PvP Build Limitations

[tyler.1653]

I really don't understand why class builds are limited within PvP gameplay. Not only does this force anet to need a different balance mindset for PvP, apart from wvw & pve, but it also makes it difficult for players since you are creating two different metas; one for pve/wvw, and one for pvp. Players going from wvw to pvp tend to have a hard time adapting because of this and vice versa.

 

It is really not hard to see how a new player could get confused and turn away from the game after seeing the differences between pvp, pve, and wvw stat setups. All stats, runes, and sigils should be allowed in pvp. That would make it significantly more inviting. I can understand why some would want to keep infusions out, so that is fine but seriously there is so much missed potential in PvP just because of countless restricted builds. Sure it may come with some initial issues, but you would then have a stronger foundational meta within the game to balance off of overall.

 

What do you think?

[Zuko.7132]

19 minutes ago, tyler.1653 said:

I really don't understand why class builds are limited within PvP gameplay. Not only does this force anet to need a different balance mindset for PvP, apart from wvw & pve, but it also makes it difficult for players since you are creating two different metas; one for pve/wvw, and one for pvp. Players going from wvw to pvp tend to have a hard time adapting because of this and vice versa.

 

It is really not hard to see how a new player could get confused and turn away from the game after seeing the differences between pvp, pve, and wvw stat setups. All stats, runes, and sigils should be allowed in pvp. That would make it significantly more inviting. I can understand why some would want to keep infusions out, so that is fine but seriously there is so much missed potential in PvP just because of countless restricted builds. Sure it may come with some initial issues, but you would then have a stronger foundational meta within the game to balance off of overall.

 

What do you think?

No. Certain stat combos are just broken.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

24 minutes ago, tyler.1653 said:

I really don't understand why class builds are limited within PvP gameplay. Not only does this force anet to need a different balance mindset for PvP, apart from wvw & pve, but it also makes it difficult for players since you are creating two different metas; one for pve/wvw, and one for pvp. Players going from wvw to pvp tend to have a hard time adapting because of this and vice versa.

 

It is really not hard to see how a new player could get confused and turn away from the game after seeing the differences between pvp, pve, and wvw stat setups. All stats, runes, and sigils should be allowed in pvp. That would make it significantly more inviting. I can understand why some would want to keep infusions out, so that is fine but seriously there is so much missed potential in PvP just because of countless restricted builds. Sure it may come with some initial issues, but you would then have a stronger foundational meta within the game to balance off of overall.

 

What do you think?

Generally speaking yea, this is mainly the reason why balance/diversity is worse in pvp then it is in say WvW and PVE… despite builds being massively more powerful in those settings.

 

Tutns out that restricting and deleting the combination space of the game, actually allows dominate builds to more easily dominate the space because there are less competitors around to shut down builds when they arise in a meta. A lesson to learn from biological evolution.

 

Recently however, Anet has made a change in the wind, and some of the changes they’ve made…although not terrible, are a lot better than what was happening before which arguably would have destroyed the game if it had continued without resistance.

 

You can imagine that with what they were doing before, like deleting all the amulets…that the end result was going to be everyone using a single amulet…and it’s obvious to anyone with their brain stem that this isn’t balance at all… but some perversion of it.
 

So where we are at now…it’s not perfect but well… it could have been worse…much much worse…and for that I’m grateful. Doesn’t mean Anet should still get a free pass…they still have tons of work to do and their not out of the woods yet.

[Bazsi.2734]

8 hours ago, tyler.1653 said:

I really don't understand why class builds are limited within PvP gameplay. Not only does this force anet to need a different balance mindset for PvP, apart from wvw & pve, but it also makes it difficult for players since you are creating two different metas; one for pve/wvw, and one for pvp. Players going from wvw to pvp tend to have a hard time adapting because of this and vice versa.

 

It is really not hard to see how a new player could get confused and turn away from the game after seeing the differences between pvp, pve, and wvw stat setups. All stats, runes, and sigils should be allowed in pvp. That would make it significantly more inviting. I can understand why some would want to keep infusions out, so that is fine but seriously there is so much missed potential in PvP just because of countless restricted builds. Sure it may come with some initial issues, but you would then have a stronger foundational meta within the game to balance off of overall.

 

What do you think?

This is how things used to be at first. You could build basicly anything you wanted, even mix runes at first.

But A-net started doing lazy balance: if a stat/rune combo was too OP in PvP, well just remove the amulet/rune they used and problem solved. It started out as a one time exception, turned into more and more amulets removed... then came a huge patch removing EVERY amulet with expertise or concentration on it, also EVERY thoughness, healing power, vitality mainstat one. Runes got gutted likewise.

This was what turned me into a sh*tposter... we'll never have balance like the late days of HoT, the devs aren't listenting, they do not care. We are "that one PvP fan in the back", a liability forcing them to pretend to maintain this mode. To this way they are doing radical changes which absolutely devastate PvP, and let those fester for months before undoing/fixing them. Just one example: giving vindicator a second dodge, but leaving endurance regen as it is. Over months, they nerfed it by 90% and it's still somewhat overperforming.
As a dev, how do you make something 10 times as strong as it should be? What are you getting paid for? Given how making such mistakes have no consequences, PvP must not matter at all.

So yeah, you're mostly right: separating PvP from the other gamemodes is bad. Having its own balance is basicly a barrier against incoming new players. Also, noone cares(noone who could change it), this is how things will be.

[Hotride.2187]

11 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Generally speaking yea, this is mainly the reason why balance/diversity is worse in pvp then it is in say WvW and PVE… despite builds being massively more powerful in those settings.

Ah yes, the diversity of cele+antitoxin runes in wvw + condi/cleanse sigils, and builds that can vomit boons and condis. Exceptional balance and diversity right there. Totally not like I'm fighting the same build each time.

Edited March 6, 2023 by Hotride.2187

[Shao.7236]

The diversity didn't fair any better before than it does now.

The majority of players left are only casual enough to log on, consume new content then rinse and repeat later at some point.

Even if you gave people the ability to play whatever they want, PvE players don't care and never will risk having to be more challenged than having a rotation on repeat with their MMO brains.

GW2 only attracts players that have nothing better because the game has no incentive to keep you playing more than you'd wish. It's only motivation is envisioned by thinking players will stay to hang out somewhere while buying gemstore content.

Any MMOs are historically never good for PvP because of the type of players it attracts and GW2 trying to disguise itself as one is why it's PvP never took off but should have because this game is a good balance of pushing any type of game genre without being exclusive to what most other competitive games do, such as reaction time or being fast at anything. At most it has real time decision making that compares to every day life tasks to chain together in an effective matter that is enjoyable, to connect dots.

Anet decided that not only sticking to the crowd that it will never fully please is better for their investors, they will never put any effort into attracting players towards the game modes that make it shine more than all the other games out there.

People don't care for diversity, there is no diversity in PvE or WvW either. Only enough players to keep the game alive, where most content can keep itself alive for an end goal that doesn't hold players in their ecosystem and only has the chance to attract them back next expansion.

If PvP was to allow player anonymity, I think that a chunk of players would be less afraid to try.

Edited March 6, 2023 by Shao.7236

[Myror.7521]

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 to be fair in terms of build Options your totaly right. More Stats would Bring obviosly more Builds in. But Problem would also be to Balance all that kitten Out. So I prefer the PvP how it actually is over how it works in PvE cause gues what IT would end in a hard Bunker Meta where everyone is playing on cele Stats....

 

Lets say in theory your right but in the end your wrong cause it would mean cele be strongest stat Comb cause of how classes work. Just Take a Look at WvW where roamer i knowcomplanes about cele Stats Just for a reason obv. xd

 

Also ..... I still Thing that the 4stats Amulet Nerf Back than was a Bit harsh and force peops more in "If you want Power Play Berserker" Things xd

 

 

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

3 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

People don't care for diversity, there is no diversity in PvE or WvW either.

people do care they just don’t know it, because it’s such an opaque abstract thing. It’s not immediately obvious that having many meaningful choices means better balance.

 

And alas many of the changes made to pvp and WvW were the same, and WvW was dragged along for the ride as pvp was (reduction of healing and damage, 300s cooldowns, removing builds and so on)… it’s just that pvp was in a far worse of a situation because of the amulet situation.

 

but anyway I’m not exactly defending the game state. My whole thing is that the problems with gw2 are deeply fundamental to how skills are designed and so you will see problems in all of the modes (PVE, WvW, PvP) but comparatively, the order would be PVE>WvW>PvP if we are talking about balance/diversity/enjoyment level of the game…which is not exactly a clean comparison either so ya.

 

 

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

1 hour ago, Pati.2438 said:

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 to be fair in terms of build Options your totaly right. More Stats would Bring obviosly more Builds in. But Problem would also be to Balance all that kitten Out. So I prefer the PvP how it actually is over how it works in PvE cause gues what IT would end in a hard Bunker Meta where everyone is playing on cele Stats....

 

Lets say in theory your right but in the end your wrong cause it would mean cele be strongest stat Comb cause of how classes work. Just Take a Look at WvW where roamer i knowcomplanes about cele Stats Just for a reason obv. xd

here is what is important about all this:

 

For every squishy meteor storm ele, there’s a healing minstrel tanky boy, and for every minstrel tanky boy there is a vipers spicy man around the corner…for every vipers spicy man there’s spooky thef hiding…for every spooky thief thiers a dh trapperman fishin… 

 

At least that’s how it’s supposed to work. Builds naturally arise to popularity to fulfill some purpose we create for ourselves. That purpose is to meaningfully benefit the user…whether that’s healing a squishy dude, or killing tanky boys, viper mans, or spooky thefs and so on…

 

But if you start deleting stuff…making builds useless or meaningless to users in some way…then you are breaking this chain. and this causes some boys to run around without someone around the corner to counter them.

 

It’s not an obvious conclusion…it takes a broad view of the game to see how particular actions create these kinds of consequences and we see and we saw that happen in real time to the games balance state.

 

About cele, it is by its very nature a “perfectly balanced” stat combination, but funny enough its “overpowered.” Surely this is also a sign that “making everything the same” is not balanced cause the most mathematically balanced stat set I happens to be OP. This is ironic…in a comical way… and points is in the direction that balance must be more complex.

 

Quote

But Problem would also be to Balance all that kitten Out.

 

Speaking of complex, there’s a whole layer of stuff to speak on with this. Like you said, the more stuff they add to the game, the harder it will be to continue doing balance in the man-made way that they are trying to do…and the more the natures balance of things will take over. The game will become too complicated to parametrize meaningfully (I mean it already is far too complex to parametrize meaningfully…) and any change they make, will yield unpredictable consequences always. The more expansions they add to the game, the more correlations there will be within the space of skill correlations, and this correlation space grows exponential with each skill…making prediction and therefor man-made changes an exponentially more and more difficult problem.

 

They will be forced to develop the correct balance philosophy eventually…working with natures balance rather than against it…numerical adjustment will fall by the wayside…. And more valuable changes (designing mechanics and letting them go into the wild) will be the new paradigm.

Edited March 6, 2023 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Shao.7236]

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684MMORPG players don't speak average, they speak in min/max exclusively and thus why no one cares for how unique as GW2 can be.

Put as many builds as you can possibly have be balanced, the one with fewer steps will always be favored even if it means losing options by introducing an atom sized difference.

Numbers even though skill also has it's place don't matter to the typical player anet tries to attract. They also have 0, absolutely 0 marketing towards the combat of the game which is it's biggest strength.

You and I can see that but anyone that logs on for a daily or just new content doesn't see that. None of the game potential compared it's competition.