over-buffed grenade kit leads to scrapper getting gutted...well-done anet!

[Kuma.1503]

28 minutes ago, FrownyClown.8402 said:

Sounds like a different problem. Scrapper shouldn’t have been designed the way it is in the first place. 

This is correct. 

I swear, Scrapper is like the Ryze of this game. Pops up in the meta for a few weeks, does something, everyone hates it, gets nerfed. Eventually gets reworked. 

They can't decide what to do with it. Anet obviously nerfed the one shot build because it was unhealthy, but they didn't stop for a moment to think "Why is this bruiser spec that we keep trying (and failing) to buff the bruiser playstyle of not functoning as a bruiser? Why are they all going glass canon?"

If they did that they'd see a few issues with the class. 

>Cooldowns are too high

>Hammer coefficients overnerfed. Not enough reward for sticking in melee instead of just chucking nades/mortars. 

>Not enough stability or stunbreaks. Gets memed by Spellbreaker for this very reason

>Not enough cleanse. Gets memed by Necro for this very reason

It's an exhausting rollercoaster to be on for people fighting it AND the people playing it. The spec does not function as what it's trying to be, but when it does become meta it's because something else in the kit breaks it. Whether it's quickness + rifle at low ranks. Flamethrower at low ranks (this one stuck around the longest). Stealth one shots at low ranks. Decap builds that don't try to kill the opponent at all... 

This particular nerf is unfortunate because Scrapper isn't great outside of this cheese, and hitting superspeed hits one of two things Scrapper has going for it. Especially in this mobility crept meta. They needed to hit stealth instead as that doesn't nerf the many other C-B tier builds it had (like heal scrap and the actual bruiser build).

Edited March 15, 2023 by Kuma.1503

[Dr Meta.3158]

1 minute ago, Kuma.1503 said:

I swear, Scrapper is like the Ryze of this game. Pops up in the meta for a few weeks, does something, everyone hates it, gets nerfed. Eventually gets reworked. 

They can't decide what to do with it. Anet obviously nerfed the one shot build because it was unhealthy, but they didn't stop for a moment to think "Why is this bruiser build that we keep trying (and failing) to buff the bruiser playstyle of not functoning as a bruiser? Why are they all going glass canon?"

If they did that they'd see a few issues with the class. 

>Cooldowns are too high

>Hammer coefficients overnerfed. Not enough reward for sticking in melee instead of just chucking nades/mortars. 

>Not enough stability or stunbreaks. Gets memed by Spellbreaker for this very reason

>Not enough cleanse. Gets memed by Necro for this very reason

It's an exhausting rollercoaster to be on for people fighting it AND the people playing it. The spec does not function as what it's trying to be, but when it does become meta it's because something else in the kit breaks it. Whether it's quickness + rifle at low ranks. Flamethrower at low ranks. Stealth one shots at low ranks. Decap builds that don't try to kill the opponent at all... 

This particular nerf is unfortunate because Scrapper isn't great outside of this cheese, and hitting superspeed hits one of two things Scrapper has going for it. Especially in this mobility crept meta. They needed to hit stealth instead as that doesn't nerf the many other C-B tier builds it had (like heal scrap and the actual bruiser build).

Scrapper used to fit that criteria with the first gyro rework, it was just a low damage bunker than could tank 3 people effortlessly. So they nerfed its cooldowns and sustain.

Then it started using the core engineer kit to continously launch people off nodes. So they nerfed its cooldowns.

Then it had nothing, so they reworked its traits too allow superspeed glass cannon builds (defense based off of damage is only, obviously, going to incentivize doing as much damage as possible). Then that got nerfed.

Then it was forgotten about for a while. Then it got buffed, but other options were better... until they weren't then it got buffed again. And now here we are.

Both holosmith and scrapper are egregious designs that reward cheesy playstyles because that's the only way to be effective with them, the same problem as thief.

Until arenanet reworks core engineer to function properly in a healthy playstyle on its own, then have scrapper and holosmith be variants of that playstyle instead of just adding superspeed or adding massive burst and another bursty weapon kit. Engineer will always have this issue.

What would a healthy engineer look like? I'm not sure. The best thing I can think of right now is getting rid of the toolbelt skills and replacing them with 4 engineering kits and a 5th kit that changes based on elite specialization except mechanist (which I still believe it was a mistake to make that class). It makes it very similar to elementalist but the kits don't have a cooldown and the F1-F4 kits are all the same skills regardless of weapons. From there you can easily balance out the kits without worrying about which ones are taken and which aren't and you can have each kit suitable for a different scenario fitting engineer as the rightful role it should be. Jack of all trades. Tratlines and gear would make certain kits standout more, but all would be useful when they are needed.

Example kits would be one for power damage (grenade kits), one for condition damage (flamethrower), one for hybrid/utility (tool kit), one for support (elixir gun) with the fifth varying on selected class and being the "tradeoff".

There engineer has a substantiated role, there's a reason to pick core over elites, and mechanist is still a mistake.

[Kuma.1503]

1 minute ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

Scrapper used to fit that criteria with the first gyro rework, it was just a low damage bunker than could tank 3 people effortlessly. So they nerfed its cooldowns and sustain.

Then it started using the core engineer kit to continously launch people off nodes. So they nerfed its cooldowns.

Then it had nothing, so they reworked its traits too allow superspeed glass cannon builds (defense based off of damage is only, obviously, going to incentivize doing as much damage as possible). Then that got nerfed.

Then it was forgotten about for a while. Then it got buffed, but other options were better... until they weren't then it got buffed again. And now here we are.

Both holosmith and scrapper are egregious designs that reward cheesy playstyles because that's the only way to be effective with them, the same problem as thief.

Until arenanet reworks core engineer to function properly in a healthy playstyle on its own, then have scrapper and holosmith be variants of that playstyle instead of just adding superspeed or adding massive burst and another bursty weapon kit. Engineer will always have this issue.

What would a healthy engineer look like? I'm not sure. The best thing I can think of right now is getting rid of the toolbelt skills and replacing them with 4 engineering kits and a 5th kit that changes based on elite specialization except mechanist (which I still believe it was a mistake to make that class). It makes it very similar to elementalist but the kits don't have a cooldown and the F1-F4 kits are all the same skills regardless of weapons. From there you can easily balance out the kits without worrying about which ones are taken and which aren't and you can have each kit suitable for a different scenario fitting engineer as the rightful role it should be. Jack of all trades. Tratlines and gear would make certain kits standout more, but all would be useful when they are needed.

Example kits would be one for power damage (grenade kits), one for condition damage (flamethrower), one for hybrid/utility (tool kit), one for support (elixir gun) with the fifth varying on selected class and being the "tradeoff".

There engineer has a substantiated role, there's a reason to pick core over elites, and mechanist is still a mistake.

If kits were the profession mechanic and each elite spec changed how the kits function... That'd be a lot of work for the devs, we'd play a lot more like elementalists, but design wise... I'd be okay with that. 

It would fix core engi's problem where it has to simultanously rely on kits to function, but also desperately needs those utility slots to fit in enough cleanse, stunbreaks, and mobility to do its job. 

It would finally give each elite a proper and natural trade-off. 

That's such a huge undertaking though that I doubt they'd do it. 

[Dr Meta.3158]

2 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

If kits were the profession mechanic and each elite spec changed how the kits function... That'd be a lot of work for the devs, we'd play a lot more like elementalists, but design wise... I'd be okay with that. 

It would finally give each elite a proper and natural trade-off. 

That's such a huge undertaking though that I doubt they'd do it. 

Yeah I thought about elementalist when I first thought of the idea but it is different enough because the kits don't have a cooldown, aren't affected by your choice of weapon, and you wouldn't want to cycle through all the kits but rather use one or two depending on your build as your main kits and the other 3 depending on niche scenarios. This making it a very different playstyle from elementalist which wants to cycle through all their cycles mainly because they have to.

It wouldn't be that much work. I guarantee you that making mechanist took more work that making most of the other eod elite specs combined if not all of them and look at that mess. Also I'm very sure core Ranger took more effort to make than all of the classes to date combined.

Quote

It would fix core engi's problem where it has to simultanously rely on kits to function, but also desperately needs those utility slots to fit in enough cleanse, stunbreaks, and mobility to do its job. 

 

Exactly

Quote

It would finally give each elite a proper and natural trade-off.

Bingo

Quote

That's such a huge undertaking though that I doubt they'd do it. 

I really don't think it is, especially not in comparison to the work done on other things that aren't even a notable fraction of importance compared to this.

[Arheundel.6451]

21 hours ago, Exalted Quality.8534 said:

scrapper was never a nuisance until grenade kit was inexplicably buffed.  instead of admitting your egregious oversight, and reverting the grenade kit buffs, you destroy scrapper instead. 10/10 galaxy brain. 

That's what Anet does..always:

1) They nerf around the problem till it becomes rarely used if not by experienced players with the class

2) They go after the actual problem after nerfing everything around it...typically killing the spec

3) They wait 8+ months before applying  a series of buffs that stretch for at least 1 x year

4) Rinse and Repeat...by that time you already stopped playing or in those cases where the player is wise enough to multiclass...you swap main for the foreseeable future...only to come back to your actual main at the beginning of another buffing cycle...and leave when nerfed again at the end of the cycle.

 

I have experienced the same process over and over again with elementalist and Anet....nerf to the ground...buff it after couple of years...then nerf it again to the ground and wait 2 more years at least.

Luckily for you...engineer is not elementalist and it always has something good going on for it...the class has a good foundation, not matter how many nerfs it gets...something good bound to appear somewhere else...another hidden spec or just a consequence of yet another round of random buffs

[SleepyBat.9034]

2 hours ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

Both holosmith and scrapper are egregious designs that reward cheesy playstyles because that's the only way to be effective with them, the same problem as thief.

Wait, why does Holo reward cheesy playstyles? I don't follow you.

2 hours ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

What would a healthy engineer look like? I'm not sure. The best thing I can think of right now is getting rid of the toolbelt skills and replacing them with 4 engineering kits and a 5th kit that changes based on elite specialization except mechanist (which I still believe it was a mistake to make that class). It makes it very similar to elementalist but the kits don't have a cooldown and the F1-F4 kits are all the same skills regardless of weapons. From there you can easily balance out the kits without worrying about which ones are taken and which aren't and you can have each kit suitable for a different scenario fitting engineer as the rightful role it should be. Jack of all trades. Tratlines and gear would make certain kits standout more, but all would be useful when they are needed.

Oh so gut everything I like most about the class. That's fun.

[Leonidrex.5649]

19 hours ago, Stalima.5490 said:

The only way they will solve this is by just making the grenade kit into a full bleed/condition kit and then completely rework the bomb kit into a power dedicated kit.

 

Instead of awkwardly having tons of conditions but being a power weapon for some reason.

ah the good old power holo days, where poison nades did 5-6k dmg with poison. 😄

[Dr Meta.3158]

42 minutes ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

Wait, why does Holo reward cheesy playstyles? I don't follow you.

See title of the thread.

Quote

Oh so gut everything I like most about the class. That's fun.

Yes, fun is the point. 

[noneHotBuildTest.7251]

On 3/16/2023 at 3:04 AM, Leonidrex.5649 said:

ah the good old power holo days, where poison nades did 5-6k dmg with poison. 😄

Now you can use you pistol + nade with 20k poision damage! Pretty broken, Right?

 

[Myror.7521]

@Kuma.1503 I could be wrong Here but. Maybe the reason why it is so hard to Balance is because it need to Deal good dmg (mostly AoE) and have decent self sustain to be Meta. In that case I would rather see it reworked to a supp/Power melee spec than just a bruiser cause it would be better to Balance it out and also healthier for the Game itself . In that case .... bring more supportish Things into its Kit and we are fine. (Maybe some heal to its Hammer and some aoe boon Puls to its gyros that goes to the whole Team. Also gyros should Not be hitable and hold for x Seconds plus detornate to Deal DMG or simply heal. 

 

 

Maybe i am alone with this but yea would love to See it as a supp spec than what it actually is ^^

 

[senftube.6081]

This grenade spam is indeed super annoying and does to much dmg.

[Kodama.6453]

On 3/15/2023 at 5:29 PM, Kuma.1503 said:

>Not enough stability or stunbreaks. Gets memed by Spellbreaker for this very reason

On 3/15/2023 at 5:29 PM, Kuma.1503 said:

Flamethrower at low ranks (this one stuck around the longest)

I can't stress enough how much I hated that they nerfed flamer scrapper. It has been the closest we had to an actual bruiser playstyle, with juggernaut allowing us to stay in the fight thanks to frequent stability.

But people were hypocrites and framed juggernaut's stability as a problem, despite several bruiser specs running around with way better stability like spellbreaker or catalyst...

[Ovark.2514]

It's telling when the only way to make grenade kit good is to buff the numbers and then the only way to play it is by abusing About-Face cheese. Anything to avoid reworking skills which aren't fun to fight against!

[Jski.6180]

Kits have always been broken not due to there effects or even to there skill cd but the lack of cd after leaving the kit. There needs to be a 6 to 10 sec on a kit before you can go back into the same kit after leaving it. Must like EVERY thing in the game is balanced to.

[Kodama.6453]

2 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

Kits have always been broken not due to there effects or even to there skill cd but the lack of cd after leaving the kit. There needs to be a 6 to 10 sec on a kit before you can go back into the same kit after leaving it. Must like EVERY thing in the game is balanced to.

The fact that you can freely swap between them is the only thing that makes it worth that we have no actual core weapons and have to invest utility skill slots for kits.

If they remove this aspect, then kits need to become significantly stronger than all the weapon sets on other classes to make the trade off worth it. Otherwise we end up with just a mechanic that screws us over, because it would be better to simply have more weapons available and weapon swap like any other class.

[Khalisto.5780]

4 specs with access to nades

 

1 over performing

 

It doesnt seem like nades issue

[Eddie.9143]

Idk how ppl do it I can't hit ppl for ish when I'm using nades. Out here like Helen Keller 

[Jski.6180]

2 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

The fact that you can freely swap between them is the only thing that makes it worth that we have no actual core weapons and have to invest utility skill slots for kits.

If they remove this aspect, then kits need to become significantly stronger than all the weapon sets on other classes to make the trade off worth it. Otherwise we end up with just a mechanic that screws us over, because it would be better to simply have more weapons available and weapon swap like any other class.

Its the only thing in the game that works that way even ele cant freely swap back into an atument that it just swapped out of. Your taking a kit it should take a bit of time to get it back up after you put it away. It dose not have to be crazy long but it should be less about spaming and more about timing skills out on the kits them self.

[SleepyBat.9034]

4 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

Kits have always been broken not due to there effects or even to there skill cd but the lack of cd after leaving the kit. There needs to be a 6 to 10 sec on a kit before you can go back into the same kit after leaving it. Must like EVERY thing in the game is balanced to.

That wouldn't change anything, you'd just spend all your skills while in the kit and then leave. To be honest I don't go back into a kit after leaving it often.

[Jski.6180]

35 minutes ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

That wouldn't change anything, you'd just spend all your skills while in the kit and then leave. To be honest I don't go back into a kit after leaving it often.

That is how the game works for all of the other classes. Kits do have low cd on there skills you would have to balances the risk reward for jumping out of a kit knowing you cant go back into it the moment you throw up an def skill (or aggressive if your using an support/def kit.)

[Kuma.1503]

1 hour ago, Jski.6180 said:

Its the only thing in the game that works that way even ele cant freely swap back into an atument that it just swapped out of. Your taking a kit it should take a bit of time to get it back up after you put it away. It dose not have to be crazy long but it should be less about spaming and more about timing skills out on the kits them self.

Fine we'll make them like ele attunements then. We get to have 4 kits on our bar at a time at all times with no cost. Letting us  freely use our utility slots for whatever else we might need. 

In exhange, our kits go on cooldown whenever we swap in and out of them. 

If we take the downside of attunemnts, we get the upside as well. Only fair. 

 

Edited March 18, 2023 by Kuma.1503

[Bazsi.2734]

Time to rework scrapper. The first 2 reworks... ehh... well third time's a charm you know?

[Jski.6180]

47 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Fine we'll make them like ele attunements then. We get to have 4 kits on our bar at a time at all times with no cost. Letting us  freely use our utility slots for whatever else we might need. 

In exhange, our kits go on cooldown whenever we swap in and out of them. 

If we take the downside of attunemnts, we get the upside as well. Only fair. 

 

From what i understand kits use to be eng f1-f5. It would make core eng better over all and weaker for scraper mechanest holo.

[Leonidrex.5649]

On 3/19/2023 at 12:38 AM, Bazsi.2734 said:

Time to rework scrapper. The first 2 reworks... ehh... well third time's a charm you know?

make papa ryze proud