesn't make them all bad. Or should I start saying all Sylvari are genocidal because some of them wiped out a peaceful centaur tribe and all humans are supremacists because the white mantle exists? 

Edited March 7, 2023 by Eekasqueak.7850

[Kalavier.1097]

16 hours ago, anninke.7469 said:

I don't know. Maybe if he said "no other way" after we've seen him actually trying to find one it would feel more genuine?

Because there are lives at stake, including the commanders. He's presenting the option to quickly deal with this threat before more people die.

The Oni was healing at the ley-line, but that doesn't mean it's limited to it. For all we (and they) know, it could come hunting for the commander because it's found a juicy meal in the trauma and emotions there.

13 hours ago, Omega.6801 said:

Gorrik has no actual concept of caring for others. He knows how to act as if he's caring and he knows what reaction is expected when someone dies f.e. but he doesn't actually feel it. Also he's an Asura, the least empathetic race in Tyria. As someone who really likes Sylvari, I will never let them live down what they did and given the chance, I'd burn every Rata and salt the scorched earth. Also, he's Inquest, the least caring of the Asura. So no, it's not strange, it's 100% in character. It's not cute, it's not awkward. It's just rats being rats.

Found the nightmare courtier who wants to murder everything that isn't Sylvari.

4 hours ago, maxwelgm.4315 said:

Gorrik is a former Inquest member and Inquest are the epitome of the "knowledge above all" Lovecraftian trope - he will solve something and find out what is going on with something no matter the cost. Still, I slightly agree with the OP in the sense that his character arc should already have gone beyond this sort of thing. It's indeed surprising that he would propose to use the Commander as demonic bait after what happened to Ankka. But the writers decided to keep it going I suppose.

Inquest are all about Asura supremacy as well as knowledge.

Gorrik is about half of that. This reads far more as Gorrik seeing a solution to the problem and presenting it, even regretfully because it won't be pleasant but it will solve the issue quickly if it works. He knows the commander would prefer that then maybes and waffling about as people die.

[maxwelgm.4315]

1 hour ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Because there are lives at stake, including the commanders. He's presenting the option to quickly deal with this threat before more people die.

The Oni was healing at the ley-line, but that doesn't mean it's limited to it. For all we (and they) know, it could come hunting for the commander because it's found a juicy meal in the trauma and emotions there.

Found the nightmare courtier who wants to murder everything that isn't Sylvari.

Inquest are all about Asura supremacy as well as knowledge.

Gorrik is about half of that. This reads far more as Gorrik seeing a solution to the problem and presenting it, even regretfully because it won't be pleasant but it will solve the issue quickly if it works. He knows the commander would prefer that then maybes and waffling about as people die.

It makes a lot of difference that the writers decided to have Gorrik suggest it instead of the Commander themselves. Yes our main character is the hero of the story and will always put others before themselves but they were pushed into that by someone else this time, which again, makes a lot of difference. It was a deliberate choice of the writers to show Gorrik worried about the Commander's mental state right on the first dialogue of the episode and then pull off him using this fact later on as his very first proposal of solution. Again, he was already half of that before EoD and perhaps already on the very first episode we meet him and Blish on - this is not a jab on the specific event that happened, I just kind of agree with the OP that it's literally "weird" they decided not to have him show character development in this instance after the rest of EoD happened. Basically Gorrik went from Inquest Scientist to Detective with little emotional change to show as justification for it.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

14 hours ago, Omega.6801 said:

Gorrik has no actual concept of caring for others. He knows how to act as if he's caring and he knows what reaction is expected when someone dies f.e. but he doesn't actually feel it. Also he's an Asura, the least empathetic race in Tyria. As someone who really likes Sylvari, I will never let them live down what they did and given the chance, I'd burn every Rata and salt the scorched earth. Also, he's Inquest, the least caring of the Asura. So no, it's not strange, it's 100% in character. It's not cute, it's not awkward. It's just rats being rats.

Also he's an Asura, the least empathetic race in Tyria.

Meanwhile, asura care deeply about their children and spouses, though their marriages are often done in contract form.
Yet the charr and norn cultures are full of active "abandonment" of their children in the hands of neighbors or strangers.

You accuse an entire species, simply because of what some minor individuals - including someone who would join the Inquest and try to control the Elder Dragons even through self-experimentation (Kudu) - did to a single individual. And ignoring the fact that the asura initially believed the sylvari to be a new breed animalistic plant monsters similar to oakhearts.

And Inquest aren't exactly "the least caring of the asura" - while their base design is to be amoral, rather than immoral, the Inquest is full of recruits who were given false promises and are effectively forced to stay in the rank and file. Gorrik may or may not be such, since he interned at a young age (unless he's several years older than Taimi in which that makes Blish an outright pedo given Blish had a crush on 14-year-old Taimi during 1327 AE, and Gorrik, the younger brother, was already an intern at Thaumanova in 1324 AE)

In general, I would say that the asura are the second most empathetic race, they just had a rough start with sylvari due to the ones who met them being the worst of their species. It's not like we're accusing all norn of being misogynists because of the Sons of Svanir.

[Kalavier.1097]

1 hour ago, maxwelgm.4315 said:

It makes a lot of difference that the writers decided to have Gorrik suggest it instead of the Commander themselves. Yes our main character is the hero of the story and will always put others before themselves but they were pushed into that by someone else this time, which again, makes a lot of difference. It was a deliberate choice of the writers to show Gorrik worried about the Commander's mental state right on the first dialogue of the episode and then pull off him using this fact later on as his very first proposal of solution. Again, he was already half of that before EoD and perhaps already on the very first episode we meet him and Blish on - this is not a jab on the specific event that happened, I just kind of agree with the OP that it's literally "weird" they decided not to have him show character development in this instance after the rest of EoD happened. Basically Gorrik went from Inquest Scientist to Detective with little emotional change to show as justification for it.

You have A: Gorrik, the scientist who has been observing and studying this stuff and can clearly see the link between the ONI and the commander.

and B: the commander who is trying to sort out if they are actually going crazy, or if something is manipulating them, and just came off a battle where reality was not what it should've been and has no real idea what exactly happened.

Why would the commander suggest an investigation into the deeper connection in this case? This is exactly the thing that I'd find odd for the commander to suggest shortly after waking up and still trying to process whatever happened.

 

Again, I saw exactly zero malice or uncaring nature from Gorrik in this entire episode. He cares, and he also wants to solve this problem as quickly as possible.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Gorrik has been very clearly on the spectrum since his introduction, which gives others the impression that he doesn't care about others and this is just a misunderstanding of how our minds work.

 

Gorrik suggests what he does because he cares--the Commander is the most renowned hero in the entire world, and wouldn't let Cantha just slip into a dark age over their own mental health. Gorrik knows the Commander will solve it one way or another, so he presents the most palpable way of doing so, with the most direct chance of success in order to minimise the fallout.

 

He's travelling with someone where "minimising the fallout" sometimes involves exploding dragons and gods. If anything, the story has shown its the Commander who is the reckless one.

Edited March 7, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[Kalavier.1097]

7 minutes ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

He's travelling with someone where "minimising the fallout" sometimes involves exploding dragons and gods. If anything, the story has shown its the Commander who is the reckless one.

Or that at times, searching for multiple solutions/options vs just doing the one presented causes more trouble.

[maxwelgm.4315]

1 hour ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

You have A: Gorrik, the scientist who has been observing and studying this stuff and can clearly see the link between the ONI and the commander.

and B: the commander who is trying to sort out if they are actually going crazy, or if something is manipulating them, and just came off a battle where reality was not what it should've been and has no real idea what exactly happened.

Why would the commander suggest an investigation into the deeper connection in this case? This is exactly the thing that I'd find odd for the commander to suggest shortly after waking up and still trying to process whatever happened.

 

Again, I saw exactly zero malice or uncaring nature from Gorrik in this entire episode. He cares, and he also wants to solve this problem as quickly as possible.

The Commander has been built up in every plotline since release as a psychological juggernaut able to face Gods, Elder Dragons and Liches within the realm of their own psyche (literally even, in some cases). Yes I absolutely expected the player character to keep pushing forward even if in the complete dark regarding what is real. If anything the writers could have subverted their own baseline theme precisely by having the Commander try that out and actually fail and needing to be rescued in some manner. Gorrik on the other hand received even snark remarks from Rama in this very episode about not rushing to conclusions and yet this is somehow how the episode was sorted out, with a "quick solution".

Also though many have implied this I don't really think Gorrik necessarily had any malice, nor would it be a problem if he had actually - the issue is from a writing standpoint only, that there is no payoff to the supposed deep development he went through due to seeing Ankka turn out that way and also from facing the Dragonvoid. Did his actions make sense? Yes, if all I've played was LW4 and just got to know Gorrik a little more from acquiring my Roller Beetle.

[Kalavier.1097]

43 minutes ago, maxwelgm.4315 said:

The Commander has been built up in every plotline since release as a psychological juggernaut able to face Gods, Elder Dragons and Liches within the realm of their own psyche (literally even, in some cases). Yes I absolutely expected the player character to keep pushing forward even if in the complete dark regarding what is real. If anything the writers could have subverted their own baseline theme precisely by having the Commander try that out and actually fail and needing to be rescued in some manner. Gorrik on the other hand received even snark remarks from Rama in this very episode about not rushing to conclusions and yet this is somehow how the episode was sorted out, with a "quick solution".
 

The commander in all honestly has very rarely faced enemies directly using their own mind and traumas against them. Yes, it has come up, but rarely in such a manner.

Also, I'll note this re-reading the dialogue.

A: Gorrik states that they'll eliminate it or lure it away from the ley-line.

B: He states it will be unpleasant because the demon is particularly attracted to the commander. Again, this is something that only makes sense coming from him because the commander had very little idea of how severe, if at all anybody else was getting hit. It turns out: Nobody else got hit by that type of attack at all.

C : "fighting it will require neuro-parasitological investigation."  aka, they are going to look into it's connection to the commander.

Commander agrees to this plan. I'll note he never once implies the Commander can't handle it.

He then comments on worries about the commander's health, and how the demon was latching onto more raw emotions and that's the aspect they'll have to use to their advantage.

He also comments on appreciation of the commander hitting new levels as he's trying to be in charge.

 

It's not a quick solution, but it is a solid lead with evidence behind it that holds promise of working for the goal of luring the oni away or killing it. We are, after all, looking at a case where Gorrik has had an undisclosed amount of time to look at the facts and think about it while the Commander blacked out and was dragged all the way to the surface. The Commander hasn't even had time to think about what to do next.

[DarcShriek.5829]

Gottik is an asura, therefor he's creepy.  It's their natural state.

[anninke.7469]

15 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Because there are lives at stake, including the commanders. He's presenting the option to quickly deal with this threat before more people die.

The Oni was healing at the ley-line, but that doesn't mean it's limited to it. For all we (and they) know, it could come hunting for the commander because it's found a juicy meal in the trauma and emotions there.

You might be right about this. However, I'd still like him (or anyone) to add something like "we'll try to find another way" instead of only stating he wish there was one and implying there's not and deal with it however you can.

[anninke.7469]

10 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Commander agrees to this plan. I'll note he never once implies the Commander can't handle it.

Commander agrees - you mean with the "If that what it takes" line sounding so painfully exhausted and hopeless, basically right after regaining consciousness? Or is there another line I missed?

"He never once implies..." - Do you mean Gorrik? If so, his trust in the Commander is flattering but how the heck can he know for sure?

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On 3/7/2023 at 1:48 PM, maxwelgm.4315 said:

The Commander has been built up in every plotline since release as a psychological juggernaut able to face Gods, Elder Dragons and Liches within the realm of their own psyche (literally even, in some cases). Yes I absolutely expected the player character to keep pushing forward even if in the complete dark regarding what is real.

I would disagree about the psychological juggernaut. The fact that the themes of self-doubt and guilt are constantly reoccurring rather shows that the Commander does suffer and are affected by these negative mental states, they just ignore them - and as any psychologist worth their salt can tell you, doing so only makes things worse later down the line. The Commander pushes on regardless because ever since Season 3 Episode 5, the literal world was at stake every, single, time. They didn't have a choice but to keep pushing forward if they didn't want everything they knew to be destroyed around them. Even in the "down times" like the beginning of IBS or fighting Joko, the fate of entire nations and populations were on the line.
This time, however, the casualties expand only as far as the Jade Brotherhood in this one (albeit large) mine. For for the first time in over 5 years, we have a plot that isn't a world ending threat.
So there's no pressure to keep slugging along, there's no urgency, no allies who's lives are at risk, no demands. This is the first time since Season 3 began that the Commander is choosing to get involved.

So it makes perfect sense to me that the Commander is simply functioning differently.

[Kalavier.1097]

20 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I would disagree about the psychological juggernaut. The fact that the themes of self-doubt and guilt are constantly reoccurring rather shows that the Commander does suffer and are affected by these negative mental states, they just ignore them - and as any psychologist worth their salt can tell you, doing so only makes things worse later down the line. The Commander pushes on regardless because ever since Season 3 Episode 5, the literal world was at stake every, single, time. They didn't have a choice but to keep pushing forward if they didn't want everything they knew to be destroyed around them. Even in the "down times" like the beginning of IBS or fighting Joko, the fate of entire nations and populations were on the line.
This time, however, the casualties expand only as far as the Jade Brotherhood in this one (albeit large) mine. For for the first time in over 5 years, we have a plot that isn't a world ending threat.
So there's no pressure to keep slugging along, there's no urgency, no allies who's lives are at risk, no demands. This is the first time since Season 3 began that the Commander is choosing to get involved.

So it makes perfect sense to me that the Commander is simply functioning differently.

Indeed. They also perhaps aren't as mentally prepared as they have been in the past because it's just an issue in a mine, not an active invasion or threat.

So when they start getting the mental attacks, and nobody else comments on hearing things? It hits the "Am I really going crazy?" button.

[Jimbru.6014]

On 3/8/2023 at 2:29 PM, Kalavier.1097 said:

Indeed. They also perhaps aren't as mentally prepared as they have been in the past because it's just an issue in a mine, not an active invasion or threat.

So when they start getting the mental attacks, and nobody else comments on hearing things? It hits the "Am I really going crazy?" button.

They're not as mentally prepared because what's going on isn't just a physical threat of death. People in the real world can actually deal with overt physical threats surprisingly well when necessary; we've only been doing it ever since humans first evolved. What's going on is two things:

- The Enemy (whatever it is) is attacking everyone differently that most other threats we've faced, by way of intrusive thoughts and emotional weaknesses. It's like Jormag's whispers, but much more aggressive. Perhaps what Mordremoth did turning the Sylvari into the Mordrem might be a better comparison. But it's different from both of those in that The Enemy isn't necessarily trying to gain servitors; rather, it seems to be hungry and feeding off everyone's internal chaos and fear.

- If you read the chapter text in your story journal, The Commander STARTS the story physically and mentally exhausted, and Gorrik even comments on it in the opening scene. All the intrusive thoughts and emotions, the mourning, the self-blaming, the what-iffing and so forth that The Commander has put off processing for years while fighting the EDs , are returning in the post-ED silence and demanding their turn. Basically, The Commander has severe, untreated PTSD, and The Enemy is targeting that because The Commander is probably the strongest source of such raw mental negativity in the area.

 

[Kalavier.1097]

2 hours ago, Jimbru.6014 said:

They're not as mentally prepared because what's going on isn't just a physical threat of death. People in the real world can actually deal with overt physical threats surprisingly well when necessary; we've only been doing it ever since humans first evolved. What's going on is two things:

- The Enemy (whatever it is) is attacking everyone differently that most other threats we've faced, by way of intrusive thoughts and emotional weaknesses. It's like Jormag's whispers, but much more aggressive. Perhaps what Mordremoth did turning the Sylvari into the Mordrem might be a better comparison. But it's different from both of those in that The Enemy isn't necessarily trying to gain servitors; rather, it seems to be hungry and feeding off everyone's internal chaos and fear.

- If you read the chapter text in your story journal, The Commander STARTS the story physically and mentally exhausted, and Gorrik even comments on it in the opening scene. All the intrusive thoughts and emotions, the mourning, the self-blaming, the what-iffing and so forth that The Commander has put off processing for years while fighting the EDs , are returning in the post-ED silence and demanding their turn. Basically, The Commander has severe, untreated PTSD, and The Enemy is targeting that because The Commander is probably the strongest source of such raw mental negativity in the area.

 

Yeah, the ONI seems to be seeking out juicy meals, and the haze as a by-product is just causing people to go crazy. Or maybe those are the lesser ONI.

Also interesting about the story journal part, I'll have to re-read it overall as it often does have interesting extra details. I liked the part of getting a nap on the train to Gyala.

[Gibson.4036]

On 3/7/2023 at 11:46 PM, DarcShriek.5829 said:

Gottik is an asura, therefor he's creepy.  It's their natural state.

Big, child-like eyes, cute button noses, sharp, pointy teeth.

I love my little goblins.