Perma stealth on thiefs is wrong in WvW. Offers no counterplay.

[kroxx.1032]

So lets see, thiefs can:

 

Jump in -> do dmg -> go invisible -> repeat.

 

If you are running anything that does not have reveal, let's say willbender, do you even have a chance?

 

Do not forget when they go invi, most times with their skill 5, they also blind you.

 

What is the counterplay if you don't have reveal?

 

You all fine with this?

[Fueki.4753]

1 hour ago, kroxx.1032 said:

You all fine with this?

People have complained about Stealth (in general, not only the excessive amounts on Thief) since pre-release and some of us still continue to complain about it. So, obviously, not everyone is fine with it.

However, little has been done against stealth.

[solemn.9670]

Nope, almost no one is ok with it, not even the thief mains who do it. Everyone knows it's stupid. Has been like that for a long time. From what I can see anet tried to make it more bearable but it's just not a good game mechanic lol. If someone can just stealth and then insta 7k damage (if you're lucky), stealth, repeat, with no repercussions or counters...

Not to even speak about "reveals" as if they're viable or useful, using a reveal utility just means you have one less useful utility vs everything else (and that's enough to make you lose a lot of fights). Taking a reveal trait, if you even have one, ele has no reveals at all, means you lose a better trait that you'd need vs 90% of other encounters.

[Draygo.9473]

Not disagreeing that permastealth is very annoying

 

You can hot swap to the reveal trait. Thieves dont really operate in zerg fights because all the random aoe damage anywhere kills them even in stealth. 

See a thief coming, swap to util that reveals. About to enter a zerg fight, swap to your other utility. 

 

The big problem is not every class can run the counter... Running firebrand your SoL. Ele? hah! 

 

Soulbeast is probably the only one that runs the utility most of the time, engie some of the time. 

[Dawdler.8521]

Remove the smoke field on pistol 5. 

Yes, its that easy to balance 95% of a thief.

Anet intentionally does not touch it despite for example nerfing the sneak gyro so far down its now in literal hell.

[Johje Holan.4607]

23 minutes ago, Draygo.9473 said:

See a thief coming

I see what you did there 😆

[kash.9213]

30 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Remove the smoke field on pistol 5. 

Yes, its that easy to balance 95% of a thief.

Anet intentionally does not touch it despite for example nerfing the sneak gyro so far down its now in literal hell.

That would be fine if there was another way within the same resource budget to give group stealth on Specter without having to use up a Utility slot on a long cooldown. Right now it's the one almost reliable way to group stealth for group barrier and Rot Wallow Venom on Specter and even that is hit or miss with the steps and resources it takes. 

I don't think it's a problem in peoples WvW lives right now anyway so it should just be left alone.

[hanabal lecter.2495]

38 minutes ago, kash.9213 said:

That would be fine if there was another way within the same resource budget to give group stealth on Specter without having to use up a Utility slot on a long cooldown. Right now it's the one almost reliable way to group stealth for group barrier and Rot Wallow Venom on Specter and even that is hit or miss with the steps and resources it takes. 

I don't think it's a problem in peoples WvW lives right now anyway so it should just be left alone.

Having to use a whole utility slot for Stealth sounds reasonable , stealth is just a broken mechanic in this game it should be more scarce.

[Dawdler.8521]

43 minutes ago, kash.9213 said:

That would be fine if there was another way within the same resource budget to give group stealth on Specter without having to use up a Utility slot on a long cooldown. Right now it's the one almost reliable way to group stealth for group barrier and Rot Wallow Venom on Specter and even that is hit or miss with the steps and resources it takes. 

I don't think it's a problem in peoples WvW lives right now anyway so it should just be left alone.

"This skill has been making stealth OP for the last 10 years and should be nerfed."

"Ok nerf the stealth but you have to buff stealth to make up for it."

Solid thief logic there. 10 out of 10 thieves will use confused emotes.

Edited March 14, 2023 by Dawdler.8521

[Jaruselka.5943]

46 minutes ago, hanabal lecter.2495 said:

Having to use a whole utility slot for Stealth sounds reasonable , stealth is just a broken mechanic in this game it should be more scarce.

Agreed.

 

Either make it more scarce or more risky. I would be fine if players took 50% more power/condition damage while stealthed. I play an engineer and I use Toss Elixir S all the time to get out of situations I really shouldn't have been able to. Stealth is really used as a crutch more than anything..

[kash.9213]

1 hour ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

"This skill has been making stealth OP for the last 10 years and should be nerfed."

"Ok nerf the stealth but you have to buff stealth to make up for it."

Solid thief logic there. 10 out of 10 thieves will use confused emotes.

Never said to buff stealth. Lying or making things up is a bad look for you. I said go ahead and change it, but find another way for a group mechanic to be used. 

I also said you can leave it alone because it's not a huge deal, especially right now.

I'll add another one: 

"Thieves try to promote low stealth group build." 

People who cry on the forum "na, we like crying about stealth."

 

Edited March 14, 2023 by kash.9213

[kash.9213]

1 hour ago, hanabal lecter.2495 said:

Having to use a whole utility slot for Stealth sounds reasonable , stealth is just a broken mechanic in this game it should be more scarce.

It's not reasonable. Group barrier is already difficult to provide, and that would take out a Well slot for alacrity. 

[cyberzombie.7348]

There are ways to bypass stealth. One of them are tethered aoes like guardian's binding blades and necro's tainted shakles. Another method is using a long-channeled skill like warrior's kill shot and holosmith's prime light beam. Fire sigils can also give a clear indicator if you have heavy cleave and/or aoe. 

Also developing intuition about theives also helps considering that their combos and methods are pretty routine. 

Edited March 14, 2023 by cyberzombie.7348

[Infinity.2876]

Ever tried to stealth gank as a thief in wvw

 

1. It's hard

2. You get barely any credit, It's easier and you get more in game rewards by getting camps or sentries.

 

If anything, you should be congratulating the thief on his skill.

[Hotride.2187]

3 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Remove the smoke field on pistol 5. 

Yes, its that easy to balance 95% of a thief.

Anet intentionally does not touch it despite for example nerfing the sneak gyro so far down its now in literal hell.

And then the next complaints about mobility come, when players realize its not the stealth but the mobility that is destroying them?

[RazieL.5684]

21 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

And then the next complaints about mobility come, when players realize its not the stealth but the mobility that is destroying them?

no no, it's the stealth... as an ele main without reliable cleave and 90% of my abilities being targeted in order to even cast, someone going in stealth is almost like using an invulnerability every other second...

 

the mobility is strong, but for a squish class that has seemingly endless evades, insane mobility AND stealth, at least one of these has to go... imho the stealth is the biggest problem, i rather fight a mobile target, if i can't catch them, fine... at least i can see what the hell i'm fighting! meanwhile ranger stealth should also be toned down

 

https://clips.twitch.tv/DullKindHerdJKanStyle-PzNIoh-q45ev2p_h

p.s the fight was too long to clip but the thief wins at the end...

Edited March 14, 2023 by RazieL.5684

[Dr Meta.3158]

36 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

And then the next complaints about mobility come, when players realize its not the stealth but the mobility that is destroying them?

If Quicksilver had stealth, he'd still be alive.

[Bern.9613]

6 hours ago, kroxx.1032 said:

So lets see, thiefs can:

 

Jump in -> do dmg -> go invisible -> repeat.

 

If you are running anything that does not have reveal, let's say willbender, do you even have a chance?

 

Do not forget when they go invi, most times with their skill 5, they also blind you.

 

What is the counterplay if you don't have reveal?

 

You all fine with this?

Did thief just get introduced to the game? Is thief the only one capable of stealth? You say willbender/guardian doesn't stand a chance?

Guess he didn't get that memo.

In case you aren't paying attention, thief is the most nerfed class in game. Power has been reduced in pvp, wvw from day one. In recent history,  Josh Davis said; Shadow Arts has long been a source of frustrating gameplay, particularly in competitive PvP and WvW, then proceeded to gut shadow arts. Fourteenth of February they went and turned Shadow Meld from an elite to, whatever they think it is now. When trapper runes were introduced, they took traps away from thief. In the gutting of Shadow Arts, they removed the speed boost while stealthed making it difficult to land a melee stealth attack which goes into cool down when missed. Thief has the lowest starting hp pool and the most dismal healing in the game. Thief no longer has any traits that reduce cool downs. Cal Cohen has made it his personal mission to increase initiative (initiative is used for weapon skills) costs and regen. Thief has no heal on any weapon skills, guardian leap of faith has heal on it. So what's your point? You want to be able to eliminate every thief you see but can't? You do realize that mesmer, engi, ele, ranger, warrior, herald can one shot you but I suppose you're good with that.

[Dr Meta.3158]

1 minute ago, Bern.9613 said:

Did thief just get introduced to the game? Is thief the only one capable of stealth? You say willbender/guardian doesn't stand a chance?

Guess he didn't get that memo.

In case you aren't paying attention, thief is the most nerfed class in game. Power has been reduced in pvp, wvw from day one. In recent history,  Josh Davis said; Shadow Arts has long been a source of frustrating gameplay, particularly in competitive PvP and WvW, then proceeded to gut shadow arts. Fourteenth of February they went and turned Shadow Meld from an elite to, whatever they think it is now. When trapper runes were introduced, they took traps away from thief. In the gutting of Shadow Arts, they removed the speed boost while stealthed making it difficult to land a melee stealth attack which goes into cool down when missed. Thief has the lowest starting hp pool and the most dismal healing in the game. Thief no longer has any traits that reduce cool downs. Cal Cohen has made it his personal mission to increase initiative (initiative is used for weapon skills) costs and regen. Thief has no heal on any weapon skills, guardian leap of faith has heal on it. So what's your point? You want to be able to eliminate every thief you see but can't? You do realize that mesmer, engi, ele, ranger, warrior, herald can one shot you but I suppose you're good with that.

Man went into such a rage, his text turned seething white.

[kash.9213]

2 hours ago, RazieL.5684 said:

no no, it's the stealth... as an ele main without reliable cleave and 90% of my abilities being targeted in order to even cast, someone going in stealth is almost like using an invulnerability every other second...

 

the mobility is strong, but for a squish class that has seemingly endless evades, insane mobility AND stealth, at least one of these has to go... imho the stealth is the biggest problem, i rather fight a mobile target, if i can't catch them, fine... at least i can see what the hell i'm fighting! meanwhile ranger stealth should also be toned down

 

https://clips.twitch.tv/DullKindHerdJKanStyle-PzNIoh-q45ev2p_h

p.s the fight was too long to clip but the thief wins at the end...

Somone gaining Invulnerable is also like using invulnerability. Funny how mitigation works, like Stealth.

The people who cry about stuff in this forum are getting super lazy with their arguments. They're still Confused face when you hand them an almost non stealth thief built for team play because they can't cry about that and use it as an excuse. Pick your build like people who stealth do.

 

[asterix.9614]

Dead eye is the main abuser of stealth, daze (1500 range), press 2, dodge to stealth and reposition in the perfect spot then press 1. If someone manages to deal damage, port half a map away to reset and port back in quickly, they broken af 😄

For me personally, only dead eye is the problem, the other thief builds actually requires the player to think, and has a high skill ceiling.

Edited March 17, 2023 by asterix.9614

[Xenesis.6389]

2 hours ago, Bern.9613 said:

In case you aren't paying attention, thief is the most nerfed class in game.

LMAO not even close.

 

Quote

Power has been reduced in pvp, wvw from day one.

Weird, I remember thieves that could one shot backstab from day one.

 

Quote

When trapper runes were introduced, they took traps away from thief.

Now now, let's get the history right, ghost thieves wrecked roaming for like 6 months, then some thief got cute and went and solo'd a raid boss which finally led to the nerf.

 

[Dr Meta.3158]

2 hours ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

LMAO not even close.

 

Weird, I remember thieves that could one shot backstab from day one.

 

Now now, let's get the history right, ghost thieves wrecked roaming for like 6 months, then some thief got cute and went and solo'd a raid boss which finally led to the nerf.

 

Now the thief players are trying to blind and stealth spam on the forum. Can't have nice things.

[senftube.6081]

18 hours ago, kroxx.1032 said:

So lets see, thiefs can:

 

Jump in -> do dmg -> go invisible -> repeat.

 

If you are running anything that does not have reveal, let's say willbender, do you even have a chance?

 

Do not forget when they go invi, most times with their skill 5, they also blind you.

 

What is the counterplay if you don't have reveal?

 

You all fine with this?

 

Willbender can one shot thief and is one of the strongest roaming spec right now. 

[Burial.1958]

18 hours ago, kroxx.1032 said:

So lets see, thiefs can:

 

Jump in -> do dmg -> go invisible -> repeat.

 

If you are running anything that does not have reveal, let's say willbender, do you even have a chance?

 

Do not forget when they go invi, most times with their skill 5, they also blind you.

 

What is the counterplay if you don't have reveal?

 

You all fine with this?

 

Use Sentries, Watchtowers or Target Painters. Use AoE Skills and learn to use them right. Use traps.  Use Hard CC and time it well. Use a condi bunker build. Use Target Painters or Traps. Time your burst and when u burst hit hard. Map awareness. Team up with others (this mode isn't and will never be balanced around 1vs1).  Play the thief yourself ..... to learn and understand this class. Use the mount. Use tracking Skills (willbender does have that). Set your audio in options to high. Keybind about face and to look behind you. Don't listen to Metal on high settings so that u can hear them.  Don't play the game like a NPC and half afk. Count his dodges.

Edited March 15, 2023 by Burial.1958