Kuma.1503 Posted March 15, 2023 Share Posted March 15, 2023 I'm legitimately curious about this. Why does this only come up when talking about engi nades? Aparently it's toxic to kite while firing behind yourself while running with superspeed. Yet for some reason, this never comes up in regards to DrD dashing away, kiting behind them with Sb2. Ele superspeeding away on Fresh air builds, kiting behind themselves with Dragon's Tooth, Phoenix, Shatterstone, Dust Storm, Lightning Strike, and Blinding flash. (Short cooldowns on these btw) Renegade shortbow with both the 2 and 4 having 360 targeting. While they lack superspeed, they have Impossible odds and targeted ports. Is it only toxic if it's 360 degree targeting on an auto attack? Would complaints about nades stop if nade autos were given ammo? What do people need before they see nades the same way as these other examples? 6 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted March 16, 2023 Share Posted March 16, 2023 yeah its all bad but nades is the most popular. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuma.1503 Posted March 16, 2023 Author Share Posted March 16, 2023 Hm... guess I'll just abuse it on Scepter ele then. Seems few people care enough to complain about it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheArtOfMouts.7468 Posted March 16, 2023 Share Posted March 16, 2023 (edited) 4 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said: I'm legitimately curious about this. Why does this only come up when talking about engi nades? Aparently it's toxic to kite while firing behind yourself while running with superspeed. Yet for some reason, this never comes up in regards to DrD dashing away, kiting behind them with Sb2. Ele superspeeding away on Fresh air builds, kiting behind themselves with Dragon's Tooth, Phoenix, Shatterstone, Dust Storm, Lightning Strike, and Blinding flash. (Short cooldowns on these btw) Renegade shortbow with both the 2 and 4 having 360 targeting. While they lack superspeed, they have Impossible odds and targeted ports. Is it only toxic if it's 360 degree targeting on an auto attack? Would complaints about nades stop if nade autos were given ammo? What do people need before they see nades the same way as these other examples? This is my most irritating behaviour in pvp. Remove About Face !!! Edited March 16, 2023 by TheArtOfMouts.7468 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kodama.6453 Posted March 16, 2023 Share Posted March 16, 2023 Just feels like people hate nades in general, tbh. You also constantly see people asking for damage nerfs on grenades, despite the kit bringing absolutely nothing else but damage to the table. If a weapon set is consisting of nothing but damage, it should actually deal quite alot of it.... and for most weapon sets, people agree on this. Just not nades, for reasons. 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotride.2187 Posted March 16, 2023 Share Posted March 16, 2023 (edited) Forum exploded about ele scepter and getting kited with superspeed and ranged nukes. So cant say there were no complaints about it. Renegade doesnt exist in spvp and even if it did it doesnt exactly kite. The SB skills are also very easy to see and avoid. Thief SB I dunno about. I've 1v1ed a lot of thieves, generally they have to choose whether they want to kite you or spam SB2... So you eat SB2 one or two times (which can still be a good amount of dmg) but the rest of their initiative is used to put some distance. And eventually the thief needs to swap to their melee weapon, since that is their dmg set. For kiting and ranged dmg p/p is just better. But I cant say engi kiting with superspeed and throwing grenades has been a big issue for me either. Its a bigger problem when the engi comes out of stealth with them or when a holo is near overheating and you fail to predict and dodge. The grenades are kinda hard to see, thats the only problem I've had with them. Once the engi starts kiting, bait it back... the grenade range is pitiful due to the spread. Edited March 16, 2023 by Hotride.2187 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shion.2084 Posted March 16, 2023 Share Posted March 16, 2023 7 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said: Forum exploded about ele scepter and getting kited with superspeed and ranged nukes. So cant say there were no complaints about it. Renegade doesnt exist in spvp and even if it did it doesnt exactly kite. The SB skills are also very easy to see and avoid. Thief SB I dunno about. I've 1v1ed a lot of thieves, generally they have to choose whether they want to kite you or spam SB2... So you eat SB2 one or two times (which can still be a good amount of dmg) but the rest of their initiative is used to put some distance. And eventually the thief needs to swap to their melee weapon, since that is their dmg set. For kiting and ranged dmg p/p is just better. But I cant say engi kiting with superspeed and throwing grenades has been a big issue for me either. Its a bigger problem when the engi comes out of stealth with them or when a holo is near overheating and you fail to predict and dodge. The grenades are kinda hard to see, thats the only problem I've had with them. Once the engi starts kiting, bait it back... the grenade range is pitiful due to the spread. Yeah I always wonder about that... people say... oh the engi can take the SB (equal skill level I can't). With this theory you can just blast them with nades.... but for my nades to hit with all of them to be effective I need to be close enough that the SB can definitely land its skills on me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArthurDent.9538 Posted March 16, 2023 Share Posted March 16, 2023 Its the combination of three things that make 360 degree targeting obnoxious: High amounts of it, front loaded damage, high mobility when using it. One or two skills no big deal it's just a bit of chip damage but the entire nade and mortar kit function this way so they never really have to stop pressuring while kiting, scepter ele auto attacks require facing but the entire rest of the kit doesn't which is a ton of free pressure. Front loaded meaning stuff like lava font and the afformentioned short renegade sb 4 don't have a facing requirement but only do significant amounts of damage against targets that don't simply walk out of the damage fields. Then mobility is the last piece of the puzzle, super speed is especially strong in this instance as even if melee builds have a gap closer to get close they will only have time for 1 attack which cam be easily dodged before the target is safely out of range and can basically free cast. In theory waiting till the target runs out of superspeed before engaging with gap closers can work but the raw uptime from scrapper and fresh air ele made this a non viable tactic, range builds would be the only reliable way to counter. Lacking one of those 3 factors makes 360 ranged damage more manageable but scrapper and scepter ele do have all 3. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted March 16, 2023 Share Posted March 16, 2023 11 hours ago, TheArtOfMouts.7468 said: This is my most irritating behaviour in pvp. Remove About Face !!! My guy said "remove turning around" I love it here 8 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said: Just feels like people hate nades in general, tbh. Its this. 15 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said: Yet for some reason, this never comes up in regards to DrD dashing away, kiting behind them with Sb2. Ironically, initiative constraints make this less spammable than nades and removes a chunk of their movement options. Quote Ele superspeeding away on Fresh air builds, kiting behind themselves with Dragon's Tooth, Phoenix, Shatterstone, Dust Storm, Lightning Strike, and Blinding flash. (Short cooldowns on these btw) People were mad at this too. Superspeed got axed. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted March 16, 2023 Share Posted March 16, 2023 8 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said: Once the engi starts kiting, bait it back... Nades are fine btw. If they're running away and hitting you with nades you're running after them. Dont do that. Follow just outside of the range if you're worried about ooc. They have limited stunbreak options, so you don't need to worry about them escaping on the nades alone at the cost of your hp. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted March 16, 2023 Share Posted March 16, 2023 Arthur Dent explained it all, but for those that want a TLDR: It's OK as long as it's not auto attacks or super low cool downs and too prevalent. It's also OK if it comes with a cast and tell, like shadowshot you can kinda see it travel past you and can go to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zyreva.1078 Posted March 16, 2023 Share Posted March 16, 2023 (edited) 9 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said: If a weapon set is consisting of nothing but damage, it should actually deal quite alot of it.... and for most weapon sets, people agree on this. Just not nades, for reasons. Kit's aren't like weapons tho in terms of getting "stuck" with only dmg skills, because you can swap in and out at will and still access different skill sets whenever needed. Also flash grenade is a defensive skill, chill (maybe even poison) also fall more into the category of utility, so "nothing but dmg" isn't even accurate in regards to grenade kit. Regarding firing behind while running - it's a big difference whether only a few skills can be cast behind, or if a player can nonstop bombard someone while running. So yes, players hate genades - because they are usually very obnoxious to play against (and so are scepter eles - for similar reasons). Edited March 16, 2023 by Zyreva.1078 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormemperor.3745 Posted March 16, 2023 Share Posted March 16, 2023 Nades faster, hit harder and 0 cd. What else do you want? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aymnad.9023 Posted March 16, 2023 Share Posted March 16, 2023 (edited) To me this is not an engineer specific issue. Anything that makes me feel punished for going on the offense on a build that can punish me for waiting on the defense has the same problem. I hate a lot of instant mechanics. I remember so many times I would die with no warning to fa weaver while they were the ones low and on the run during PoF. Mesmer shattering under a cc or a channel skill are also a lot of fun. I notice a lot more how professions are not equal when it comes to hit and run and how some skills can hit backwards without any restrictions. Sometimes it can feel fair (like most necro skills which have damage over time or a slow animation), sometimes it doesn’t. When it comes to 360 targeting grenades are really accessible (to the point of being spammable) compared to most skills, really fast, do good damage, work anytime (range and close combat) and are common on builds that have good performances so people see them more often. Edited March 16, 2023 by aymnad.9023 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazsi.2734 Posted March 16, 2023 Share Posted March 16, 2023 22 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said: I'm legitimately curious about this. Why does this only come up when talking about engi nades? Aparently it's toxic to kite while firing behind yourself while running with superspeed. Yet for some reason, this never comes up in regards to DrD dashing away, kiting behind them with Sb2. Ele superspeeding away on Fresh air builds, kiting behind themselves with Dragon's Tooth, Phoenix, Shatterstone, Dust Storm, Lightning Strike, and Blinding flash. (Short cooldowns on these btw) Renegade shortbow with both the 2 and 4 having 360 targeting. While they lack superspeed, they have Impossible odds and targeted ports. Is it only toxic if it's 360 degree targeting on an auto attack? Would complaints about nades stop if nade autos were given ammo? What do people need before they see nades the same way as these other examples? When running out of a burning building, the pain of a stubbed toe is kind of irrelevant. All of this is bad. Grenades are an order of magnitude worse though. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noneHotBuildTest.7251 Posted March 18, 2023 Share Posted March 18, 2023 On 3/17/2023 at 12:38 AM, stormemperor.3745 said: Nades faster, hit harder and 0 cd. What else do you want? I want Anet nerf it, and give other class love. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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