How to counter these Scrappers?

[Stalima.5490]

oh wow that video is even pre-juggernaught too, FT not getting stability but getting free bonus toughness etc.

 

The good old days.

[noneHotBuildTest.7251]

You can't !

Coz engi op as kitten!

[Guirssane.7082]

They nerfed it a bit

[Kodama.6453]

On 3/13/2023 at 9:13 PM, shion.2084 said:

If a user doesn't have an insulin...

Did you really claim there that scrapper counters diabetics? xD

[shion.2084]

7 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Did you really claim there that scrapper counters diabetics? xD

fricken phone spell correct

[Leonidrex.5649]

On 3/14/2023 at 8:12 PM, shion.2084 said:

Well if you reveal a scrapper that is at a range... then you can just CC them and nuke them.   
I use lock on.... then I spam nades.   In addition lock on causes vulnerability.

lock on is unique as its one of the only reveals in the game that can actually counter stealth.
most reveals do kitten all

[Kuma.1503]

Stuns, conditions, weakness (reduces damage output which reduces Impact Savant sustain), immobilize (counters superspeed), focus them if they're glass. They can't port away to escape pressure like a teef, willbender, or catalyst can, and they don't have spammable stab like a warrior. 

Projectile hate shuts down their nade pressure and forces them to walk into melee. 

Burst them from range so they have nothing to hit and get no value from Impact Savant

Use non projectile based ranged skills (Scepter Ele) so you completely ignore their bubble and kill them. 

Move unpredictably so it's harder to land nades on you. Contrary to popular belief, snap target will not allow them to land nades consistently, even with grenadier. 

 

Laugh because they chose to play an objectively worse catalyst.

 

It's really not hard to counter tbh. 

Edited March 15 by Kuma.1503

[Kstyle.5829]

On 3/11/2023 at 11:19 PM, haenz.9578 said:

Hey guys.

 

Which build would you say is very good in countering scrappers, if you dont like to play scrapper yourself?

 

Thx for help

Ask your self what elo your ranking is.  If you only play unranked assume you're in bronze and that anything you're struggling against is your own fault.    

[noneHotBuildTest.7251]

On 3/15/2023 at 3:47 PM, Guirssane.7082 said:

They nerfed it a bit

But nothing change , right?

[noneHotBuildTest.7251]

On 3/16/2023 at 2:34 PM, Kstyle.5829 said:

Ask your self what elo your ranking is.  If you only play unranked assume you're in bronze and that anything you're struggling against is your own fault.    

Elo your ranking won't give you credit, I will happy to say I'm noob if that will make my main class stronger.

 

[Stalima.5490]

Also I forgot about the other factor at play whcich is the tools traitline buffs, this trait line seems subtle but is now one of the most overpowered traitlines in the game, from zero to hero since the traitline grants you almost complete protection from conditions now which means we effectively have 3 traitlines designed to protect from conditions.

Tools was historically littered with underwhelming traits but they have been buffing them substantially, the ability to remove a condition after every toolbelt skill may be too powerful when you consider the engineer should be taking alchemy or inventions for this kind of capability.

effectively the tools traitline is now one of the most powerful defensive AND offensive traitlines while still granting substantial utility, what I am saying is that they may have pushed this traitline well over its fair power budget.

Edited March 19 by Stalima.5490

[AlPower.2476]

1 hour ago, Stalima.5490 said:

Also I forgot about the other factor at play whcich is the tools traitline buffs, this trait line seems subtle but is now one of the most overpowered traitlines in the game, from zero to hero since the traitline grants you almost complete protection from conditions now which means we effectively have 3 traitlines designed to protect from conditions.

Tools was historically littered with underwhelming traits but they have been buffing them substantially, the ability to remove a condition after every toolbelt skill may be too powerful when you consider the engineer should be taking alchemy or inventions for this kind of capability.

effectively the tools traitline is now one of the most powerful defensive AND offensive traitlines while still granting substantial utility, what I am saying is that they may have pushed this traitline well over its fair power budget.

Yeah, a tratline that clean conditions when u use toolbelt; mean that if you need emergency condition removal; you have to waste stunbreaks, stabs, even heal (even if you're good on hp) when enemies like catalysts, necros, thevies, rangers, etc. continue spamming conditions like blindness, stacks of burning, 10 stacks of confusion (virtuosos) or immobile. While the rest of specs just have to press  1 skill and pum, 5 condition removal; pasive cleanse,  chance to pick Sigil of Cleansing without losing damage, etc. Good luck survive a ranger entangle in a teamfight, when u use all ur toolbelt and the game still removing 5 stacks of bleeding or poison instead of immobile or frost

 

Good for holos due to phorge mode (that removes more conditions when deactivated) and low cd toolbelt skills like Particle Accelerator.

 

And Elixir traitline... what Scrapper uses Elixir traitline on PvP and is g3+ xD

Edited March 19 by AlPower.2476

[Kuma.1503]

1 hour ago, Stalima.5490 said:

Also I forgot about the other factor at play whcich is the tools traitline buffs, this trait line seems subtle but is now one of the most overpowered traitlines in the game, from zero to hero since the traitline grants you almost complete protection from conditions now which means we effectively have 3 traitlines designed to protect from conditions.

Tools was historically littered with underwhelming traits but they have been buffing them substantially, the ability to remove a condition after every toolbelt skill may be too powerful when you consider the engineer should be taking alchemy or inventions for this kind of capability.

effectively the tools traitline is now one of the most powerful defensive AND offensive traitlines while still granting substantial utility, what I am saying is that they may have pushed this traitline well over its fair power budget.

On Scrapper specifically...

Tools cleanse is good, but it doesn't help when your bar gets loaded with conditions. 

It'll counter a condi ele/warrior because they don't have many cover condis. You can usually get the burning/bleeding off of you.

But if you've got a bar loaded with cover condis, tools struggles to keep up on its own. That's when you start turning to options like Purge gyro or Elixir S. 

If core Necro or Scourge manage to find their way back into the meta, tools condi cleanse will start looking a lot less impressive. 

It does what it's supposed to do more or less, puts more emphasis on playing around toolbelt skills. It's refreshing to have a 3rd viable traitline so we're not pidgeonholed into Alchemy + Explosives on every power build. 

The only underperforming traitlines we have now are Firearms and Inventions. 

The former, because we have zero sustain or tankiness if we choose to run it. Even condi builds struggle to slot it in because it only offers damage, and not much more than you can get from other traitlines that also have better utility/sustain in them. 

And the latter because it's only worth running with alchemy. It doesn't do enough on its own. 

[Stalima.5490]

1 hour ago, Kuma.1503 said:

The only underperforming traitlines we have now are Firearms and Inventions. 

I would disagree on inventions because inventions is extremely powerful on the builds that actually use it, the issue inventions has is that it does not provide much value to many other builds, for example the support bunker mechanist is extremely strong with the inventions traitline while an average dps builder may find the traitline to be lacking what they want.

 

Firearms, seems to literally only do damage and doesn't seem to give much of any value at all other than this one particular element and even then it still struggles to contend with it competetors somehow.

[SleepyBat.9034]

22 hours ago, Stalima.5490 said:

Also I forgot about the other factor at play whcich is the tools traitline buffs, this trait line seems subtle but is now one of the most overpowered traitlines in the game, from zero to hero since the traitline grants you almost complete protection from conditions now which means we effectively have 3 traitlines designed to protect from conditions.

Tools was historically littered with underwhelming traits but they have been buffing them substantially, the ability to remove a condition after every toolbelt skill may be too powerful when you consider the engineer should be taking alchemy or inventions for this kind of capability.

effectively the tools traitline is now one of the most powerful defensive AND offensive traitlines while still granting substantial utility, what I am saying is that they may have pushed this traitline well over its fair power budget.

There seems to be some sort of misunderstanding going on here. There's no way 1 condition cleanse on toolbelt skills gives "complete protection from conditions". And by the way, Alchemy has virtually no condition cleanse on it, you would only run that if you took Elixir C or something, and nobody does that in PvP.

22 hours ago, Stalima.5490 said:

effectively the tools traitline is now one of the most powerful defensive AND offensive traitlines while still granting substantial utility, what I am saying is that they may have pushed this traitline well over its fair power budget.

I'm going to disagree with you here about this viewpoint. Tools has options in both categories than the other trait lines so I don't agree that it's over the acceptable power budget. In general, trait lines that bring more than one thing to the table are more versatile than single-purpose trait lines (this is why I almost never run Firearms).

[SleepyBat.9034]

19 hours ago, Stalima.5490 said:

I would disagree on inventions because inventions is extremely powerful on the builds that actually use it, the issue inventions has is that it does not provide much value to many other builds, for example the support bunker mechanist is extremely strong with the inventions traitline while an average dps builder may find the traitline to be lacking what they want.

 

Firearms, seems to literally only do damage and doesn't seem to give much of any value at all other than this one particular element and even then it still struggles to contend with it competetors somehow.

Overall Inventions is one of our weakest trait lines. It has a few strong traits that carry it but the majority of them are outshined by other options. You're right about Firearms, I think both need a tune-up.

[Kodama.6453]

1 hour ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

I'm going to disagree with you here about this viewpoint. Tools has options in both categories than the other trait lines so I don't agree that it's over the acceptable power budget. In general, trait lines that bring more than one thing to the table are more versatile than single-purpose trait lines (this is why I almost never run Firearms).

Also ignoring the fact that other classes got options to spec for both, damage and condi cleanse, for years before it became a thing for engineer with tools and no one ever complained about that. For example, wilderness survival is a condition damage trait line in ranger, but also gives options for condi cleanse (like the oftenly used Wilderness Knowledge).

Why should engineer be forced into purely supportive trait lines (inventions and alchemy) to get access to condi cleanse if other classes don't have to deal with that?

[Stalima.5490]

2 hours ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

I'm going to disagree with you here about this viewpoint. Tools has options in both categories than the other trait lines so I don't agree that it's over the acceptable power budget. In general, trait lines that bring more than one thing to the table are more versatile than single-purpose trait lines (this is why I almost never run Firearms).

Assuming you take static discharge, takedown round and Kinetic battery, you now have 20% in damage increases, a damage effect on all toolbelt skills, quickness availability, superspeed, lower toolbelt cds, consistant condition cleanse usually between 10 and 20 seconds per ability allowing you t cleanse maybe once every 5 seconds in addition to any other cleanses you have, it can dodge more often because it gets vigor when using toolbelt skills.

 

There is simply no contest here at this point, tools is in effect able to do the job of 3 seperate traitlines in a signle set of traits. You are not only getting significantly increased damage with that 20% but are also gaining alot of utility with the superspeed and low cooldowns while also getting substantial support from your self cleansing and quickness.

 

Tools is simply stretching way beyond what an acceptable power budget should allow at this point because it is also doing these things better than what other traitlines specialised in these things are doing.

[shion.2084]

17 minutes ago, Stalima.5490 said:

Assuming you take static discharge, takedown round and Kinetic battery, you now have 20% in damage increases, a damage effect on all toolbelt skills, quickness availability, superspeed, lower toolbelt cds, consistant condition cleanse usually between 10 and 20 seconds per ability allowing you t cleanse maybe once every 5 seconds in addition to any other cleanses you have, it can dodge more often because it gets vigor when using toolbelt skills.

 

There is simply no contest here at this point, tools is in effect able to do the job of 3 seperate traitlines in a signle set of traits. You are not only getting significantly increased damage with that 20% but are also gaining alot of utility with the superspeed and low cooldowns while also getting substantial support from your self cleansing and quickness.

 

Tools is simply stretching way beyond what an acceptable power budget should allow at this point because it is also doing these things better than what other traitlines specialised in these things are doing.

I'm not sure about you.... but that "damaging effect" on all toolbelt skills doesn't hit worth crap for me unless the toolbelt is a targeted one.
People almost always take the healing trait for tier one.

No-one I know takes takedown round.... almost all solo q builds run swift kits, and if they don't need that (like a 4 gyro build that's gonna superspeed and burn gyros to move between points) then they take lock on to screw over those other scrappers who are stealth bombing... and those kitten thieves, rangers, and DH's.   

Anyway maybe we see different builds out there.