Jump to content
  • Sign Up

The All (spoilers)


Tyson.5160

Recommended Posts

5 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

 

  • His crystal minions have the unique ability to harmonize with each other to make themselves more powerful(wonder what this domain could be!)

His crystals make weird music sounds so maybe music and harmony

Link to comment
Share on other sites

45 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

You know that resonance is a natural aspect of crystals, right?

You are aware that its a natural aspect of literally EVERYTHING right? All things technically vibrate at a certain frequency, and can resonate with each other if their frequencies line up. That's part of the reason why furniture in one part of a house can start to vibrate when you have a motor on in another part of the house. Soldiers marching on a bridge can cause it to collapse if their marching matches the natural vibrating frequency of the bridge.

By your argument here you could've beaten Jormag by just making a giant sound gun that resonates at the same frequency of his ice. You can do that with literally anything. That, in itself, isn't a specific weakness.

45 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Uhmm... Branded didn't have increased power via harmonizing or fury, nor increased destructive power/rage/fierceness/violence.

They literally do though.

It not only happens in the Shatterer event in core, but also with the "recharging" and "empowering" crystals back in LWS4EP1, to name a few examples. Taimi even specifically calls out Primordus' feedback loop being strengthened by Kralk's death(because Kralk did the same kitten thing with his crystal minions). Glint even points out the "strength" of this resonance, and how it can also be made into a weakness, by throwing it back at Kralk with a refined weapon like the spear. Its the whole basis behind why the dragonsblood weapons work, and much of the power of the Branded.

Likewise

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lume_Arcweld

Quote

You see those bolts of lightning out there? Pure Branded energy. I've been studying how the storm's swells effect the Branded creatures, and the results are promising.

What did you learn?

As the Brandstorm swells, the Branded creatures behave erratically. Some grow in number or become violent, but all seem almost drawn to the storm.

Why do you think that is?

I believe they're drawn not just to the storm, but to the collection of pure Branded energy. If I could study it firsthand I could learn more about the nature of the Dragonbrand.

45 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Of course, if it is Kralk's magic, then that opens a whole new can of worms. Specifically: how did Jormag and/or Primordus get Kralkatorrik magic, but Soo-Won didn't? Either with Kralk's death, or with J+P's deaths? The entire purpose of Ankka hitting Soo-Won was to give her the crystal domain, the final domain she didn't have, so as to unleash Void, after all.

They mention this back in like LWS3. Because Jormag was much farther away from Zhaitan/Mordremoth when they died, it got significantly less of their power than Primordus did, leading to much fewer mixed power minions. Given Soo-Won's extreme distance from all the other Elder Dragons, it makes sense it wouldn't get any, or at least any appreciable, amount of magic from Kralk's death. Especially since Aurene was right there to collect most of it when she ascended. The remaining bits going to Primordus and Jormag due to proximity.

Edited by Sajuuk Khar.1509
  • Confused 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=hail+mary

That's not what a Hail Mary means.

 


Uhhhh any last ditch effort with little chance for success.  When playing PoF or S4, show me where the Fury is announced or described… it isn’t. It wasn’t until this magazine came out https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/releases/september-04-2019/

That we were even told what the domain was, after Kralk was dead.  The narrative team didn’t have the confidence or just plain forgot and it wasn’t until afterward that they went oh kitten we forgot to put that in, uhhhh I guess he was the Fury dragon too…

 

What I’m saying is they did a terrible job of explaining what Fury, Destruction or even Shadow spheres actually do because I don’t even think they really know, however they had to put something in there as they already established that each dragon had two spheres, which I think in the long run was a mistake.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

To the bold: probably the same way Kralkatorrik took time to figure out how to use Mind domain, and ended up using it to create a shared spatial awareness between minions rather than doing micromanagement or mass telepathy like Mordremoth did. The Elder Dragons aren't all-knowing, and are extremely stuck in their ways. It takes time for them to figure how to use their magic in new forms, or how to use new magic.

That said, it is suggested to be power gained, as Aurene calls it corrupted magic, and making use of the Frozen drives Jormag to further madness (hence the story step "Jormag's Madness" and Jormag becoming increasingly frantic and irrational after the Frozen are made). It's not entirely clear if it's gained from Zhaitan and Mordremoth, or Kralkatorrik - or a combination thereof. I'd assume Kralkatorrik because unmelting crystal. But then we have the issue mentioned above - why didn't Soo-Won get any Kralk juice until Ankka hit her with the extractor full of Aurene's magic, if Jormag and Primordus did?

I get that to a degree, but you would think that with how obsessed Jormag was with Primordus, that it would have thought of creating Frozen thousands of years ago, after Primordus attacked Jormag last time. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shards_of_Jormag

or perhaps introduce it in S3. They probably didn’t have the foresight if it was in fact a natural Jormag ability.
 

The Frozen feels extremely rushed, had very little screen time or real set up. I mean, it makes more sense if it was a new power from Kralkatorrik, problem is, they never explained that. My guess, another casualty in the breakneck speed that IBS had to be concluded to prepare for EoD.

 

In terms of Soo-Won, didn’t they show in the latter Future of Jade story mission that Jade had all the dragon magics in it, before we saw her in the reactor. I think even Soo-Won said something about it in the reactor too.

 

Soo-Won: This place...it manages the flow of magic between me and Tyria's ley lines.
<Character name>: Manages?
Soo-Won: Joon used a different word. "Modulate."
Soo-Won: She takes the magic I shed to make new dragonjade. It's been a most harmonious arrangement.
<Character name>: Wait. The other Elder Dragons. They... We killed them. Some of that magic went to Aurene, but the rest...
Soo-Won: Returned to the web of ley lines, and then to me. You did what you had to do, but I can't filter the magic alone.

 

Probably another error, I don’t know the whole thing is getting harder and harder to keep track of.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

By your argument here you could've beaten Jormag by just making a giant sound gun that resonates at the same frequency of his ice. You can do that with literally anything. That, in itself, isn't a specific weakness.

Except for the fact that it's explicitly stated to be Kralkatorrik's specific weakness, the resonance of his specific crystal signature.

Is it a poorly thought out unique weakness? Yeah, because it relies on a stereotype of layman knowledge of crystal overused in fictional media.

6 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

They literally do though.

It not only happens in the Shatterer event in core, but also with the "recharging" and "empowering" crystals back in LWS4EP1, to name a few examples. Taimi even specifically calls out Primordus' feedback loop being strengthened by Kralk's death(because Kralk did the same kitten thing with his crystal minions). Glint even points out the "strength" of this resonance, and how it can also be made into a weakness, by throwing it back at Kralk with a refined weapon like the spear. Its the whole basis behind why the dragonsblood weapons work, and much of the power of the Branded.

Likewise

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lume_Arcweld

To address your points specifically:

  1. Funny you originally say "its minions empower each other" and now you're basically saying "non-minion crystals specifically designed to heal and defend do so". This is something all dragon minions do btw - for example, Vine Crawlers provide buffs to other mordrem, or certain jormag totems providing buffs to nearby icebrood.
  2. I addressed Taimi's line, and how it isn't clear if it's specifically Kralk's domain, or just general power boost from more magic. Because Kralkatorrik does not get empowered by branded's destructiveness.
  3. Again, Glint points out the resonance of the crystals, just like every other NPC.
  4. Assuming that they even kept one lone NPC's dialogue in mind, you realize this very same behavior is seen other dragon minions at any increase of magic, such as seen in risen in various situations in Orr, including the amulets that Rissa made, right? This is not a unique attribute to branded, but a general attribute of "dragon minions exposed to moments of high magic quantities".

In short, your examples of branded "empowering each other" are all cases seen across all kinds of dragon minions - as well as non-minions - and aren't even cases of minions empowering minions, but corrupted constructs healing/defending minions; or are cases of the crystal resonance I explicitly quoted before.

6 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

They mention this back in like LWS3. Because Jormag was much farther away from Zhaitan/Mordremoth when they died, it got significantly less of their power than Primordus did, leading to much fewer mixed power minions. Given Soo-Won's extreme distance from all the other Elder Dragons, it makes sense it wouldn't get any, or at least any appreciable, amount of magic from Kralk's death. Especially since Aurene was right there to collect most of it when she ascended. The remaining bits going to Primordus and Jormag due to proximity.

This argument makes even less sense though. How did Soo-Won get power from Zhaitan, Mordremoth, Primordus, and Jormag but not Kralkatorrik when Kralkatorrik was the closest to Soo-Won when he died compared to the others.

And we know that Soo-Won got a significant amount of Zhaitan's death, as well as Jormag's and Primordus', because that's literally the lore behind dragonjade. Even if you excuse Kralkatorrik with "because Aurene was right there" to collect most of it, it is still contradictory because Primorus, Kralkatorrik, and Jormag "were right there" as well - far closer than Soo-Won was, that's for kitten sure. So how the hell did Soo-Won get Zhaitan magic back when Zhaitan died (which also created dragonjade), but not Kralkatorrik magic.

And this isn't even to mention that Tom Abernathy basically retconned that statement to say that Jormag wasn't seen using Death and Plant magic so wildly because they were more experimental and cautious with new magic compared to Primordus and Kralkatorrik.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
  • Confused 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Tyson.5160 said:

I get that to a degree, but you would think that with how obsessed Jormag was with Primordus, that it would have thought of creating Frozen thousands of years ago, after Primordus attacked Jormag last time. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shards_of_Jormag

or perhaps introduce it in S3. They probably didn’t have the foresight if it was in fact a natural Jormag ability.

Jormag didn't have Kralkatorrik's, Zhaitan's, Mordremoth's, or the Lost Spirits' magic.
And they didn't have a mortal's perception of magic to get new perspectives - that was the main key.

5 hours ago, Tyson.5160 said:

The Frozen feels extremely rushed, had very little screen time or real set up. I mean, it makes more sense if it was a new power from Kralkatorrik, problem is, they never explained that. My guess, another casualty in the breakneck speed that IBS had to be concluded to prepare for EoD.

Yes. That was all of Champions. It was a terrible ending to an otherwise great season, all for the rushed expansion of End of Dragons that provided more questions and question-inducing-retcons than it provided answers despite being the big finale.

5 hours ago, Tyson.5160 said:

In terms of Soo-Won, didn’t they show in the latter Future of Jade story mission that Jade had all the dragon magics in it, before we saw her in the reactor. I think even Soo-Won said something about it in the reactor too.

Soo-Won: This place...it manages the flow of magic between me and Tyria's ley lines.
<Character name>: Manages?
Soo-Won: Joon used a different word. "Modulate."
Soo-Won: She takes the magic I shed to make new dragonjade. It's been a most harmonious arrangement.
<Character name>: Wait. The other Elder Dragons. They... We killed them. Some of that magic went to Aurene, but the rest...
Soo-Won: Returned to the web of ley lines, and then to me. You did what you had to do, but I can't filter the magic alone.

Probably another error, I don’t know the whole thing is getting harder and harder to keep track of.

Dragonjade was created by putting dragon magic into the jade, yes. The Jade Sea gained a kitten ton of dragon magic from Zhaitan's death (somehow, despite the distance being an issue as brought up in Season 3), and Soo-Won got a bunch of magic from each Elder Dragon's death as well:

Soo-Won: She takes the magic I shed to make new dragonjade. It's been a most harmonious arrangement.
<Character name>: Wait. The other Elder Dragons. They... We killed them. Some of that magic went to Aurene, but the rest...
Soo-Won: Returned to the web of ley lines, and then to me. You did what you had to do, but I can't filter the magic alone.
Soo-Won: Even when my children were alive, we couldn't filter it together. As each of them fell, the magic grew more corrupted.
Soo-Won: Now, it's become something else. Something...disagreeable to mortal life.

And as the dialogue indicates, Dragonjade was also made by siphoning dragon magic from Soo-Won to empower the jade further, and recharging the batteries with Soo-Won's magic.

 

What this doesn't explain is:

  1. How did Soo-Won get Zhaitan's (and Mordremoth's) magic when distance is apparently a factor.
  2. In fact, why did the magic flow directly to her, when Zhaitan's and Mordremoth's magic pooled up in the ley-lines instead?
  3. If she got Zhaitan's (and Mordremoth's) magic from so far away, why didn't she get any of Kralkatorrik's (or Balthazar's) magic if Primordus and Jormag did as hinted?
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
  • Confused 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Except for the fact that it's explicitly stated to be Kralkatorrik's specific weakness, the resonance of his specific crystal signature.

Is it a poorly thought out unique weakness? Yeah, because it relies on a stereotype of layman knowledge of crystal overused in fictional media.

Yes, because it isn't just the normal resonance of crystals. Its a specific thing due to how his power works. Its not poorly thought out, makes perfect sense.

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

To address your points specifically:

To address your "counter" points

  1. I was pointing out the resonance between Crystals Kralk and his minions share, this isn't, and doesn't, change the other point made. Its just further evidence of the crystal resonance.
  2. Taimi's line is pretty clear in what she was saying. How else would Primordus' resonance with his minions get more powerful unless he got a specific magic to boost it? His fire magic doesn't just get better because he absorbed the plant spectrum or w/e.
  3. Yes, the resonance of Kralk's crystals specifically. Like every other NPC talking about.
  4. But, again, they weren't talking about just ANY magic, they were talking specifically about the Branded being empowered by the brand lighting, aka, the "Fury" of the Brandstorm as its called in later maps.

In short, all the examples given specifically relate to a unique power gaining process to the Branded that the other Elder Dragon's don't share except Primordus, whose similar power appears to be slightly different in how it operates.

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

This argument makes even less sense though. How did Soo-Won get power from Zhaitan, Mordremoth, Primordus, and Jormag but not Kralkatorrik when Kralkatorrik was the closest to Soo-Won when he died compared to the others.

And we know that Soo-Won got a significant amount of Zhaitan's death, as well as Jormag's and Primordus', because that's literally the lore behind dragonjade. Even if you excuse Kralkatorrik with "because Aurene was right there" to collect most of it, it is still contradictory because Primorus, Kralkatorrik, and Jormag "were right there" as well - far closer than Soo-Won was, that's for kitten sure. So how the hell did Soo-Won get Zhaitan magic back when Zhaitan died (which also created dragonjade), but not Kralkatorrik magic.

Again, because Aurene wasn't there to absorb the lion's share of the magic when Zhaitan and Mordrmeoth died, like she was for Kralk. It just went back into the ley-lines, eventually making its way to the other Elder Dragons including Soo-Won.

For Jormag and Primordus there were no other Elder Dragons besides Aurene and Soo-Won to take the magic after they died, and Jormag and Primordus were way too juiced from the months long campaign of destruction across the previous Champion's chapters for Aurene to absorb it all. Leaving it to go back into the ley-lines, and travel down to Soo-Won

Edited by Sajuuk Khar.1509
  • Confused 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

41 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

What this doesn't explain is:

  1. How did Soo-Won get Zhaitan's (and Mordremoth's) magic when distance is apparently a factor.
  2. In fact, why did the magic flow directly to her, when Zhaitan's and Mordremoth's magic pooled up in the ley-lines instead?
  3. If she got Zhaitan's (and Mordremoth's) magic from so far away, why didn't she get any of Kralkatorrik's (or Balthazar's) magic if Primordus and Jormag did as hinted?
  1. Aurene wasn't there to absorb most of Zhaitan, and Mordremoth's, magic.
  2. The magic didn't flow directly to her. As the dialogue you posted states, it went back to the ley-lines, like it did in previous Elder Dragon deaths, and made its way to her over the long gap between the end of IBS, and the beginning of EoD.
  3. Because Aurene was there when Kralk died, and directly absorbed his magic to make herself and Elder Dragon, taking the overwhelming majority of Kralk, and Balthazar's magic that Kralk had taken, into herself. Leaving what little remained to go to Primordus and Jormag who were far closer, and not enough to make it down to Soo-Won.

All pretty easy stuff.

Edited by Sajuuk Khar.1509
  • Confused 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
  1. Aurene wasn't there to absorb most of Zhaitan, and Mordremoth's, magic.
  2. The magic didn't flow directly to her. As the dialogue you posted states, it went back to the ley-lines, like it did in previous Elder Dragon deaths, and made its way to her over the long gap between the end of IBS, and the beginning of EoD.
  3. Because Aurene was there when Kralk died, and directly absorbed his magic to make herself and Elder Dragon, taking the overwhelming majority of Kralk, and Balthazar's magic that Kralk had taken, into herself. Leaving what little remained to go to Primordus and Jormag who were far closer, and not enough to make it down to Soo-Won.

All pretty easy stuff.

  1. Mordremoth, Primordus, and Kralkatorrik were there to absorb Zhaitan's (and Mordremoth's) magic, yet she still got a significant share of it.
  2. It actually did, as the dialogue I posted stated, it flowed through the ley-lines to her. The ley-lines weren't the destination, it was the means of travel. As Taimi explains in the Seasons of Dragons achievement, the magic flew directly south. If it was simply into the ley-lines, then it would have been like the HoT finale where it spread out in all directions (even westward where there were no Elder Dragons) - instead, it spread solely southward.
  3. Which contradicts point 1, because Mordremoth/Tequatl/Kralkatorrik was there to absorb most of Zhaitan's magic, and Primordus/Kralkatorrik was there to absorb most of Mordremoth's magic. So how did she get Zhaitan's magic, but not Kralkatorrik's, when most of their magic got absorbed in both situations, and Kralkatorrik was closer than Zhaitan?
Edited by Konig Des Todes.2086
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
  • Confused 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
  1. Mordremoth, Primordus, and Kralkatorrik were there to absorb Zhaitan's (and Mordremoth's) magic, yet she still got a significant share of it.
  2. It actually did, as the dialogue I posted stated, it flowed through the ley-lines to her. The ley-lines weren't the destination, it was the means of travel. As Taimi explains in the Seasons of Dragons achievement, the magic flew directly south. If it was simply into the ley-lines, then it would have been like the HoT finale where it spread out in all directions (even westward where there were no Elder Dragons) - instead, it spread solely southward.
  3. Which contradicts point 1, because Mordremoth/Tequatl/Kralkatorrik was there to absorb most of Zhaitan's magic, and Primordus/Kralkatorrik was there to absorb most of Mordremoth's magic. So how did she get Zhaitan's magic, but not Kralkatorrik's, when most of their magic got absorbed in both situations, and Kralkatorrik was closer than Zhaitan?

1/3. Nope. You're conflating two entirely different situations as being the same thing. As stated back in like, LWS3, when an Elder Dragon dies its magic goes into the ley-lines, and then is naturally drawn to the other Elder Dragons who absorb it. In neither Zhaitan or Mordremoth's case was there an Elder Dragon right there to absorb most of it before this had a chance to occur. In Kralk's case Aurene was RIGHT THERE to just directly absorb most of it before this process could happen.

Think of Elder Dragons like sponges full of water(magic). When one dies the water(magic) is normally released just directly onto the countertop(world/ley lines). There it begins flowing in all directions until it runs into another sponge(Elder Dragon) that soaks up the water(magic). In Kralk's case the majority of the magic never reached the countertop(world/ley lines) because there was another sponge(Aurene) right there to just suck up most of the water before it ever reached it. What little water she didn't suck up went back onto the countertop(ley lines) but Jormag and Primordus were the closest sponges, and were able to suck up what water(magic) remained before any could travel south to Soo-Won.

 

2. And, as mentioned back in the game, when an Elder Dragon dies its magic goes into the ley-lines, where its then naturally drawn to the other Elder Dragons. With all the other Elder Dragons dead, the moment the magic hits the ley lines it would start going south to Soo-Won. Since she was the only other Elder Dragon alive besides Aurene at the time.

Edited by Sajuuk Khar.1509
  • Confused 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

1/3. Nope. You're conflating two entirely different situations as being the same thing. As stated back in like, LWS3, when an Elder Dragon dies its magic goes into the ley-lines, and then is naturally drawn to the other Elder Dragons who absorb it. In neither Zhaitan or Mordremoth's case was there an Elder Dragon right there to absorb most of it before this had a chance to occur. In Kralk's case Aurene was RIGHT THERE to just directly absorb most of it before this process could happen.

Think of Elder Dragons like sponges full of water(magic). When one dies the water(magic) is normally released just directly onto the countertop(world/ley lines). There it begins flowing in all directions until it runs into another sponge(Elder Dragon) that soaks up the water(magic). In Kralk's case the majority of the magic never reached the countertop(world/ley lines) because there was another sponge(Aurene) right there to just suck up most of the water before it ever reached it. What little water she didn't suck up went back onto the countertop(ley lines) but Jormag and Primordus were the closest sponges, and were able to suck up what water(magic) remained before any could travel south to Soo-Won.

 

2. And, as mentioned back in the game, when an Elder Dragon dies its magic goes into the ley-lines, where its then naturally drawn to the other Elder Dragons. With all the other Elder Dragons dead, the moment the magic hits the ley lines it would start going south to Soo-Won. Since she was the only other Elder Dragon alive besides Aurene at the time.


It wasn't really flowing in the ley lines to Soo Won though, it was drifting in the sky towards Cantha. Did we get any explanation as to why? I just assumed it had something to do with Joon and her machine + Soo Won pulling it somehow. 

If it was specifically travelling via Ley Lines I would have thought it would go underground. I mean I guess it could have been and they just opted to show it in the sky to create spectacle and speculation + budget cuts and not having the artist that made the cut scenes like we had post Mordremoth's death. But the story and Soo Won's involvement was so dismally short and hand waved in the expansion it's kind of difficult to surmise much outside of jade tech jade tech jade tech. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

59 minutes ago, Bast.7253 said:

It wasn't really flowing in the ley lines to Soo Won though, it was drifting in the sky towards Cantha. Did we get any explanation as to why? I just assumed it had something to do with Joon and her machine + Soo Won pulling it somehow. 

If it was specifically travelling via Ley Lines I would have thought it would go underground. I mean I guess it could have been and they just opted to show it in the sky to create spectacle and speculation + budget cuts and not having the artist that made the cut scenes like we had post Mordremoth's death. But the story and Soo Won's involvement was so dismally short and hand waved in the expansion it's kind of difficult to surmise much outside of jade tech jade tech jade tech. 

Well, according to EoD dialogue, it did go through the ley lines to reach Soo-Won.

After Aurene ascended at the end of LWS4, and magic levels around the world went back down to normal, we still see floating volatile magic spheres in areas where Aurene has used her magic. Like in the purified Brand in Grothmar. Likely due to the amount of magic she posses/puts out when using magic. We only really see the magic in the sky immediately around where Jormag/Primrodus died, likely a similar result of the sheer amount of magic their death's released. The vast majority of it likely did go underground, either immediately after their deaths, or shortly thereafter. What we saw just being an immediate, short term, side effect of so much magic being released in one area.

I would guess it was mostly just "visual cue" for players to give a hint at what was coming next.

Edited by Sajuuk Khar.1509
  • Confused 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Did we learn anything definitively new about The All in EoDs? I’m struggling to remember.

Is there a clear answer to how Aurene balances The All alone? Just that she filters and returns the magic?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Zola.6197 said:

Is there a clear answer to how Aurene balances The All alone? Just that she filters and returns the magic?

Yes.

The other Elder Dragons consumed, and hoarded, magic in giant cycles of feast, and famine. Aurene doesn't eat up magic, she filters and cycles it.

  • Confused 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Zola.6197 said:

Did we learn anything definitively new about The All in EoDs? I’m struggling to remember.

Not really. The most is basically the Void's existence, but The All itself isn't brought up. Even if you argue it is via "balance of magic", the way it is presented feels somewhat independent of previous lore on The All. At least it does to me.

3 hours ago, Zola.6197 said:

Is there a clear answer to how Aurene balances The All alone? Just that she filters and returns the magic?

Nope. Just that she does a better job at filtering magic than the previous Elder Dragons, even better than Soo-Won who didn't hoard magic either and had to balance it solo for some time initially before she created the other five Elder Dragons - somehow. The why and how of Aurene being able to handle conflicting magic remains a mystery, just that she can.

 

EoD is very light on the worldbuilding, especially the "why"s and "how"s of it, and the only real addition there is, is simply the Void's existence.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 2
  • Confused 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Not really. The most is basically the Void's existence, but The All itself isn't brought up. Even if you argue it is via "balance of magic", the way it is presented feels somewhat independent of previous lore on The All. At least it does to me.

 

I was hoping that EoD, would have explained the balance of magic better. We went from you can’t kill Kralkatorrik or the world ends to replacing Kralkatorrik, to killing both Jormag and Primordus and hoping everything is ok. Now granted I understand that the magic that should have ended the world was contained in Jade, I just wish they explained it better, because even now, when I talk about it, I’m still slightly confused on the situation.

  • Like 2
  • Confused 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Tyson.5160 said:

I was hoping that EoD, would have explained the balance of magic better. We went from you can’t kill Kralkatorrik or the world ends to replacing Kralkatorrik, to killing both Jormag and Primordus and hoping everything is ok. Now granted I understand that the magic that should have ended the world was contained in Jade, I just wish they explained it better, because even now, when I talk about it, I’m still slightly confused on the situation.

We couldn't allow Balthazar to kill Kralkatorrik because we had nothing to replace any of the dead Elder Dragons at the time, and any further dragon deaths after Mordremoth would've upset the balance too much, and caused Tyria to be doomed.

When Kralkatorrik died, Aurene immediately absorbed his power, ascending to an Elder Dragon. But, unlike the other Elder Dragons, she filters and cycles magic, instead of hoarding it. This allowed Jormag and Primordus to die with no real issue as well, since Aurene was controlling the magic balance.

This was explained back in Path of Fire.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Way_Forward

Quote

Sadizi: The millennia-long Elder Dragon cycle is one of feast and famine. Ravenous, they rise. Sated, they sleep.

Sadizi: Glint and the Forgotten set out to break this cycle of extremes and to restore true balance.

Sadizi: But when two Elder Dragons were unexpectedly eliminated from the cycle at one time, we believe it created a void.

Sadizi: A void that caused the system to break down and the collapse to begin.

Sadizi: The hope was that Glint's legacy would stabilize the cycle.

Sadizi: We theorize these vacancies must be filled with entities that circulate and share magic rather than hoard it.

Sadizi: Only then will the balance of magic truly become stable. Only then will Glint's legacy achieve its ultimate purpose.

 

And the "magic that would've ended the world" wasn't contained in jade. Some magic went into the jade after Zhaitan's death, but the vast majority of magic never went into the jade. It went into Soo-Won. I'm not actually sure why you think the jade saved anything. Joon was pumping magic from Soo-Won into the jade, which kept Soo-Won more stable for a little bit, but that didn't massively help save the planet of anything.

Edited by Sajuuk Khar.1509
  • Haha 1
  • Confused 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)
On 3/21/2023 at 9:45 AM, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

And the "magic that would've ended the world" wasn't contained in jade. Some magic went into the jade after Zhaitan's death, but the vast majority of magic never went into the jade. It went into Soo-Won. I'm not actually sure why you think the jade saved anything. Joon was pumping magic from Soo-Won into the jade, which kept Soo-Won more stable for a little bit, but that didn't massively help save the planet of anything.

Well somehow we went from the forgotten advising that we require entities to fill in the vacancies to just needing Aurene, which was just kinda hand waved into the story.

 

Even Aurene and the Commander talk about how Tyria is still around even though the majority of the dragons are gone. Is this purely because of Soo-Won and Aurene. Then we have the talk about if Soo-Won dies the magic will kill Aurene and destroy the planet. I guess, since the extractors sucked the magic into bits, that can be filtered later? I’m just wondering if this vacancies thing is going to play a part in future story.

 

I feel like these topics were not discussed  in a satisfactory way for me and were a bit too ambiguous.

 

 

Edited by Tyson.5160
  • Like 1
  • Confused 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Tyson.5160 said:

Well somehow we went from the forgotten advising that we require entities to fill in the vacancies to just needing Aurene, which was just kinda hand waved into the story.

The Forgotten said we needed something to replace the fallen Elder Dragons, we got that with Aurene. Nowhere did the Forgotten say we needed 6 entities to replace the 6 elder Dragons. Only that we needed something to do the job they did.

7 hours ago, Tyson.5160 said:

Even Aurene and the Commander talk about how Tyria is still around even though the majority of the dragons are gone. Is this purely because of Soo-Won and Aurene. Then we have the talk about if Soo-Won dies the magic will kill Aurene and destroy the planet. I guess, since the extractors sucked the magic into bits, that can be filtered later? I’m just wondering if this vacancies thing is going to play a part in future story.

When Aurene ascended to an Elder Dragon, all instances of the unbound and volatile magic went away, as did the ley enhanced super monsters. Her ascension was able to negate the negative side effects of Zhaitan, Mordremoth, and Kralkatorri's deaths. The fact these things didn't reappear, even after Jormag and Primordus died, shows her ability to balance the all was great enough to even account for those two leaving the picture as well.

And the issue was that is Soo-Won died with all the void in her, it would unleash upon her death and destroy the world. As stated in the "Extraction Point" story chapter of EoD, the plan was to use the extractors to rip the Void out of Soo-Won, at which point it would go into Aurene and be purified. Aurene isn't really affected by the Void because "prismatic dragon" and all. They even mention during the final fight how the Commander(at this point power infused by Aurene) is absorbing the Void as they fight the Elder Dragon Void manifestations. After ripping enough of the Void out they hoped to be able to save Soo-Won, but she ended up having to die since she was too far gone.

Edited by Sajuuk Khar.1509
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

The Forgotten said we needed something to replace the fallen Elder Dragons, we got that with Aurene. Nowhere did the Forgotten say we needed 6 entities to replace the 6 elder Dragons. Only that we needed something to do the job they did.

When Aurene ascended to an Elder Dragon, all instances of the unbound and volatile magic went away, as did the ley enhanced super monsters. Her ascension was able to negate the negative side effects of Zhaitan, Mordremoth, and Kralkatorri's deaths. The fact these things didn't reappear, even after Jormag and Primordus died, shows her ability to balance the all was great enough to even account for those two leaving the picture as well.

And the issue was that is Soo-Won died with all the void in her, it would unleash upon her death and destroy the world. As stated in the "Extraction Point" story chapter of EoD, the plan was to use the extractors to rip the Void out of Soo-Won, at which point it would go into Aurene and be purified. Aurene isn't really affected by the Void because "prismatic dragon" and all. They even mention during the final fight how the Commander(at this point power infused by Aurene) is absorbing the Void as they fight the Elder Dragon Void manifestations. After ripping enough of the Void out they hoped to be able to save Soo-Won, but she ended up having to die since she was too far gone.

It’s just too bad, that each dragon didn’t get the proper time and dedication, like Zhaitan did and even then they decided to toss in things, like the Shadow sphere of influence.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Tyson.5160 said:

It’s just too bad, that each dragon didn’t get the proper time and dedication, like Zhaitan did and even then they decided to toss in things, like the Shadow sphere of influence.

Comparing to Zhaitan isn't saying much because most of core wasn't even about Zhaitan. It was about various threats at various levels, and involved most of the Elder Dragons up until the attack on Claw Island. Even after Claw Island, most of the story was about collecting allies, and doing a "ground pound" war in Orr against Zhaitan where we learn very little about the dragon itself other than it eats relics via its Mouths, and was tapping into the Artesian waters. There was very little real development on Zhiatan back in core. Zhaitan probably the least actual development on the dragon itself, just a large exposure of its minions.

Looking to the other Elder Dragons, their stories shouldn't have been as long in the first place. Since we already did the process of unifying everyone to fight the dragons back in core, we don't need to do it again. Likewise, each next Elder Dragon should have a shorter story than the last, as accumulated knowledge across the game means we have less to learn/figure out about each one, and the larger cycle.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Comparing to Zhaitan isn't saying much because most of core wasn't even about Zhaitan. It was about various threats at various levels, and involved most of the Elder Dragons up until the attack on Claw Island. Even after Claw Island, most of the story was about collecting allies, and doing a "ground pound" war in Orr against Zhaitan where we learn very little about the dragon itself other than it eats relics via its Mouths, and was tapping into the Artesian waters. There was very little real development on Zhiatan back in core. Zhaitan probably the least actual development on the dragon itself, just a large exposure of its minions.

Looking to the other Elder Dragons, their stories shouldn't have been as long in the first place. Since we already did the process of unifying everyone to fight the dragons back in core, we don't need to do it again. Likewise, each next Elder Dragon should have a shorter story than the last, as accumulated knowledge across the game means we have less to learn/figure out about each one, and the larger cycle.

 

I mean even with how they combatted the dragons was kinda repetitive, as well. Gather allies, gather intel, kill dragon. Primordus kinda had that, but it was a bit disjointed since some of it happened in S3 and some of it happened in IBS. I need to do a complete replay from start to finish again. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/21/2023 at 12:45 PM, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

When Kralkatorrik died, Aurene immediately absorbed his power, ascending to an Elder Dragon. But, unlike the other Elder Dragons, she filters and cycles magic, instead of hoarding it. This allowed Jormag and Primordus to die with no real issue as well, since Aurene was controlling the magic balance.

However, EoD never explained two critical things about Aurene:

  1. Why was Soo-Won, who also shared and filtered magic instead of hoarding it, completely unaffective while Aurene was?
  2. Why is sharing magic useful?

To elaborate: Soo-Won is notably not a hoarder of magic, and has even actively drained herself of magic into jade for the past ~20 years. Yet she was able to do nothing in regards to the magical balance of the world, despite even handling it by herself originally. Meanwhile, Aurene somehow can do it all perfectly by herself, even better than Soo-Won, the mother of Elder Dragons and creator of the entire freaking world, ever could. She's not just cycling magic like Soo-Won was, but she's somehow - with zero explanation - a better filter. It's just told that she is a better filter, not why she's a better filter.

And then there's the whole sharing issue - if it was six Elder Dragons sharing magic, it makes sense. But one? In Season 3, one of the leading causes of concern was the sheer quantity of magic in the open world, and since Aurene doesn't hoard magic like Kralkatorrik, she would have filtered most of his magic back into the world. Killing Kralkatorrik would have made that matter all the worse when she replaced him, because that quantity of magic would increase. And that's got nothing to say about killing Jormag and Primordus afterward, who also hoarded a bunch of magic (albeit at that point not as much as Kralk did but still about as much as Mordremoth, each). One of the things about the Elder Dragons hoarding magic is that they took it out of the world, and shoving it all back into the world was causing the ley-lines to overflow.

To use an analogy: simply changing a water filter doesn't solve the issue of the dam overflowing, it just cleans up the water in said dam.

But like with how Aurene can magically filter out all magic perfectly, how Aurene sharing magic doesn't cause an even higher quantity of magic, and how that quantity of magic somehow reduced despite the whole sharing rather than hoarding.

  • Confused 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/22/2023 at 1:02 PM, Tyson.5160 said:

Even Aurene and the Commander talk about how Tyria is still around even though the majority of the dragons are gone. Is this purely because of Soo-Won and Aurene. Then we have the talk about if Soo-Won dies the magic will kill Aurene and destroy the planet. I guess, since the extractors sucked the magic into bits, that can be filtered later? I’m just wondering if this vacancies thing is going to play a part in future story.

Unfortunately, as I feared when Jormag said in Champions:

Jormag through Bangar: The "balance" is a fantasy—another mortal superstition. Primordus will lay waste to this world. And you are not ready.

It seems ANet just threw out all purposes of The All and magical balance in the plot out the window. The new writers didn't like that and went with something simpler. It was all a lie.

Tyria wasn't "still around [...] purely because of Soo-Won and Aurene" - it was just still around because all six domains weren't in one body. They never needed more than two Elder Dragons unless one of them was Aurene and able to perfectly filter the Void out of the magic completely (saying nothing about where the filtration goes to given that's how filtration systems work - it doesn't eradicate the gunk, just separates and gathers it). Aurene was never in danger, just the planet and only because Ankka forced Kralk's domain into Soo-Won (because, somehow, she didn't get any of it when Jormag and Primordus seemingly did and she somehow got Zhaitan's and Mordremoth's, despite other dragons nomming it up before it should have reached her).

 

Anyways, I don't expect it'll play a role in the future, because ANet writers are clearly tired of the dragon plot that was from 3 iterations of writers ago, and they just straight up dismissed everything that was set-up from one iteration of writers ago.

  • Confused 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/22/2023 at 8:05 PM, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

The Forgotten said we needed something to replace the fallen Elder Dragons, we got that with Aurene. Nowhere did the Forgotten say we needed 6 entities to replace the 6 elder Dragons. Only that we needed something to do the job they did.

They didn't explicitly stated "six", but they did say plural entities. As you yourself quoted Sadizi saying in HoT:

Sadizi: We theorize these vacancies must be filled with entities that circulate and share magic rather than hoard it.

Taimi: The Exalted believed Glint's scions—plural—would shoulder the burden, but we only have Aurene now. But we're still here. Either she can handle it, or something else is out there. Or time is limited.

On 3/22/2023 at 8:05 PM, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Her ascension was able to negate the negative side effects of Zhaitan, Mordremoth, and Kralkatorri's deaths. The fact these things didn't reappear, even after Jormag and Primordus died, shows her ability to balance the all was great enough to even account for those two leaving the picture as well.

On 3/22/2023 at 8:05 PM, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Aurene isn't really affected by the Void because "prismatic dragon" and all. They even mention during the final fight how the Commander(at this point power infused by Aurene) is absorbing the Void as they fight the Elder Dragon Void manifestations.

I love how you even sugercoat the fact that it's never explained why this is the case. It's just "because".

  • Haha 1
  • Confused 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...