Raids are worth developing

[Einsof.1457]

Unlike other mmos, gw2 raids are not designed to be outdated in a few months. Thousands of players (including myself) still do wing 1 and look forward to completing wing 1 (and others) every week. The design focusing around basically infinite and relevant replayability lends credence to the idea that raids are worth developing, and worth pouring resources into. How many times do players repeat story content compared to how many times players repeat raids? It's very clear that raids along with dragons end vanilla difficulty open world events should be the priority of development. It's a no brainer. Nothing got the player base (and greater mmo community) more hyped than new raid wings. New story is not exciting, and is a waste of resources unless it's a part of a raid or other content that has unique and interesting mechanics, enemies, and environments.

Edited March 7, 2023 by Einsof.1457

[Stx.4857]

Not that these forums represent a small fraction of the actual player base, but I would be interested to see a poll of how many players actually raid, or enjoy raiding in this game.  Going by some of the analysis on podcasts like TeaTime, it’s a very small portion of the player base.   

[Fueki.4753]

I doubt there are enough players interested in raiding to justify spending the necessary resources on it.

 

[Einsof.1457]

1 hour ago, Fueki.4753 said:

I doubt there are enough players interested in raiding to justify spending the necessary resources on it.

 

My point is that raiders/fractal players/wvw hardcores/legendary enthusiasts, are the ones that keep playing. They are the core Guild wars 2 player that plays almost every day and are the demographic most likely to buy gems on occasion and are near guaranteed to buy every expansion that comes out on day 1.

Yet, the type of player that logs in once in a blue moon to catch up on story and then complain on the forum about how they want the best stuff without any effort before going back to whatever else they do, seems to be who anet loves to cater to. It doesn't take a genius to see which demographic is worth prioritizing.

At the end of the day, would you rather pour resources into keeping your core chunk of players happy and spending money on gems, hyping the game to others, making content, etc. or the once-in-a-blue-moon casual story people who whine about not being able to get legendary armor in open world or spending a few bucks on an expansion? 

If I was head of arena net I would rather have 1 player who buys gems every month who raids, than 50 that log in every now and then, never buys gems, and complains on the forum about not getting enough freebies. That's not to say non raiders don't buy gems. I am just addressing probabilities. 

Edited March 7, 2023 by Einsof.1457

[Fueki.4753]

42 minutes ago, Einsof.1457 said:

My point is that raiders/fractal players/legendary enthusiasts, are the ones that keep playing. They are the core Guild wars 2 player that plays almost every day and are the demographic most likely to buy gems on occasion and are near guaranteed to buy every expansion that comes out on day 1.

Is that actually the truth though?

Do you have official statistics that proof these players actually make of the majority of time played in the game, or is this just an educated guess? I have yet to see any of these. Also, where's the proof that those players actually buy more gems with real money?

Because I can equally claim that the majority of play time is spent by the players who mostly diddle and dabble in the open world, not caring about being efficient, forming parties or doing instanced content and that open world players buy more gems with real money.

42 minutes ago, Einsof.1457 said:

Yet, the type of player that logs in once in a blue moon to catch up on story and then complain on the forum about how they want the best stuff without any effort before going back to whatever else they do, seems to be who anet loves to cater to. It doesn't take a genius to see which demographic is worth prioritizing.

I don't like the complains about certain exclusive rewards and begging for alternate (and easier) access to said rewards, like those about open world legendary gear or Gift of Battle from PvE, either. But that doesn't relate to the issue of whether longer instanced content is profitable or not.

42 minutes ago, Einsof.1457 said:

At the end of the day, would you rather pour resources into keeping your core chunk of players happy and spending money on gems, hyping the game to others, making content, etc. or the once-in-a-blue-moon casual story people who whine about not being able to get legendary armor in open world or spending a few bucks on an expansion?

This again is debatable what part of the player base actually is the "core" chunk. It may be the average open world enthusiasts who occasionally dip into instanced content, or it may be the instanced lovers as a whole group. But I don't think it's the few percent that regularly do raids. And this thread is specifically about raids, not other types of instanced content.

Equally, I doubt it's the beggars who want to get rewards for low to no effort (which I distinctly differentiate from the aforementioned average open world enjoyers).

42 minutes ago, Einsof.1457 said:

If I was head of arena net I would rather have 1 player who buys gems every month who raids, than 50 that log in every now and then, never buys gems, and complains on the forum about not getting enough freebies. That's not to say non raiders don't buy gems. I am just addressing probabilities. 

Then we are all glad you are not the head of Arenanet, because there far more nuances when it comes to decision-making than just what you wrote there.

And for all we can see (unless you somehow got access to official statistics), raids didn't proof profitable enough to justify the resources that are needed to spend on their creation. By all appearances, Strike Missions, Open World and Story seem to be more profitable.

But maybe we'll get a surprise drop of Wing 8 in the future, given that they also wrote about a new fractal when they announced the new content release model.

Edited March 7, 2023 by Fueki.4753

[Stx.4857]

1 hour ago, Einsof.1457 said:

My point is that raiders/fractal players/wvw hardcores/legendary enthusiasts, are the ones that keep playing. They are the core Guild wars 2 player that plays almost every day and are the demographic most likely to buy gems on occasion and are near guaranteed to buy every expansion that comes out on day 1.

Yet, the type of player that logs in once in a blue moon to catch up on story and then complain on the forum about how they want the best stuff without any effort before going back to whatever else they do, seems to be who anet loves to cater to. It doesn't take a genius to see which demographic is worth prioritizing.

At the end of the day, would you rather pour resources into keeping your core chunk of players happy and spending money on gems, hyping the game to others, making content, etc. or the once-in-a-blue-moon casual story people who whine about not being able to get legendary armor in open world or spending a few bucks on an expansion? 

If I was head of arena net I would rather have 1 player who buys gems every month who raids, than 50 that log in every now and then, never buys gems, and complains on the forum about not getting enough freebies. That's not to say non raiders don't buy gems. I am just addressing probabilities. 

Where are you getting your data from that suggests that hardcore endgame players are the core player base of the game, and spend the most on gems?  I would bet that’s completely wrong.  
 
Casual players are much more likely to buy gems because they don’t know how to make gold in this game and convert that gold into gems.  Also casual players probably spend a lot more gems on cosmetics like mounts, outfits, unique weapon skins etc. because they won’t have as many unique or good looking armor / weapon skins from in game.  

[Einsof.1457]

34 minutes ago, Stx.4857 said:

Where are you getting your data from that suggests that hardcore endgame players are the core player base of the game, and spend the most on gems?  I would bet that’s completely wrong.  
 
Casual players are much more likely to buy gems because they don’t know how to make gold in this game and convert that gold into gems.  Also casual players probably spend a lot more gems on cosmetics like mounts, outfits, unique weapon skins etc. because they won’t have as many unique or good looking armor / weapon skins from in game.  

yeah you're probably right. real talk I just want wing 8 and I don't think it would be a catastrophe to anet if they made it. This latest patch though really is a head scratcher for me. People I haven't seen log on in MONTHS logged on for 2 hours and nope out after getting caught up in story and doing the meta once. Are these the types of people that should be catered to? Why not use those resources to make good repayable content instead of a one time 2 hour thing? As I mentioned in the original post, thousands still do wing 1. Content that is almost 10 years old.  We need more content that can stand the test of time. 

Edited March 7, 2023 by Einsof.1457

[Stx.4857]

8 minutes ago, Einsof.1457 said:

yeah you're probably right. real talk I just want wing 8 and I don't think it would be a catastrophe to anet if they made it. This latest patch though really is a head scratcher for me. People I haven't seen log on in MONTHS logged on for 2 hours and nope out after getting caught up in story and doing the meta once. Are these the types of people that should be catered to? Why not use those resources to make good repayable content instead of a one time 2 hour thing? As I mentioned in the original post, thousands still do wing 1. Content that is almost 10 years old.  We need more content that can stand the test of time. 

I don’t know the metrics, but it would appear A-Net feels the best way to cater to their overall player base is with strikes, fractals, and open world maps.  I’m not against raids at all, I used to be a huge raider when I was younger and had more time. 
 

Also I feel like all the content in this game can be enjoyed when replayed.  There is so much open world content out there, and ten years of story.  Sometimes I’ll just replay an old part of the game that I haven’t done in a long time or go run a map I haven’t been to in awhile but on a new character. Wvw and spvp never get old for those that like PvP, as long as the professions keep getting updates to keep combat fresh.  
 

I think what it comes down to is a lack of communication.  A-net kind of dropped raids and never said why.  Or at least I don’t remember why, it’s been too long.  

[Einsof.1457]

4 hours ago, Stx.4857 said:

I don’t know the metrics, but it would appear A-Net feels the best way to cater to their overall player base is with strikes, fractals, and open world maps.  I’m not against raids at all, I used to be a huge raider when I was younger and had more time. 
 

Also I feel like all the content in this game can be enjoyed when replayed.  There is so much open world content out there, and ten years of story.  Sometimes I’ll just replay an old part of the game that I haven’t done in a long time or go run a map I haven’t been to in awhile but on a new character. Wvw and spvp never get old for those that like PvP, as long as the professions keep getting updates to keep combat fresh.  
 

I think what it comes down to is a lack of communication.  A-net kind of dropped raids and never said why.  Or at least I don’t remember why, it’s been too long.  

I hear what you are saying. The problem is that raids are the only content that feels like a dangerous adventure with your friends. Open world is fine (but is severely lacking in challenge, sadly), but there's almost no social aspect outside of commanders barking orders sometime. Fractals are great little mini dungeons that deserve more love. Strikes are lazy 10 man encounters because they 1. tell no extra story 2. have no feeling of progression from one encounter to the next 3. have no sense of adventure 4. are rehashes of story instance fights. Raids are awesome because they are unique, feel like an adventure, have challenging and interesting mechanics for the most part, and are memorable, among other reasons. That type of content is not replaceable by strikes. 

Edited March 8, 2023 by Einsof.1457

[Hotride.2187]

I dont really care about instanced content in this game. Fractals I do because its fast and easy gold, but thats about it; once I'm full legendary I'll drop fractals too.

I much more prefer being able to login for a meta, knowing that if something comes up IRL I can just log off and try again later on.

Of course I dont mind raids being added, but this being the priority? No thanks.

[Einsof.1457]

26 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

I dont really care about instanced content in this game. Fractals I do because its fast and easy gold, but thats about it; once I'm full legendary I'll drop fractals too.

I much more prefer being able to login for a meta, knowing that if something comes up IRL I can just log off and try again later on.

Of course I dont mind raids being added, but this being the priority? No thanks.

great. do that. 

[Swagger.1459]

Devs- "the biggest challenge in creating more is the small audience they attract". Translation... We aren't going to waste developer time and resources on creating raids because the raid population doesn't justify it. We have better and more important things to spend our money on.  

 

Enjoy your strikes.

 

Time to move on to more productive topics.   

[Einsof.1457]

2 hours ago, Swagger.1459 said:

Devs- "the biggest challenge in creating more is the small audience they attract". Translation... We aren't going to waste developer time and resources on creating raids because the raid population doesn't justify it. We have better and more important things to spend our money on.  

 

Enjoy your strikes.

 

Time to move on to more productive topics.   

That's a completely one-dimensional way to think about it. Percent of player base doing content does not tell the whole story.  Hours played in raids is greater than hours played in story if you add it all up. How many times do people repeat story chapters just for the fun of it compared to how many players repeat raid content over the last 9 years? I really don't think people are just repeating living world season 3 episode 4 or insert whatever just for the lolz of it.  Story is play once and done content (some play twice for achievements, fine). It is not economically smart content from a business perspective though. 

  "The raid players are few because there are not enough raids, therefore we will not make more raids."   If arena net focused on a raid wing every 6 months, with a fractal/strike alternating in between, we'd have a more robust, hyped, and engaged player base than what we currently have. I don't think that is debatable. GW2 is flopping around like a beached salmon because there is no crazy cool stuff to get hyped about either from within the gw2 playerbase or the wider mmo/gamer ecosystem. I am already NOT HYPED about the next strike because I know it will just be a retooled encounter from a solo story instance.  That's not exciting at all.

Every single raid wing that has come out in GW2 was hyped up (except for 5, which was kinda soft launched for some reason) to a certain extent and general mmo sites and stuff picked up on it and help spread the hype. We need that sort of thing again. Strikes aren't going to do it. 

And finally, the servers will shut down before I stop talking about wing 8. 🙂

Edited March 8, 2023 by Einsof.1457

[Swagger.1459]

13 minutes ago, Einsof.1457 said:

That's a completely one-dimensional way to think about it. Percent of player base doing content does not tell the whole story.  Hours played in raids is greater than hours played in story on a per player basis, on average. I guarantee it. How many times do people repeat story chapters just for the fun of it compared to how many players repeat raid content over the last 9 years? I really don't think people are just repeating living world season 3 episode 4 or insert whatever just for the lolz of it.  Story is play once and done content (some play twice for achievements, fine). It is not economically smart content from a business perspective though. 

  "The raid players are few because there are not enough raids, therefore we will not make more raids."   If arena net focused on a raid wing every 6 months, with a fractal/strike alternating in between, we'd have a more robust, hyped, and engaged player base than what we currently have. I don't think that is debatable. GW2 is flopping around like a beached salmon because there is no crazy cool stuff to get hyped about either from within the gw2 playerbase or the wider mmo/gamer ecosystem. I am already NOT HYPED about the next strike because I know it will just be a retooled encounter from a solo story instance.  That's not exciting at all.

Every single raid wing that has come out in GW2 was hyped up (except for 5, which was kinda soft launched for some reason) to a certain extent and general mmo sites and stuff picked up on it and help spread the hype. We need that sort of thing again. Strikes aren't going to do it. 

And finally, the servers will shut down before I stop talking about wing 8. 🙂

Making things up and using clearly false assumptions doesn't change the fact the dev's clearly stated, in an official blog post on this site, that "the biggest challenge in creating more is the small audience they attract". Making more is clearly a waste of time because of the poor ROI. 

 

Enjoy your strikes. 

[Einsof.1457]

5 minutes ago, Swagger.1459 said:

Making things up and using clearly false assumptions doesn't change the fact the dev's clearly stated, in an official blog post on this site, that "the biggest challenge in creating more is the small audience they attract". Making more is clearly a waste of time because of the poor ROI. 

 

Enjoy your strikes. 

Small, yes. But that's arena nets fault that it's small. Regardless, that small audience is often 1. Spreading hype 2. Getting friends to join, 3. Diehard fans, that spend money and 4. Likely to play the content for years. Neglecting them to focus on the 1-2 hour per week player is bad business and bad design and arenanet should realize that by now..strikes are a huge flop. More do raids than strike cms for the reasons I listed earlier in this thread. 

Edited March 8, 2023 by Einsof.1457

[Swagger.1459]

10 minutes ago, Einsof.1457 said:

Neglecting them

is mostly likely because of the small audience they attracted.

 

the devs don't want to waste more time and money on making things only a small audience uses. that's like business 101. much more intelligent to use those resources for areas that provide a stronger ROI. 

 

again, you can spin the same talking points over and over, but the official statement has been made. it would be a wiser decision to talk about different topics, as opposed to creating multiple threads saying the same thing over and over. making another thread won't change the facts, it will just make people and the devs tune you out. And i'm sure you have other, more interesting, things to say, than complain ad nauseam about a topic the devs already officially addressed. 

[Einsof.1457]

11 minutes ago, Swagger.1459 said:

is mostly likely because of the small audience they attracted.

 

the devs don't want to waste more time and money on making things only a small audience uses. that's like business 101. much more intelligent to use those resources for areas that provide a stronger ROI. 

 

again, you can spin the same talking points over and over, but the official statement has been made. it would be a wiser decision to talk about different topics, as opposed to creating multiple threads saying the same thing over and over. making another thread won't change the facts, it will just make people and the devs tune you out. And i'm sure you have other, more interesting, things to say, than complain ad nauseam about a topic the devs already officially addressed. 

"We don't make raids because there's no audience because we don't make raids." Okay...meanwhile thousands of players still raid every week, including the first one. Wonder why that is 🤔

[Krzysztof.5973]

11 hours ago, Einsof.1457 said:

My point is that raiders/fractal players/wvw hardcores/legendary enthusiasts, are the ones that keep playing. They are the core Guild wars 2 player that plays almost every day and are the demographic most likely to buy gems on occasion and are near guaranteed to buy every expansion that comes out on day 1.

Yet, the type of player that logs in once in a blue moon to catch up on story and then complain on the forum about how they want the best stuff without any effort before going back to whatever else they do, seems to be who anet loves to cater to. It doesn't take a genius to see which demographic is worth prioritizing.

At the end of the day, would you rather pour resources into keeping your core chunk of players happy and spending money on gems, hyping the game to others, making content, etc. or the once-in-a-blue-moon casual story people who whine about not being able to get legendary armor in open world or spending a few bucks on an expansion? 

If I was head of arena net I would rather have 1 player who buys gems every month who raids, than 50 that log in every now and then, never buys gems, and complains on the forum about not getting enough freebies. That's not to say non raiders don't buy gems. I am just addressing probabilities. 

Hardcore audience is more enthusiastic, dedicated and stays invested but for every one of them, there is 20 casuals that will result in more revenue for ANet. Raiders are more likely to buy gems with gold while casuals lack gold to do so, pushing them to spend $$. 

While this game is in unique position to make new instanced content that stays relevant forever thanks to no gear treadmill, from business standpoint it's better to put minimum effort (strikes) to hook up enough hardcore audience so they don't quit the game. 

The "Wing 8" ship has sailed long ago. 

[The Boz.2038]

I bet Dhuum died more times than Zhaitan.

[Graymatter.4723]

8 hours ago, Einsof.1457 said:

"We don't make raids because there's no audience because we don't make raids." Okay...meanwhile thousands of players still raid every week, including the first one. Wonder why that is 🤔

But A/Net did make raids, 7 of them. How many raids do they need to make before we can accept that not enough people are playing them? I say that as someone who raids and enjoys them immensely.

[Linken.6345]

10 hours ago, Swagger.1459 said:

Making things up and using clearly false assumptions doesn't change the fact the dev's clearly stated, in an official blog post on this site, that "the biggest challenge in creating more is the small audience they attract". Making more is clearly a waste of time because of the poor ROI. 

 

Enjoy your strikes. 

That was before emblodended made it into the game so it might have changed tho.

[Einsof.1457]

2 hours ago, Graymatter.4723 said:

But A/Net did make raids, 7 of them. How many raids do they need to make before we can accept that not enough people are playing them? I say that as someone who raids and enjoys them immensely.

The thing is, anet clearly wants people to raid. Emboldened proves that. They themselves said that strikes are stepping stones into raids. Wing 8 will come someday 

[Graymatter.4723]

10 hours ago, Einsof.1457 said:

The thing is, anet clearly wants people to raid. Emboldened proves that. They themselves said that strikes are stepping stones into raids. Wing 8 will come someday 

I do hope that is the case but I am not convinced. Something that I would like to see is to have strike regular bosses be part of a raid. Strikes are useful because they are easy to teach - no ramp up time. Go in and train. The people could then do the CM's in the raid setting or something along those lines. Make strikes a real stepping stone.

[The Boz.2038]

I was always puzzled by the fact that ANet introduced into the setting a perfect practice chamber; the simulation room in S3 Taimi's Game. I truly expected that one to be used for more than just that one single story instance.

[Radiancee.6537]

Raids are actually important.

Yes, a small fraction of the player base (including myself and my static) is raiding. Still, we are thousands. 

Endcontent like raids is generating goals for everyone. Even if a casual player never wants to raid, there is still something to reach. Raids create stable veteran communites, gathering high experienced players that can and will share their knowledge to lesser experienced, more casual players. Raids are also creating very loyal and active guilds. Raids might not be for everyone, of course, but they are still important for the health of the whole game and community structure. Many raiders are also extremely active players who are willing to spend more money on the game. Sure, some of us spend our gold but we also tend to buy a lot of additional gems because we also invest more time into our hobby.

Raids are kinda like a win win situation for everyone and should be supported by everyone. It's not like everyone has to raid and yes, some content is more important at first. But every MMO kinda needs the "hardcore endgame stuff" some like to do. Those players are often the most loyal ones. Also, raids can generate hype outside the community. Even Harvest Temple CM attracted some hype from other communites. This is about the impact of this type of content.

Now we have more and more Strikes, setting up the connection between lesser and higher experienced players. Many new raiders started with EoD Normal Mode Strikes, actually liking them, wanting more, dipping into raids and now clearing some CMs. Happening in my own static and other ones I know. Some even started raiding just by trying out the emboldened mode.

And ArenaNet is clearly capable of creating actually good raid encounters.

Not everyone wants to fish. Not everyone wants to farm. Not everyone wants to do open world. Not everyone wants to do story. Not everyone wants to just chill and socialize. Not everyone wants to explore. Not everyone wants to raid. And so on, you get the point.

We are still one community. We are all enjoying this game in our way. This is an MMO, don't forget it.

So yes, raids are worth developing too. Strikes are worth it. Fractals are worth it. Collections are worth it. Good open world metas are worth it. Good story is worth it. All of it makes Guild Wars 2 feel complete.

Edited March 9, 2023 by Radiancee.6537