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Why everyone is so concerned about Meta and effectiveness in PvE?


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@Lunarlife.5128 said:Artifact grind doesn't even begin to compare to legendary grind in GW2.

Gold sinks aren't exactly dificult... Only time consuming and Which can be bypassed by lots of gold...

Now I remember doing Fangs of the Father back on Cataclysm, and that was one hell of a grind through the most horrid Raid I ever played on that game (Also the last one I did seriously)

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@Halan.8951 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Halan.8951 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Halan.8951 said:

After reading about group compositions and PoF "farming", decided to ask a question.

I've been playing GW2 on and off for a long time, and only fully switched to it after PoF announcement.Before that I played WoW for years on medium to high lvl. Heroic raids with some bosses on Mythic, and M+ dungeons at reasonably high lvl (it's kinda like Fractal scaling, but also a timed run).

So what puzzles me, despite that game being less casual and having end-game power progression (getting ascended armor is NOTHING compared to Artifact Power grind and hoping for titan-forged gear), only highest-lvl raiders like those going for world-first kills actually did class stacking. Most people just played what classes they liked. Of course there was/is a damage disparity, and different classes shine in different situations, but still ALL classes in ALL specs did ALL content, just not world firsts.

I don't remember class/spec completely excluded from raids or dungeons for years in that game (such problems existed in Classic and BC). I rarely seen someone denied from content on basis of playing a perceived weak class, mostly on personal performance or gear lvl. Yet reading this forum I see this every day, and it made me not want to even attempt harder content, knowing that such ideas are very prevalent among players.

tldr: Why such emphasis on being super-optimized in an ultimately very casual game? Why groups are so rigid in class selection? And why ruin the game for others with demands, and create endless frustration on forums?

If it's about gold per hour, and not content completion, isn't working and then buying gems a better use of your time? So you can actually do enjoyable content in a game, instead of worrying about being "effective". 40g per hour is about 140 gems at current exchange rate, and compared to buying 800/1600 gems it's about 1.75$ per hour.

Are we talking about the same WoW where there is/was a clear best in slot composition for record mythic+ runs? Tell me, how many DK tanks were there at launch of Legion in high end mythic+ groups? How many were warriors?

You are essentially comparing mid-level encounters in WoW which people start outgearing very fast to a game where you can't outgear content.

That's just it. In WoW, eventually classes matter less since everyone dedicated enough will outgear the content severely enough while Blizzard nerfs its difficulty. 3 months into an expansion class matters little. Can't do that in GW2.

EDIT: I do have to agree on the farming though, but then again, if people want to maximize their time farming, why not?I said that I played at medium to high lvl, definitely not cutting edge or world first, but looking at completion statistic of playerbase it was higher than average. My achievements were about Mythic + lvl 20 and Ahead of the Curve: Helya, and I quit playing mid Nighthold. I had no problems playing as WW/BM monk, and often got compliments on tanking and dps.

I'm absolutely not sure how GW2 raid and fractal difficulty compares to WoW diffuculty. Do you need same lvl of optimization for Forsaken Thicket like for Mythic Tomb of Sargeras? If no, then any class goes.

Of course there were lots of PUGs that wanted to overgear content, but on mid-lvl playing (Heroic raids and average lvl M+), I don't remember any class exclusion, I've regularly seen even classes that were considered weak.And yes, when I made groups for M+ I sometimes declined players, but it was mostly because of stupid names, or when I was really in the mood of pushing keystone lvl (but that was done with trusted guildies in 90% of the time).

GW2 is not the same, the only thing we outgear is -80 content, and even then, we're scaled down. So the skill, traits, and stats we use are what give us an edge over enemies. Then you can maximize even further with a good skill rotation and group composition.

From experience I don't think the majority of people use meta builds. And I think the majority that do use meta, only do so as a guideline or template then change a few things around to feel more comfortable and don't follow skill rotation. Unless they're in a speed run group for dungeons, fractal, or raid.

What I'm actually talking about is examples of fixed group composition, like you need Chronomancer, Banner Warrior and Kormir-knows-what else to even step into Dessa's Laboratory, otherwise don't bother. So If you're not one of those classes, better check Trading Post for a rope and some soap.At least that's what I get after reading Fractal and Profession forums.

It looks like November 7 patch unified some of the class buffs (like Grace of the Land), but Alacrity still exists. When you have mandatory (or perceived as mandatory) buffs that are available to only few classes/builds, and a fixed amount of spots in a group, it creates problems. Reminds me of time when only Shamans had Heroism/Bloodlust in WoW. Which meant that every raid or even group needs one. Was fixed by giving a similar skill to other classes, and creating a lesser version as a tradeable item.

Part of what you are seeing is the lack (or better yet the design around) of a strong homogenization which has already happened in WoW. WoW has a way less heavy buff and debuff meta than GW2 and most buffs can be provided by multiple classes taking away any uniqueness which was once held by classes.

GW2 has a way advanced and more encompassing boon meta which requires certain classes provide those (might, fury, alacrity, quickness, protection, resistance, etc.). WoW has nothing like that, it's all about tank, heal and damage. Finally WoW gets to redesign classes and mix and match skills and balance however they want ever expansion and they still fail miserably and need massive test server community help balancing their game. The start of each expansion shows this very clealy.

The November 7 patch essentially made it easier to acquire might with only 1 druid instead of 2 warriors freeing up more slots in the raid meta. The lack of a strict trinity makes it way harder to design and balance classes against each other in GW2. Removing the boon and support meta from GW2 would make the combat insanely shallow.

Finally I'd recommend you actually play some of the content in this game instead of just reading about it. The fractal meta is way more tolerant than you might expect from reading the forums. The same goes for the raid meta. You are essentially reading on a 99th percentile level about group compositions and balance while a majority of the player base will never reach such results. It's the equivalent of a new player going to WoW, reading about mythic raids with a new expansion launch and trying to understand the LFG or normal raid meta.

Thanks for your explanation.

I actually did some fractals in late 2015, when I was playing Revenant, and it was fine on starter lvl. The thing is, now I'm maining a Reaper (Scourge is definitely not my thing), and it seems they're not very welcomed in group content.About WoW and group buffs - Before Cataclysm and Mists of Pandaria buff homogenisation (more classes could provide the same effect, so they could be mixed in different ways) there actually was quite a lot of optimizing of class composition, but then developers changed tune to "Bring the player, not the class", and it was toned down. I'd say it provided a positive effect on class diversity and raid participation.

My active time in WoW was Vanilla through end of BC with some WotLK as well as returning for Warlords and Legion (4 weeks and 6 weeks respectively) during which I played with friends who remained loyal to the game over the entire time.

The streamlining of class buffs is both a boon and a curse. It's strips the classes of a unique feel in favor of easier balance. That's fine in a game where a majority of the enjoyment comes from acquiring gear and constant upgrades. It might not be a good idea in a game where a gear cap is eventually reached.

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@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:But the point of all that is that how strong a class is, is directly proportional to how much enjoyment a player can get out of playing it, and it is also proportional to the amount of income a player can get.

You know, I usually agree with what you say, but I strongly disagree with the above. Builds that kill faster can translate to more income, sure, but how much fun a player has? It doesn't rely only on how much powerful a profession is.

I have just made a Deadeye. I'm having a lot of fun with it. I'm sure it takes me ten times longer to kill something than it would take you. Yet, I'm having fun playing it my way. It's not a matter of killing things faster - what's the hurry? It is a game and I'm playing by myself anyway. It's a matter of playing the game in a way that I like. I know some players have fun by being the most efficient as possible, but that's not everyone.

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@TexZero.7910 said:

@zinkz.7045 said:

I'm absolutely not sure how GW2 raid and fractal difficulty compares to WoW diffuculty. Do you need same lvl of optimization for Forsaken Thicket like for Mythic Tomb of Sargeras? If no, then any class goes.

GW2 raids are a joke, most of the bosses (supposedly designed for 10 man groups) have been completed by groups using 10 of one class (done with multiple classes), people 4-6 manning the raids and I think 2 bosses were even soloed by a condi thief, which makes all the meta nonsense even more funny, you can complete the raids in this game with nearly any composition. (and remember there is no out-gearing or out-leveling raids in this game, so this is literally the laughably termed "end game" raids)

The solo's done by thief exploited bugs (or rather shortsighted design).

Yes they've been cleared by low man groups, or all class groups. The thing to remember is those groups also already knew the fights going in and had pretty much mastered the mechanics required to do so. It's not quite a fair comparison to use these groups either as they all used Meta builds to do so.

You missed the point, he asked about the difficulty of GW2 raids, in most games if players could complete the "hardest content in the game" (well in PvE at least) with half the players the raid was designed for, then people would think the devs had massively screwed up and hugely under-tuned the raid (or failed to spot an exploit), but in GW2 that is simply where the bar is set, very, very low.

And yes they used meta classes when they 4-6 man it, but that is the point, the raids in GW2 have such a wide margin for success that you only actually need to run an optimal comp to under-man it, with 10 people you can run nearly any comp, hence the fuss some people make about "meta" is laughable and just shows the GW2 PvE playerbase for what it is.

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@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:Are they in awe over how somebody can do incomprehensible amounts of damage? Do they constantly have to reassure themselves that in a real fight they would be the winner? Does the thought never come to their mind?

Speaking as someone who doesn't bother all that much about playing optimally, I have been in these situations and the last thing on my mind was awe. Yes, at some point someone sat down and crunched the numbers, but most people who would wipe the table with mobs I struggle with simply read up on someone else's work. The biggest thing they do, if at all, is learn a rotation by heart, maybe with some alternatives depending on the situation. So no, certainly not awe. And I certainly don't think in terms of real fights because what does that even mean? PvP? Couldn't care less about that.What goes through my head in situations like these is either gratitude because I really wasn't doing well and didn't want to lose or annoyance because I was having fun and you came in and cut it short. Or, of course, indifference because it was just some random mob out there that was between me and whatever I wanted to do.

Recently, though, I had a bit of luck and was able to sell something for a substantial amount of gold on the TP, so I decided to finally upgrade my gear a bit, but I'm still not running berzerker's or viper's, I'm running marauder's cause I prefer that little bit of extra survivability.

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@Erasculio.2914 said:

@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:But the point of all that is that how strong a class is, is directly proportional to how much enjoyment a player can get out of playing it, and it is also proportional to the amount of income a player can get.

You know, I usually agree with what you say, but I strongly disagree with the above. Builds that kill faster can translate to more income, sure, but how much fun a player has? It doesn't rely only on how much powerful a profession is.

I have just made a Deadeye. I'm having a lot of fun with it. I'm sure it takes me ten times longer to kill something than it would take you. Yet, I'm having fun playing it my way. It's not a matter of killing things faster - what's the hurry? It is a game and I'm playing by myself anyway. It's a matter of playing the game in a way that I like. I know some players have fun by being the most efficient as possible, but that's not everyone.

My deadeye has something I call buzz-saw mode. It is when I chain BQoBK with mark on several targets, giving me near permanent quickness and several ancillary buffs. I use shadow shot to warp from enemy to enemy, killing everything in sight really fast. The time to kill for any single enemy is usually one second, not including the animation time for Mark. I can also do this at range, by hunkering down with the rifle then whipping around with TRB and mark. Anything within a 1500 radius gets shredded in a hail of bullets. The Deadeye overall is underrated.

That aside, my point is that nobody likes to feel weak, not that everyone wants to be top tier. It is a general goal in life for people to want to affect change in the world. If you want me to cite evidence for this, then I will direct you to all the threads made in the Necromancer forum after scourge had a bugfix that dropped it from top tier DPS to garbage tier DPS. That place caught fire from all the rage coming from necro players. Nobody was saying "Hey, I'm perfectly fine with the scourge being slow, frail, weak, and generic". Even if you do things that aren't necessarily best in slot, you still need to do things.

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@tairneanach.8427 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:Are they in awe over how somebody can do incomprehensible amounts of damage? Do they constantly have to reassure themselves that in a
real
fight they would be the winner? Does the thought never come to their mind?

Speaking as someone who doesn't bother all that much about playing optimally, I have been in these situations and the last thing on my mind was awe. Yes, at some point someone sat down and crunched the numbers, but most people who would wipe the table with mobs I struggle with simply read up on someone else's work. The biggest thing they do, if at all, is learn a rotation by heart, maybe with some alternatives depending on the situation. So no, certainly not awe. And I certainly don't think in terms of real fights because what does that even mean? PvP? Couldn't care less about that.What goes through my head in situations like these is either gratitude because I really wasn't doing well and didn't want to lose or annoyance because I was having fun and you came in and cut it short. Or, of course, indifference because it was just some random mob out there that was between me and whatever I wanted to do.

Recently, though, I had a bit of luck and was able to sell something for a substantial amount of gold on the TP, so I decided to finally upgrade my gear a bit, but I'm still not running berzerker's or viper's, I'm running marauder's cause I prefer that little bit of extra survivability.

Marauder is basically berserkers without sigil of force. The damage difference between the two sets is barely noticeable. Either way, I don't think you have to be special chosen one of numbers and theorycrafting for running a meta build to matter. There's three ways to get to the meta (theorycrafting, following a guide, lucking out), but the end result is the same: a capable and effective build.

Real fight means whatever the person wants it to. Whether it be PVP, WvW, a veteran or elite mob, fighting as a zerg against champions or legendaries, a new encounter, etc. and so on.

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@Veprovina.4876 said:I'm more and more convinced that the people from Qtfy who post meta builds do it to monopolize raiding for the select few so that they can charge everyone else a fee for raid runs while teaching no one actual raid mechanics.

I wonder who taught that "select few" about raid mechanics?

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I only want to do raids to get the armour after i get that i will never raid again and meta builds wont be something i really invest in. I do keep an eye on them incase they find something I missed or something new or a change to a skill i dident know about. Apart from that you should play to have fun not play a certain build from a website cause some other guy/gal says its the most optimal for your class.And personally I wish raids were never introduced to GW2 because it creates elitist behaviors and its always the average gamer's who miss out on the nice content & rewards they always shove behind the raid gate.

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@Haishao.6851 said:

@Veprovina.4876 said:I'm more and more convinced that the people from Qtfy who post meta builds do it to monopolize raiding for the select few so that they can charge everyone else a fee for raid runs while teaching no one actual raid mechanics.

I wonder who taught that "select few" about raid mechanics?

Theres a Raid guide on qT as well.... While improbable, there is some evidence to back up his suspicions.

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The problem with these meta-obsessed people is they forget that they are playing a video game and they set ridiculous requirements just to enjoy parts of a GAME. Which is lame and if I were a game dev I would at least try to punish that kind of behavior instead of encouraging them like Anet did when they allowed dps meters. This is a game, not a job, we don't have to prove anything and live up to silly expectations. To completely get rid of this meta addiction, we would have to change the midset of these people which is not possible. At least there are workarounds: go with friends/guild and start your own groups that say "all welcome" in LFG.

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@Mea.5491 said:The problem with these meta-obsessed people is they forget that they are playing a video game and they set ridiculous requirements just to enjoy parts of a GAME. Which is lame and if I were a game dev I would at least try to punish that kind of behavior instead of encouraging them like Anet did when they allowed dps meters. This is a game, not a job, we don't have to prove anything and live up to silly expectations. To completely get rid of this meta addiction, we would have to change the midset of these people which is not possible. At least there are workarounds: go with friends/guild and start your own groups that say "all welcome" in LFG.

Some "meta-obsessed"-people find it fun to be effective, therefor they set requirements to be sure that everyone else around them is effective as well.Who we are to blame them ?

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For the majority of players, meta builds are irrelevant as they're not trying to min max, they're just enjoying the game and playing it how they see best.

Other players like to speed through content as they do it daily and they use meta builds to try and be as effective as possible and achieve the best synergy with other classes in their party.

It also very much depends on the content they are doing. If you are running raids or even fractals, people tend to expect you to contribute as much as possible. On the other hand, in open world you play with your style and what you find is best. If you believe a good defense is a strong offense go for it. If you think prioritising toughness and vitality is the best form of survival, go for it.

Just remember that the whole point of a game is to enjoy yourselves.

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@Arzurag.7506 said:Some "meta-obsessed"-people find it fun to be effective, therefor they set requirements to be sure that everyone else around them is effective as well.Who we are to blame them ?

Yeah, well, it depends on the player. When I play games, I just want to relax in a peaceful environment to kill stress, instead of living up to other people's expectations just like in real life.

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@ThomasC.1056 said:

  • In most open-PvE cases, sustain and support are worthless because you can't afford a fight to drag. Some mobs have an insane HP pool, and hit really hard, nullifying all your investment in such stats and skills. This is why most specs have been damage oriented, with the highest damage output possible : just to play it safe.

While I agree somewhat, a lot of players out there seems to think they're better than they really are, meaning they run zerker builds but spend half of the time in downed state. A bit of sustain and condi cleanse goes a long way in preventing this, and would benefit all in the long run (less time in down state, and less time wasted on ressing these players).

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@zinkz.7045 said:

@TexZero.7910 said:

@zinkz.7045 said:

I'm absolutely not sure how GW2 raid and fractal difficulty compares to WoW diffuculty. Do you need same lvl of optimization for Forsaken Thicket like for Mythic Tomb of Sargeras? If no, then any class goes.

GW2 raids are a joke, most of the bosses (supposedly designed for 10 man groups) have been completed by groups using 10 of one class (done with multiple classes), people 4-6 manning the raids and I think 2 bosses were even soloed by a condi thief, which makes all the meta nonsense even more funny, you can complete the raids in this game with nearly any composition. (and remember there is no out-gearing or out-leveling raids in this game, so this is literally the laughably termed "end game" raids)

The solo's done by thief exploited bugs (or rather shortsighted design).

Yes they've been cleared by low man groups, or all class groups. The thing to remember is those groups also already knew the fights going in and had pretty much mastered the mechanics required to do so. It's not quite a fair comparison to use these groups either as they all used Meta builds to do so.

You missed the point, he asked about the difficulty of GW2 raids, in most games if players could complete the "hardest content in the game" (well in PvE at least) with half the players the raid was designed for, then people would think the devs had massively screwed up and hugely under-tuned the raid (or failed to spot an exploit), but in GW2 that is simply where the bar is set, very, very low.

And yes they used meta classes when they 4-6 man it, but that is the point, the raids in GW2 have such a wide margin for success that you only actually need to run an optimal comp to under-man it, with 10 people you can run nearly any comp, hence the fuss some people make about "meta" is laughable and just shows the GW2 PvE playerbase for what it is.

No, you kinda missed my point. You cannot simply write off the "Meta" or even "Meta builds" in either situation. You also cannot write off players putting in several hours a day for weeks on end to low man the content. Both of those played a part. Its safe to say without the groups optimizing to no end they wouldn't have been able to low man either.

Therefore the meta is literally chosen because of its efficiency for raids. It ensure that when played properly you on average have a better chance of success because you are less likely to see additional phases (less phases, less chance to fail). There's nothing wrong with this as far as raiding goes.

The problem is literally only when people who aren't raiders or generally just want to chest thump take this line of thinking to public play instead of keeping it within their static or appropriate community(IE taking that mentality to Open World).

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@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:I wonder what people think when they see me. Wandering around in the overworld, I see a lot of poorly built classes slowly plinking away at enemies using their ranged weapons. Half of their fight is spent running away from the scary enemies, and that is a LOT of time to take for every single mob on the map. Meanwhile, I'm running around in full zerk or full vipers, laying waste to the world like a one-man Searing. Very often I'll walk up to these enemies that is being plinked to death and kill its entire group in 2 seconds, all within view of the other player. What goes through that person's mind when they see somebody effortlessly mow down enemies that they take forever to defeat? Are they in awe over how somebody can do incomprehensible amounts of damage? Do they constantly have to reassure themselves that in a real fight they would be the winner? Does the thought never come to their mind?

It is a mistake to think that PVE class balance is solely a social pressure. The meta comps are a product of the tools that each class has available, so they represent to a large degree how well that class performs in every facet of the game. A class that is low DPS in the raid comp is going to be low DPS everywhere. A class that has low CC in the raid comp is going to have low CC everywhere. A class that is extremely frail in a raid comp is going to be extremely frail everywhere. A class that has no cleave... you get the idea. But the point of all that is that how strong a class is, is directly proportional to how much enjoyment a player can get out of playing it, and it is also proportional to the amount of income a player can get.

Nobody likes to be impotent. Every player likes to be able to affect the field in some way. Classes are sold on their themes and aesthetics, and when a player first starts out they pick their class based on these things. A poorly balanced PVE class, therefore, represents players dropping the game because they feel useless or can't do anything. The game is getting harder, and players can't always hide their inefficiencies in a group. In the same vein, nobody likes to be poor, and a shorter time to kill means greater income per hour and more free time.

It is just better overall to use full glass cannon gear and high DPS builds. GW2 was designed PVP first, so there isn't truly a "glass cannon" in the game. You'll get more money, more time, people around you will like you more, and you'll be more effective in smaller numbers.

I'll bite.By very very first character WAS going to be a dual pistol user, but I couldn't find a class from the descriptions in the creator that fitted that, but I did see a necromaniac class that raised the dead so I went with that.I'm sure people looked at me weird as up until less than a week ago I was like a 90% Staff user on my Necro and 10% Sceptre/Dagger user. Oh and was (and still) a minion master. Sometimes I could pick down multiple groups quickly, sometimes it would take a while. Could've taken down many champions, but still took time at least.I'm sure people wondering why the hell I'm playing like that while under 80 and even after 80 I stayed a Necro and not a Reaper as I didn't like how Reaper was for Minions and I don't like the Greatsword at all on it.

The thing is? I didn't really care what others thought because at the end of the day personally, I was having fun and most of the time I'm on GW2 I was alone anyway. The only time I was around people was if an event or meta was going on, but the rest of the time I'm all to myself.If I saw anyone mowing down enemies as you said I usually don't give it a second thought either. I would assume (and hope) that they're enjoying their time and like what they're doing. That's all that matters I would say. If you're not having fun within a game, then why the bloody quaggan are you playing?

I was also a dual pistol Thief. GASP! I know... and now I'm a dual pistol Deadeye. GASP! I never tried Daredevil as once again, I'm not a melee player and never was one.Some would say about "get out of your comfort zone" and such, and the thing is I do try melee from the last 17 years I've played MMOs. My issue every time wasn't melee in general, but while some call me one for years now... I don't like playing fetch with enemies and try to chase after them while they run off and out of my melee reach... even worse now with some in PoF like the Djinn or that one Silver Foraged Surfer(s) that goes all around and don't get me started on those teleporting enemies... or some of those bounties like that one hyena. I just don't find that enjoyable.

The last few days after the changes that came with Reaper, I decided to give it another go and was appalled with the changes. Ran right back to Necro until I decided on , "I wonder if I can somehow make Scourge Minion Maker a thing". Checked online a bit on some Scourge things and try to compare it to what I had on Necro and what I might gain or lose with Scourge and mixed up a bit with my build. Now at least in many places, I'm somewhat of one of those as you stated "plowing through enemies" types. Taking out veterans like normals, normals dying like low-level enemies, Elites dying like veterans and Champions are not taking forever anymore.Am I having fun still? Damn right I am, but here's the thing... I'm not doing it once again for people to see me either, I'm doing it because once again... I'm having fun.

I do agree though that no one likes to be impotent (which is how I feel on many classes which is why I won't touch them like Warrior, Elementalist, and Engineer), but I think the raid/fractal community as a whole kind tries to make anyone who don't use a specific build or play a specific way impotent.The issue I see is that if I ever wanted to try raiding or non-Tier 1 fractals (as I never did all on the 1st Fractal page yet), I would probably want to look for those that are the casual types that are more in it to just play it and not "TIME IS MONEY!" types.But from all that I've seen in the game, those guys are rarer than the Staff/Scythe from Shadow Behemoth or I would say they don't exist as I have not seen one.

I never liked glass cannon types. I didn't like Dead Souls for certain reasons and that was kind of one of them. I'm not going to make GW2 experience a Dead Souls experience.

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@starlinvf.1358 said:

@Haishao.6851 said:

@Veprovina.4876 said:I'm more and more convinced that the people from Qtfy who post meta builds do it to monopolize raiding for the select few so that they can charge everyone else a fee for raid runs while teaching no one actual raid mechanics.

I wonder who taught that "select few" about raid mechanics?

Theres a Raid guide on qT as well.... While improbable, there is some evidence to back up his suspicions.

His suspicions are nothing else than stupid

qtfy post meta builds "to monopolize raiding for the select few so that they can charge everyone else a fee for raid runs while teaching no one actual raid mechanics. "

How are they monopolizing anything? Only arenanet have control over raid. Everyone lv 80 with a squad can enter raid.Who are the select few? Literally everybody with an internet access and the ability to read?How are they charging people a fee for raid runs? I just went into a raid to try it and I was never charged anything.How is creating and posting guides to their website that is freely available to everybody with an internet access, "teaching no one"?

Who taught qtfy about raid mechanics? Certainly not their own guides right?Why not ask who taught them to teach you too?

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@Ensign.2189 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

The problem is, that these compositions do matter. There can be a visible difference in effectivness between those. It's okay if you are well past the required threshold for an encounter, but what if you are very close to that threshold? In such a case going with some "less-meta" approach can be a difference between success and a failure. This is most important not for the highest tier players, but for those that are just learning.

The main problem is that the arrow doesn't point the direction you think it does. If you are on the threshold, compositions that are some combination of 'more familiar' and 'less demanding' is going to pay off more quickly.

For a variety of reasons 'meta' compositions are built on a foundation containing many single points of failure, with a DPS contingent chosen to maximize performance when nothing goes wrong. That is an
idiotic
set of parameters to optimize around if you're a group on the margin.

There's a reason why meta includes builds that are there not because of highest dps, but because they can have great dps with easy rotation, and builds that are there to provide survivability buffer to others. Yes, things you speak of are part of the meta as well.

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@Halan.8951 said:Why such emphasis on being super-optimized in an ultimately very casual game? Why groups are so rigid in class selection?And why ruin the game for others with demands, and create endless frustration on forums?

There are players that play "very casual" and there are players that don't play "very casual" but "super optimized" (using your words here). Both sorts of players have a place (and their content) in GW2 and can have fun playing the game and be happy.

The frustration starts only (for both groups), when those two groups mix, mostly in fractals and raids. High level fractals and raids are not considered "very casual" but instead "hard content" and "endgame content".

So, if you want to play high level fractals and raids "very casual" (which can be done if your are skilled enough) you should look for other players with the same mindset.As examples, you can start your own LFG group or you can start or join a guild with the same mindset.

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Some people want the meta for faster clear times, specifically in fractals or raids where there's a speed limit because of reward cooldowns. They want to get in, get the loot, and get out so they can go do something else. Not all players are super concerned with that sort of thing, but for players who prioritize loot and earning gold per hour as the primary reason they continue to play, its all about getting back to that farm, or getting through their daily/weekly encounter they've done multiple times as fast as possible so they don't feel like they wasted their time. Often its a point of pride for players in MMOs to have an encounter "on farm" and a lot of people find it very satisfying to crush encounters as quickly as possible because it validates all the practice they've put in to that encounter and makes them feel good about that progress.

Other people want the meta because they haven't invested as much time or effort or just aren't as good at the game, and they see the first type of player blazing through content and think running meta comps is some magic bullet that's going to compensate for their own lack of practice, knowledge of the encounter, or player skill. You've all met this type of person. The one that can't help but constantly blame the people around them for failure, yells at you for playing the wrong thing, and then somehow manages to be the guy you spend the most time picking up off the floor.

The vast VAST majority of people, however, fall somewhere in between those two extremes, having had plenty of practice at various encounters and having learned and become really proficient with at least one favorite build. Usually that one character (or for some people that handful of characters) is built well enough to succeed in its role, and these people are more concerned with clearing with that favorite characters have grown attached to. These people have accepted that taking a little longer to clear something with a daily or weekly cooldown is a price they're willing to pay when they get to do it with their favorite build because they value playing that favorite character, and don't feel the need to rush completions because their metric of success isn't gold per hour, but rather "can I complete X for its daily or weekly reward" because they're not heading in to a chain of other speedruns directly afterward.

The community as a whole isn't nearly as meta focused as the forums would have you believe. Most people just want clears and don't care how fast they get them as long as they can clear stuff without the party wiping too many times.

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