All our professions can adapt to almost any situation

[enkidu.5937]

Just quoting Anet with the thread title:

„In GW2 we want you to be able to play what you want to play, when you want to play and where you want to play. And the way we did that is all our professions can adapt to almost any situation.“

 

Anet has done a great job on that! Each profession has multiple specializations, weapons, skills, traits, and we can swap on need with build templates. So they really managed their initial goal to break up with the old-fashioned role assignment, like tank + healer + DPS.

 

Basically, Anet has shifted Meta gaming from mainly theory crafting with the purpose of min/maxing what your predefined role needs . . .

. . . to an in-game Meta gaming where we can min/max what our group / subgroup / zerg needs at this very live moment. That's just great fun, at least for me! 😀

 

Nonetheless, in WvW there seems to be a remarkable number of resilient old school Meta crafters, that just take the outdated concept of predefined role assignments as „naturally given“. And that makes discussions on that topic difficult, because the fundamental core design is not questioned and discussions usually start with: „Every subgroup needs 5 predefined roles, so we cannot accomplish that with Soulbeast, Vault Thief . . .“ (just inserted the most hated and underrated classes here)

 

In general, predefined roles are unnecessary e. g. in zergs. There is no need for a subgroup to have one role as range dps, one role as stability strip / boon corrupt etc. Its only important that the zerg in total has those tools. And in the 5-target support system, its only important that your subgroup has the tools, like hard CC counter, heal etc. Its not needed that one role provides 80% of stab and heal for the whole group. If you notice that your subgroup is in need for something and overflows in another, adapt with a flexible build! 🤗

 

So min/maxing your build for a predefined role might make some sense to a degree, like combining heal skills with healing power on gear, or maxing DPS with scholar runes etc. But that only creates problems like:

- full support roles give less bags, so people refuse, and zergs usually end with a lack of FBs and support in general

- maxing DPS ends with glass cannons that dont survive the first push

- builds are not just synergizing, but become heavily dependent on the performance or even availability of other roles

- great skills that would contribute to the team are dismissed, cause „you have to take that 5% extra damage, cause you are DPS role“

- live adaptation gets narrowed down, cause your build has to stay min/maxed for that predefined role

- several whole classes are dismissed, tons of specs are dismissed, diversity as content gets narrowed down, have to play the same boring Meta with predefined roles for years

 

Well, predefined roles ofc can be regarded as a kind of teamplay, agreed. But its outdated. Adapt pls 😚

 

Have a nice one!

 

-----------

 

Just to provide some references. I dont PvE, but I guess the latter guy has some points:

 

subversiontwo.7501

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/128056-hello-commanders-quit-putting-people-in-line-1-and-make-subgroups-holy-jesus/?do=findComment&comment=1860010

 

Sigfodr.9576

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/41510-q-about-tankhealing-role-in-gw2-did-elite-specs-put-more-focus-into-these/#comment-669699

[MysteryDude.1572]

There is a misconception in that quote. It's not that you can play your class with your build in every game mode but rather , every class can has a build for a specific situation that can be played around the mechanical nature of every content. 

Some builds work better or worse but that's it because the mechanical nature and mechanical limitations of classes.

Player input comes secondary and it uplifts or stagnates said limitations. 

To give you an example on the ranger/thief topic, heres another build I have seen server mates playing with : gunflame. 

In a recent 30 v 30 scenario , gunflame worked more than fine from what I have seen. 

Is it considered a meme build ? Yes 

Was it effective ? Yes 

Why ? Cause players knew how it worked mechanically so they could pull it off. 

I can't play it that effectively . However here's a build I played effectively in a 40 Vs 40 bvb recently : core staff support ele , before the staff buffs.

Was it a meme build ? Yes 

Was it effective ? Yes 

Why ? Cause I knew how to work around my party with it. 

Same goes for thief/ranger builds. For every 30 not mechanical inclined individuals out there , there's some that are killing it in whatever content you put them on.

But there's also another argument here. It's not about builds essentialy , it's about the mechanical nature of each situation and the knowledge in how classes work in said situation . In the core heal ele example : my party members knew how to push/kite/dodge/hold positions close to the commander  so that made it more efficient for the build since it had limited aoe healing, so the build didn't struggle that much. If it would be any other inexperienced player that would run off to Narnia/facetank damage, tempest would suit the situation better.

People can theory/build craft all they want but once builds and comps struggle facing  mechanical limitations it comes down to :  tryharding with a class that don't work Vs loggin in a class/build that does work better for a situation. As to why people often won't do it it's different matter. 

- supports can abuse their skills for bags more , FBS abusing tome1 , elixir gun 3 in enemies , hammer 5 for engis ( or flamethrower lol)  , staff fire 2 , 5 static, earthwall for eles , supports can get bags ther are options. They don't get abused that much when they can imo.

- if dps players can't survive enemy push they should learn to kite/dodge more , you can't face tank a well bomb . If they don't have support in their party ? Unlucky , grab stoneheart , armour of earth if ele for example, etch . 

- what skills might that be ? If it's dragonhinter for example it can drop sword of justice for reflection wall , sure it loses dps but nulls enemy heralds hammer 1 spam. That doesn't mean all the DH in the sqaud should drop something for reflection wall tho .cause then overall dps is lower. Ofc I think other classes can drop dps for something else but gotta question : what do you get out of it,  in what degree and for what

- builds synergizing in a group means synergysing with each other . Synergysing just for yourself it's still a selfish build. Yes you could run cele dps , but if your supports are doing their job , all the defensive stats in cele goes to waste and nhalfs dps compare to a full dps build.

- I dunno if classes or builds feels diminished , maybe specific classes Vs specific content example mechanist , pet dies and there's so much reflect in big scale it renders that spec useless . In roaming tho ? Mech is fine in that content.

And even tho I don't find the predetermined meta roles a bad idea , yes people could adapt builds , it's just comes down with experience.

When I play DH for example I talk to party I let em know they have an extra stab source cause i take stand your ground. We lack cleanse and I play necro ? Blood magic/powe well. It's not gonna compare to a support class , less strips , but it might help the situation. 

But in the end it all comes down to player knowledge. Can't trust people with off meta builds when they don't know how mechanics work..

Edited March 8, 2023 by MysteryDude.1572

[enkidu.5937]

31 minutes ago, MysteryDude.1572 said:

There is a misconception in that quote. It's not that you can play your class with your build in every game mode but rather , every class can has a build for a specific situation that can be played around the mechanical nature of every content.

According to Anet, it goes much deeper than that. At least what they intend in theory 😚 After that quote, they gave the example, that even when your friends all play the same class, you can still play together.

 

Quoting another Anet Dev:

„To folks who prefer to define by the holy trinity, Gw2 doesn't force you to pick one of the three from heal, tank, or DPS and only do that - it blends a mix depending on your build and allows you to actively swap roles or soft play between roles.“

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3czh8f/comment/ct0zl4g/

 

he referred to this vid, where he said they do not want situations like in GW1, were people were waiting for a monk to show up:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KI9PQjWoPV4&t=348s

 

53 minutes ago, MysteryDude.1572 said:

And even tho I don't find the predetermined meta roles a bad idea , yes people could adapt builds , it's just comes down with experience.

Obviously, Anet or me don't say that they are against people playing predefined roles. But when someone plays Meta role A then it demands another player min/maxing for role B, and another for role C. And that makes Anets concept of „soft play between roles“ hard.

 

I wouldn't even say that this is a problem, we can make a subgroup with players that min/max for role A+B+C+D+E, and another subgroup without e. g. a stab bot, where several people share dolyak stance or in your example DH with SyG. But that doesn't fit the expectations of some 😏

 

Agreed, it comes down to experience and understanding the mechanics of the build. Most people do not focus their play hours on coordinated Meta group fights in WvW, not even on WvW. When I played Vault thief for a year, I was familiar with that build when I joined zergs from time to time, blasted lots of combo fields, stripped all stab stacks and prot from a single glass cannon and spread them to friends, jumped some Ele to prevent their meteor cast. Found myself more usefull compared to when I tested several Meta builds. 😚

[Xenesis.6389]

7 minutes ago, enkidu.5937 said:

he referred to this vid, where he said they do not want situations like in GW1, were people were waiting for a monk to show up:

Instead we wait for firebrands to show up... 🤭

[ArchonWing.9480]

9 hours ago, enkidu.5937 said:

great skills that would contribute to the team are dismissed, cause „you have to take that 5% extra damage, cause you are DPS role“

That seems to be a player generated thing.

If your comp is flawless then yes you will go full damage because there's so many heals and cleanses that it will far outpace anyone's personal abilities. When it comes to damage or CCs or strips or heals in a large fight, it must be done in a coordinated fashion to be effective instead of people picking whatever. That's just common sense.

However, in real fights, and because the average skill level of play is nowhere near perfect, it turns out that paper builds end up having the durability of said paper.

Like a lot of people assume reflect and stab uptime is 100%, because it really should be on paper. But even in organized groups, it really isn't. So for example, even though Zeal/Radiance dragonhunter should be meta, I find most people just playing it completely ineffectively, especially the sloppier the group gets.

And your average player who doesn't have a guild group that runs with the same people every time definitely shouldn't be copying metabattle or gw2mists builds verbatim or they're going to have a really bad time. However, not even metabattle will say there's only 1 way to play and often presents alternatives.

Also there is something called lag too. That often throws a wrench even if execution is perfect.

Edited March 8, 2023 by ArchonWing.9480

[MarzAttakz.9608]

1 hour ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

That seems to be a player generated thing.

If your comp is flawless then yes you will go full damage because there's so many heals and cleanses that it will far outpace anyone's personal abilities. When it comes to damage or CCs or strips or heals in a large fight, it must be done in a coordinated fashion to be effective instead of people picking whatever. That's just common sense.

However, in real fights, and because the average skill level of play is nowhere near perfect, it turns out that paper builds end up having the durability of said paper.

Like a lot of people assume reflect and stab uptime is 100%, because it really should be on paper. But even in organized groups, it really isn't. So for example, even though Zeal/Radiance dragonhunter should be meta, I find most people just playing it completely ineffectively, especially the sloppier the group gets.

And your average player who doesn't have a guild group that runs with the same people every time definitely shouldn't be copying metabattle or gw2mists builds verbatim or they're going to have a really bad time. However, not even metabattle will say there's only 1 way to play and often presents alternatives.

Also there is something called lag too. That often throws a wrench even if execution is perfect.

 

Occassionally I'll ditch my staff Ele who fluctuates between Weaver DPS and Support Tempest in leu of my Scourge, running fairly stock standard zerg strip. Our server primarily clouds but we're trying to run more organised squads lately.

Last night we actually had 4 firebrands! God is merciful. We also had 6 what I assume to be burn guardians. 10 out of 40! kitten boy, happy times!

Or so I thought...

One stunbreak (which is my own and group stab + swiftness) on a 40 second cooldown, two wells and breach. It's as role focused as you can get. We weren't running sub-groups, problem one. The burn guards didn't have SYG because greed DPS and stability is someone else's job. Problem two. Not on voice. Problem three. Ping fluctuating from my usual 180 to 600 regularly. Problem four.

It got so bad at one point that I had to tell the commander that if he wanted wells and breach he needed to get his kitten together. All the other Necros chimed in to agree. We were collectively sick of being downed trying to do our job because there were too few group stunbreaks and stability to go around.

My point being that individually we're so focused on personal DPS that we fail to see what each person could bring to the group, even when not running a meta zerg build in a meta zerg squad. Switching out a single utility or trait may cost you 10% DPS but collectively results in 5 other people being able to apply their DPS throughout the fight. How's that not a win?

Nike recently broached the topic in relation to PvE and instanced content. His summation being that if instead of running a pure DPS build you instead ran a hybrid support DPS build you're adding far more to the group. I don't often agree with him and his ilk, but this time I do.

What does that mean to people not running in a pre-made squad? Not running a meta zerg build?

It means with minimal adjustment you can still run a variation of your roaming build. You can still join a pug squad. You can still not be a tryhard. But by being aware of more than just your own ARC total, you're facilitating better group performance overall.

[ArchonWing.9480]

3 hours ago, MarzAttakz.9608 said:

The burn guards didn't have SYG because greed DPS and stability is someone else's job

Gross. If everyone was in proper parties this is fine, but otherwise that's just being a rallybot and they shouldn't even be in the squad if they don't want to contribute.

Doubly so if they're running reflect over syg; that's literally just garbage arcdps padding.

I think everyone would agree getting interrupted even once is a dps loss.

3 hours ago, MarzAttakz.9608 said:

It got so bad at one point that I had to tell the commander that if he wanted wells and breach he needed to get his kitten together. All the other Necros chimed in to agree. We were collectively sick of being downed trying to do our job because there were too few group stunbreaks and stability to go around.

I mean it's perfectly reasonably to sacrifice a well in this case, though at the end of the day someone needs to make a concession somewhere. Namely some of the burn guards if they care about winning fights. If they don't want to support, they're probably better off running power and running the f3 stunbreak while still keeping the damage. More consistent than burn really and  better QoL at a minimum (for both the guardian and their group)

edit: Yes I know there is precisely one burn guard that would disagree and may come barreling in this thread but for the most part we are not them.

Also comfort is important for farming in pve. In PvE people farm for quite a while and do it a lot, so sweaty builds are actually not ideal because you'll just get tired and make mistakes. I feel the same applies if you're putting in a very long wvw session.

 

Edited March 8, 2023 by ArchonWing.9480

[devastoscz.9851]

Technically, you're right that these "super specialized" roles aren't necessary.... technically. There was a point where celestial barrier scourge was heavily used in organized play for example. But back then scourge could do freaking everything and anything.

The real problem is not in the traits or the stat combinations used per se, but in the weapon/utility choices associated with said builds. Most weapons are clearly designed to do damage or some sort of support, especially the offhand weapons, same goes for utilities. If you play a "hybrid" build, a lot of these skill/utility slots are not used efficiently because your build/traits do not maximize their output, whether it be damage or support. Traiting, gearing and choosing your skill slots (weapon or utility) is key to exponentially increase the effectiveness of any build and any button press.

Homogenizing the roles is generally detrimental from an output perspective, despite the overlap that may exist in a party. It also blurs the responsibilities of the roles to an extent of ineffectiveness; most skills don't have both offensive and defensive capabilities, most classes require you to commit (for a specific time frame) to attack or defend before you can switch to the other role within your build. If all your "hybrid" party is on attack mode for 3-5 seconds (in fire attunement, dumping shades, using wells, casting Longbow 5, etc.), you're all vulnerable to be hit, and you're all hitting like wet noodles. Not the case if you have a dedicated support that is built and played to specifically support the group during the attack frames. And ofc, dps that is built specifically to overcome the support gaps identified and call out by a proficient commander.

Sure, not every dps needs to run full zerk, run marauder/dragon's or something that will give you enough survivability to allow your supports to keep you up, but blurring the lines within roles is honestly not a good idea on most classes.

[MarzAttakz.9608]

1 hour ago, devastoscz.9851 said:

Technically, you're right that these "super specialized" roles aren't necessary.... technically. There was a point where celestial barrier scourge was heavily used in organized play for example. But back then scourge could do freaking everything and anything.

The real problem is not in the traits or the stat combinations used per se, but in the weapon/utility choices associated with said builds. Most weapons are clearly designed to do damage or some sort of support, especially the offhand weapons, same goes for utilities. If you play a "hybrid" build, a lot of these skill/utility slots are not used efficiently because your build/traits do not maximize their output, whether it be damage or support. Traiting, gearing and choosing your skill slots (weapon or utility) is key to exponentially increase the effectiveness of any build and any button press.

Homogenizing the roles is generally detrimental from an output perspective, despite the overlap that may exist in a party. It also blurs the responsibilities of the roles to an extent of ineffectiveness; most skills don't have both offensive and defensive capabilities, most classes require you to commit (for a specific time frame) to attack or defend before you can switch to the other role within your build. If all your "hybrid" party is on attack mode for 3-5 seconds (in fire attunement, dumping shades, using wells, casting Longbow 5, etc.), you're all vulnerable to be hit, and you're all hitting like wet noodles. Not the case if you have a dedicated support that is built and played to specifically support the group during the attack frames. And ofc, dps that is built specifically to overcome the support gaps identified and call out by a proficient commander.

Sure, not every dps needs to run full zerk, run marauder/dragon's or something that will give you enough survivability to allow your supports to keep you up, but blurring the lines within roles is honestly not a good idea on most classes.

You do make a good point. A point or rather greater perspective gained with experience, knowledge and awareness.

Succinctly put you're aware of the ebb and flow of fights, you can read the nuances.

Based on my own observations and my own behaviour too at times, far too many players only see the flow, the push push push mentality. And that loses fights regardless of the squad composition and build choices. Especially if you're not on voice with a commander constantly calling out reminders to pull you back into focus.

And as you said, something as simple as going with Dragons/Marauder vs Berserker often is the difference between becoming a down or being pulled back from the edge by your supports but this thought seldomly occurs to newer players, of which there are many currently.

I also honestly believe every player should play support at some point to better understand the dynamics. At least long enough to understand that the tag isn't just the dps fulcrum but the defensive fulcrum too. Want heals? Get on tag so your support doesn't have to chase you. That's always been a healer problem though, even more exacerbated by the utter chaos that happens in a cloud. It's far simpler in a pre-made for obvious reasons.

Anyway, I've waffled on long enough.  Gonna close off by reminding cloud comms to please be aware of that ebb and flow - your supports need brief mental breaks from the hyper focus it takes to not only survive yourself but keep others alive too, cooldowns need time to expire, DPS needs to be refocused, comms need to reassess and we all want to have fun 😊 

[enkidu.5937]

Thx to all, so far I learned a lot, pls keep going if you like ! 🤗

 

PS: Hopefully, the discussion might also be a good read for people who recently joined WvW or Zerg and still looking for their place. When I had the time, I've tested several Meta builds, and if it works, you and your Zerg are in God Mode! 😎 Test Firebrand and support your commander.

Edited March 9, 2023 by enkidu.5937

[devastoscz.9851]

On 3/8/2023 at 7:15 PM, MarzAttakz.9608 said:

Succinctly put you're aware of the ebb and flow of fights, you can read the nuances.

A lot of hours tagging, and a lot more hours multiclassing in a WvW guild. What most new players don't understand that its not so much about "the build" but the positioning, the timing and the patience. What most veterans forget is that they too had to learn this over time and over many many mistakes that lead to their deaths. A good commander is one that understands battle momentum, positions their group properly and accordingly times offensive and defensive actions; an effective group is a disciplined group (not just arcDPS damage whores spamming off cooldown).

 

On 3/8/2023 at 7:15 PM, MarzAttakz.9608 said:

I also honestly believe every player should play support at some point to better understand the dynamics. At least long enough to understand that the tag isn't just the dps fulcrum but the defensive fulcrum too. Want heals? Get on tag so your support doesn't have to chase you. That's always been a healer problem though, even more exacerbated by the utter chaos that happens in a cloud. It's far simpler in a pre-made for obvious reasons.

This is huge advice to whoever is interested in playing WvW on a more "serious" level or with a dedicated WvW group. Almost everyone in my guild has played support firebrand at one point or another, if even just to grasp the support mechanics. It is critical that everyone understands the concept of damage mitigation through stacking/target caps/dodging. It is essential that everyone understands the range limitations on support so they stay on tag. And it is imperative that they appreciate the responsibility the supports carry on their shoulders that allows the rest of the subgroup to do their jobs. There's nothing that makes you play more comfortably than knowing you have a "good firebrand (or other support)" in your subgroup.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Boh.4568]

Lately the party meta seems to be 1 FB, 3 eles and 1 DPS, so whatever comp you have you will just see enemy downed eles mistsliding around in a sea of INVULN INVULN INVULN