How to counter these Scrappers?

[haenz.9578]

Hey guys.

 

Which build would you say is very good in countering scrappers, if you dont like to play scrapper yourself?

 

Thx for help

[bethekey.8314]

Things that counter the burst scrapper builds:

- Conditions. It has no dedicated condi clear.

- CC. It has 1 stunbreak and no stability.

- Projectile hate. Completely removes grenades from play.

- Focused damage. They're running around with 1 block, 15k health, and no toughness.

- Reveal. Negates their surprise and entire elite.

Quite a lot. It's not a well-balanced build. Will get nerfed faster than cata.

Edited March 12, 2023 by bethekey.8314

[miriforst.1290]

36 minutes ago, bethekey.8314 said:

Things that counter the burst scrapper builds:

- Conditions. It has no dedicated condi clear.

- CC. It has 1 stunbreak and no stability.

- Projectile hate. Completely removes grenades from play.

- Focused damage. They're running around with 1 block, 15k health, and no toughness.

- Reveal. Negates their surprise and entire elite.

Quite a lot. It's not a well-balanced build. Will get nerfed faster than cata.

 And it will get nerfed harder than cata.

Probably twice in a row.

[Dawdler.8521]

52 minutes ago, miriforst.1290 said:

 And it will get nerfed harder than cata.

Probably twice in a row.

No it wont.

Scrapper and mechanist will be buffed, core and holo nerfed.

Come on its Anet we are talking about.

[August.5934]

2 hours ago, haenz.9578 said:

Which build would you say is very good in countering scrappers, if you dont like to play scrapper yourself?

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Detection_Pulse

[August.5934]

4 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Scrapper and mechanist will be buffed, core and holo nerfed.

Thx for being specific. Scrapper has nothing to do with grenade, it's core engi thing. Scrapper need dmg buff on her hammer skills.

[asket.5674]

What works well for me against scrapper: iframe asap when the scrapper attacks, create a little space, cc, bait dodges with low dps skills/apply condis, cc again. Burst em down.

[Bazsi.2734]

I have no problem vs. these scrappers though? Their damage is not unblockable, they can't chain reliable CC, they are weak to any form of counterpressure(be it focused damage, conditions, CC).
If you have a small enough reaction time, you stunbreak out of its opener, dodge/block/port away and immediately go on the offensive againt it... unless the enemy already has the upper hand in a teamfight, this scrapper build is not effective at all. It's slightly faster than average at farming newbies, but so is any other glass cannon build. 

[shion.2084]

Scrappers will be more difficult for non-top tier players to play against.   I play one and so does be the key above.   So you likely are frustrated by the stealth bomber noob farmer build.  It runs heal gyro, nades, shredder, blast and stealth.  OR heal, toolkit, shredder blast and stealth.

When I fight it as a scrapper I take "lock on" which causes reveal.  I take bulwark which grants me a barrier buff and a reflecting dome that grants stability.   then I take nades. (or my mortar build mele variant that uses shredder/blast/bulwar/mortar)

Then you never stand still.... you spam nade auto attack to cause the reveal.   They Thunderclap, you stun break, dodge roll, and pop defence field (while they do grenade barrage and rocket charge).   You thunderclap back, then you grenade barrage.  They run 15k health and die.

Or they're much better than you and beat you anyway... but yeah if they're much better they are going to beat you.

 

I rarely lose to stealth bombers when I have my CDs.  They can get me in the middle of a mele fight when I've burned my defensives.

For killing them... well they have 1 stun break, minimal condi cleanse, and a stealth every 60 seconds.    I mean take your pick on how to beat them (immob, condi bomb, CC, 13k spinal shivers basically one shots them).

They match up poorly against things that can survive their burst (ie. have invluns, or reaper shroud, or the like).  They rely on locking down with CC and a spike DPS burst to do the damage.

Does that help at all?
 

 

 

 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

Any CC takes their burst off the map. IF you could deal with glass thief or glass mesmer, you can deal with this. 

[shion.2084]

11 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Any CC takes their burst off the map. IF you could deal with glass thief or glass mesmer, you can deal with this. 

 
I assume this burst from stealth attack probably doesn't work well against an SB who has full counter and access to stability.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

24 minutes ago, shion.2084 said:

 
I assume this burst from stealth attack probably doesn't work well against an SB who has full counter and access to stability.

 

I guess? It also doesn't work vs any reasonably aware person that can stunbreak immediately and dodge.  I win matches vs this on Zerker.  

This is just basi glass thief/ core glass mes, but slightly slower than the former and slightly faster than the latter. 

Edited March 13, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[shion.2084]

4 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

I guess? It also doesn't work vs any reasonably aware person that can stunbreak immediately and dodge.  I win matches vs this on Zerker.  

This is just basi glass thief/ core glass mes, but slightly slower than the former and slightly faster than the latter. 

 

Certain variants of it might.... for instance if you use the toolkit, you can
0) From stealth
1) place spare capacitor down (pulsing daze), turn on shredder and blast gyro
2) Use Magnet Pull

3) Whack with pri-bar
4)Thunderclap

5)rocket jump/elector whirl

 

If a user doesn't have an insulin... or a way to instantly port away... its pretty hard to deal with the combo of CC, and AOE DPS from shredder, and the damage that throw wrench, and nade barrage can do (possibly combined with static discharge).

Of course it basically has to wait the minute, reset and do this again.  SO yeah that's what the build's got.

Edited March 13, 2023 by shion.2084

[Stalima.5490]

Just to correct some people here, Revealed is not a counter to scrapper as we generally activate stealth long before you even initially see us which means you have no basis for actually using your reveal prior to the engagement and once the engage is started there is genereally no more stealth making reveal rather pointless to take unless you specifically see the scrapper about 10 seconds before he is going to act.

Generally these builds are glass cannons and rely on spam attacking so anything that can survive the initial burst and the next 6 seconds stands a very good chance of completely reversing the fight.

 

But as people have said, they tend to struggle a bit with things that spam alot of conditions at once, typically some form of necromancer build would be particularly strong since youd be to corrupt might into weakness and apply frost to destroy the over-aggression while also having shroud etc. to completely block out the first few seconds where the damage is at its best.

[shion.2084]

4 hours ago, Stalima.5490 said:

Just to correct some people here, Revealed is not a counter to scrapper as we generally activate stealth long before you even initially see us which means you have no basis for actually using your reveal prior to the engagement and once the engage is started there is genereally no more stealth making reveal rather pointless to take unless you specifically see the scrapper about 10 seconds before he is going to act.

Generally these builds are glass cannons and rely on spam attacking so anything that can survive the initial burst and the next 6 seconds stands a very good chance of completely reversing the fight.

 

But as people have said, they tend to struggle a bit with things that spam alot of conditions at once, typically some form of necromancer build would be particularly strong since youd be to corrupt might into weakness and apply frost to destroy the over-aggression while also having shroud etc. to completely block out the first few seconds where the damage is at its best.

Well if you reveal a scrapper that is at a range... then you can just CC them and nuke them.   
I use lock on.... then I spam nades.   In addition lock on causes vulnerability.

[shion.2084]

Oh and no need to counter scrapper anymore... it can't do anything.   So guess we can lock the post as solved.

[Stalima.5490]

11 minutes ago, shion.2084 said:

Oh and no need to counter scrapper anymore... it can't do anything.   So guess we can lock the post as solved.

 

If you are referring to:

• Blast Gyro: Adjusted might from 2 stacks for 6 seconds to 1 stack for 12 seconds in PvP only.
• Kinetic Accelerators: Adjusted might from 2 stacks for 8 seconds to 1 stack for 15 seconds in PvP only.
• Sneak Gyro: Increased cooldown from 60 seconds to 75 seconds in PvP only.
• Speed of Synergy: Reduced area-of-effect superspeed duration from 5 seconds to 3 seconds in PvP only. Reduced self superspeed duration from 7 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP only.

 

what part of this solves the issue? blast gyro is the only one as you would generally want applied force in a fast kill build and not kinetic accelerators due to higher alpha

sneak gyro? so they can do it marginally less often, they usually have a big delay between uses anyway of up to 90-120 seconds so 75s will do little to change anything

speed of synergy change just makes it slightly more difficult to approach "slightly" being the key word and does not actually affect the potency.

 

The big one is the blast gyro, but due to scrapper having plenty of access to other forms of might, they can fairly easily work around this one.

 

What I am saying is that this solves an "individual build" but not the "underlying issue" because what is stopping a scrappers ally just might steroiding them, what is stopping them just making a workaround build?

Trust me, I more or less used the original meme iteration of this build with the rocket turret so I know alot about it's general concept and you do not fix something like this by tackling an individual case while leaving the whole deal behind it unaffected.

 

If anything, changing to 12s might may well just make it even more problematic as they now get increased damage for longer.

Edited March 14, 2023 by Stalima.5490

[shion.2084]

2 minutes ago, Stalima.5490 said:

 

If you are referring to:

• Blast Gyro: Adjusted might from 2 stacks for 6 seconds to 1 stack for 12 seconds in PvP only.
• Kinetic Accelerators: Adjusted might from 2 stacks for 8 seconds to 1 stack for 15 seconds in PvP only.
• Sneak Gyro: Increased cooldown from 60 seconds to 75 seconds in PvP only.
• Speed of Synergy: Reduced area-of-effect superspeed duration from 5 seconds to 3 seconds in PvP only. Reduced self superspeed duration from 7 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP only.

 

what part of this solves the issue? blast gyro is the only one as you would generally want applied force in a fast kill build and not kinetic accelerators due to higher alpha

sneak gyro? so they can do it marginally less often, they usually have a big delay between uses anyway of up to 90-120 seconds so 75s will do little to change anything

speed of synergy change just makes it slightly more difficult to approach "slightly" being the key word and does not actually affect the potency.

 

The big one is the blast gyro, but due to scrapper having plenty of access to other forms of might, they can fairly easily work around this one.

 

What I am saying is that this solves an "individual build" but not the "underlying issue" because what is stopping a scrappers ally just might steroiding them, what is stopping them just making a workaround build?

Trust me, I more or less used the original meme iteration of this build with the rocket turret so I know alot about it's general concept and you do not fix something like this by tackling an individual case while leaving the whole deal behind it unaffected.

They also didn't do a thing to nades. 

What they did was limit other options and actually more pigeon hole builds into a cheese state to eek value out of what they've left behind.

Edited March 14, 2023 by shion.2084

[Stalima.5490]

The even earlier iteration of this concept was actually the flamethrower/aed combo where you used static shock out of stealth to stun your target while you go mad with quickness.

So we have actually already been through this and scrappers just adapted and made it even worse after the FT got nerfed into uselessness.

 

This particularly early concept used aed/shredder/elixir U/Flamer/sneak gyro which barely even resemles the current builds at all.

Edited March 14, 2023 by Stalima.5490

[bethekey.8314]

2 hours ago, Stalima.5490 said:

Trust me, I more or less used the original meme iteration of this build with the rocket turret

1 hour ago, Stalima.5490 said:

The even earlier iteration of this concept was actually the flamethrower/aed combo where you used static shock out of stealth to stun your target while you go mad with quickness.

Ackshually, the original first earliest best iteration of this build concept was formed by me, aka Engi God, in the womb, whilst chatting with my twin immortal brother, Nikola Tesla. Trust me.

[miriforst.1290]

The earliest version of the 100nades build (including stealth) was back in 2013 afaik. Old enough for people to reference 100 blades. 

[Stalima.5490]

35 minutes ago, miriforst.1290 said:

The earliest version of the 100nades build (including stealth) was back in 2013 afaik. Old enough for people to reference 100 blades. 

100nades doesn't use the scrapper concept though since it almost always has visibility prior to engaging due to ultra low stealth time.

The concept on the scrapper is that they don't even get that initial awareness of you so with 100 nades, you would see it and then die if you just stand there doing nothing despite knowing they are there, with the scrapper you basically have to sit on edge waiting for them to suddenly materialise out of thin air and max damage.

Edited March 14, 2023 by Stalima.5490

[miriforst.1290]

3 minutes ago, Stalima.5490 said:

100nades doesn't use the scrapper concept though since it almost always has visibility prior to engaging due to ultra low stealth time.

The concept on the scrapper is that they don't even get that initial awareness of you so with 100 nades, you would see it and then die if you just stand there doing nothing despite knowing they are there, with the scrapper you basically have to sit on edge waiting for them to suddenly materialise out of thin air and max damage.

Back in my day we blasted our smoke fields and we liked it!

[Stalima.5490]

1 minute ago, miriforst.1290 said:

Back in my day we blasted our smoke fields and we liked it!

 completely different

[miriforst.1290]

Just now, Stalima.5490 said:

 completely different

Man i miss the hobosacks. I know i am the only one, but still...