Any tips on how to deal with Virtuoso?

[Sovarica.4368]

I've been playing more this season and it's like every game I play has the same problem is that Virtuoso is way too difficult to deal with they do everything effectively with rezzing to 1v1 to excessive bunkering and having decent damage and it seems to carry most crappy teams. It's getting a bit tiring seeing how overtuned it is. So does it actually have a counter and any tips to fight against it?

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

The only weaknesses virt has are that it's slow and its damage is almost completely frustrated  by walls. This is a tired strategy that shouldnt be the go to for dealing with any spec, but you'd be more effective outnumbering somewhere else on the map instead of trying to push the virtuoso. 

Wish I could tell you why Anet seems to think making a mes spec perpetually invulnerable would be just what the game needs after trying the same thing with every other mes spec over the life of the game but 🤷‍♀️

Edited March 17, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Zex Anthon.8673]

Asking the real question. Virt is disgusting right now. It has like 90% invuln uptime with a short cooldown burst.

The only reason why it hasnt been dominating the meta is because catalyst is more effective at holding a point and can move accross the map in 2 seconds.

[Kuma.1503]

 Me play high APM specs. Must hit every button. Must do fancy combo finisher to feel like leet gamer. 

Virt literally counters me irl. I know I shouldn't hit the block, but man... that button is just. I WANTS me to press it. 

[Dr Meta.3158]

The typical play pattern of a good virtuoso is to ensure that at all times they either are blocking, invulnerable, have aegis, are invisible, or you have 18+ stacks of confusion at all times. Virtuoso does have bursts but they have the consistent damage of weapon skills inbetween those bursts. The idea is to force you to use up all of your defensive while they can endlessly cycle through all of theirs so that eventually you can't avoid the easy to dodge bursts. This is a similar play pattern to fighting spellbreakers. They way to win against both classes is to frustrate them more than they frustrate you. 

Against spellbreaker, kite them endlessly and whenever they stop chasing, poke them at range to get them to start again. Make them regret playing spellbreaker for easy wins.

Against virtuoso (and greatsword mesmer specs in general) find a large obstacle and constantly line of sight them. Whenever they give up harass them again and lead them back to a large obstacle to line of sight behind.

You have to fight toxic designs with toxic play. Its not ideal but as long as arenanet promotes toxicity in their game design, its an unfortunate evil you have to partake in to win. If you're lucky, the players will get so frustrated that they will stop cycling through defenses and go all in to try to kill you, that's your opportunity to finish them. And considering that they're the type of people attracted to such toxic playstles, it won't take long for them to lose composure.

You might see some dumb advice on the forum from low skilled players like try to walk through their shatters to get behind them. Don't do anything stupid like that. And toxic, irrelevant answers given like the guy above me, ignore them. They're one of the few people that enjoy toxic design. Apply what you learned here and make them regret their toxic preferences.

Good luck.

Edited March 17, 2023 by Dr Meta.3158

[apharma.3741]

4 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

The only weaknesses virt has are that it's slow and its damage is almost completely frustrated  by walls. This is a tired strategy that shouldnt be the go to for dealing with any spec, but you'd be more effective outnumbering somewhere else on the map instead of trying to push the virtuoso. 

Wish I could tell you why Anet seems to think making a mes spec perpetually invulnerable would be just what the game needs after trying the same thing with every other mes spec over the life of the game but 🤷‍♀️

Hey, real mesmer players are frustrated by that too but also that if it's stripped out mesmer as a whole is terrible.
I'm a little confused (so are others it seems) at how GS mesmer specs are keeping 18 confusion on people like the above post says given the only skill giving that much is duelling, illusions virtuoso but that's on mostly 1 skill and the other sources of blind/confusion just don't have the uptime.

As for the OP. When the mesmer is invulnerable decap the node, when they stealth LoS around the node till they come out. You can side step most of the F1 (fires the blades consecutively, move back and forth) and you can LoS or dodge the F2 quite reliably given it's cast and animation time. After that just normal stuff like have your camera zoomed out a bit so you can see torch phantasm appear behind you and hitting block is whatever, you're probably going to hit a block at some point and even if you don't they get blades from evades.
Treat it like you would fighting a spellbreaker but that it'll probably be decapped the entire time. Spellbreaker will probably win eventually, virtuoso you might win the node but most likely outcome is it's a neutral node. It's up to you to decide if keeping the node neutral is the most valuable use of your time and class though.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

Virtuoso has no cleanse at all, but has plenty of invuln uptime and relies on a very airtight defensive rotation to do their thing. Conclusion: the 27k HP saves them from power bursts, all of the invuln will deny any damage from condition buildup, but control conditions bypass both. Take as much cripple\immob\chilled as you can: if you manage to sneak some chilled you will mess up their gameplay enough for a roamer to actually get something done.

That being said, virtuoso is toxic design and should be removed; your best bet is to attack them as little as possible, to starve them of blades, and to keep their node decapped (distortion\stealth\invuln will allow you to do that). Don't go for a kill, it's useless, but you denied their node and that is good enough. If you are REALLY nettled and want to punish them for being a virtuoso (understandable) bring chilled, chilled, chilled and even more chilled; from there, any roamer will be a serious threat to them. You all forgot how much chilled will mess up a mesmer, but trust me it's unreal how effective it is.

Edited March 17, 2023 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Dr Meta.3158]

55 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

I'm a little confused (so are others it seems) at how GS mesmer specs are keeping 18 confusion on people like the above post says given the only skill giving that much is duelling, illusions virtuoso but that's on mostly 1 skill and the other sources of blind/confusion just don't have the uptime.

Sorry, I'm used to dealing with scientists and engineers and forgot to adjust. I am sorry let me adapt to my audience. 

You can use obstacles to break line of sight, that is the imaginary line between you and the opponent, to avoid attacks from virtuosos and mesmers classes, those characters that usually make clones of themselves that explode into pink butterflies, that use the greatsword weapon by positioning yourself between the obstacle and the mesmer such that the obstacle is in the way of their attacks. That way they can not hit you and must chase you around the obstacle. This tactic is called line-of-sighting. 

Here is a video in case you need supplemental instruction:

Here is an article with descriptive pictures:

https://www.campbellsci.co.za/blog/line-of-sight-more-than-meets-eye

 

[Gibson.4036]

4 hours ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

The typical play pattern of a good virtuoso is to ensure that at all times they either are blocking, invulnerable, have aegis, are invisible, or you have 18+ stacks of confusion at all times. Virtuoso does have bursts but they have the consistent damage of weapon skills inbetween those bursts. The idea is to force you to use up all of your defensive while they can endlessly cycle through all of theirs so that eventually you can't avoid the easy to dodge bursts. This is a similar play pattern to fighting spellbreakers. They way to win against both classes is to frustrate them more than they frustrate you. 

Against spellbreaker, kite them endlessly and whenever they stop chasing, poke them at range to get them to start again. Make them regret playing spellbreaker for easy wins.

Against virtuoso (and greatsword mesmer specs in general) find a large obstacle and constantly line of sight them. Whenever they give up harass them again and lead them back to a large obstacle to line of sight behind.

You have to fight toxic designs with toxic play. Its not ideal but as long as arenanet promotes toxicity in their game design, its an unfortunate evil you have to partake in to win. If you're lucky, the players will get so frustrated that they will stop cycling through defenses and go all in to try to kill you, that's your opportunity to finish them. And considering that they're the type of people attracted to such toxic playstles, it won't take long for them to lose composure.

You might see some dumb advice on the forum from low skilled players like try to walk through their shatters to get behind them. Don't do anything stupid like that. And toxic, irrelevant answers given like the guy above me, ignore them. They're one of the few people that enjoy toxic design. Apply what you learned here and make them regret their toxic preferences.

Good luck.

Kiting and using LoS are toxic play?

[Dr Meta.3158]

5 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Kiting and using LoS are toxic play?

Hey it shocked me too, but from the comments I've gotten from losing virtuosos and spellbreakers, its borderline cheating.

[lotus.5672]

2 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Virtuoso has no cleanse at all, but has plenty of invuln uptime and relies on a very airtight defensive rotation to do their thing. Conclusion: the 27k HP saves them from power bursts, all of the invuln will deny any damage from condition buildup, but control conditions bypass both. Take as much cripple\immob\chilled as you can: if you manage to sneak some chilled you will mess up their gameplay enough for a roamer to actually get something done.

That being said, virtuoso is toxic design and should be removed; your best bet is to attack them as little as possible, to starve them of blades, and to keep their node decapped (distortion\stealth\invuln will allow you to do that). Don't go for a kill, it's useless, but you denied their node and that is good enough. If you are REALLY nettled and want to punish them for being a virtuoso (understandable) bring chilled, chilled, chilled and even more chilled; from there, any roamer will be a serious threat to them. You all forgot how much chilled will mess up a mesmer, but trust me it's unreal how effective it is.

Signet of midnight clears 5 condis, if the mes doesnt run inspiration then he doesnt have high invul uptime.

Idk why I have to point that out to a so called mesmer main, maybe stop being disingenuous?

Also condi virts run that chaos trait that converts condis when you get cc'd

Edited March 17, 2023 by lotus.5672

[lotus.5672]

2 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Virtuoso has no cleanse at all, but has plenty of invuln uptime and relies on a very airtight defensive rotation to do their thing. Conclusion: the 27k HP saves them from power bursts, all of the invuln will deny any damage from condition buildup, but control conditions bypass both. Take as much cripple\immob\chilled as you can: if you manage to sneak some chilled you will mess up their gameplay enough for a roamer to actually get something done.

That being said, virtuoso is toxic design and should be removed; your best bet is to attack them as little as possible, to starve them of blades, and to keep their node decapped (distortion\stealth\invuln will allow you to do that). Don't go for a kill, it's useless, but you denied their node and that is good enough. If you are REALLY nettled and want to punish them for being a virtuoso (understandable) bring chilled, chilled, chilled and even more chilled; from there, any roamer will be a serious threat to them. You all forgot how much chilled will mess up a mesmer, but trust me it's unreal how effective it is.

Signet of midnight clears 5 condis, if the mes doesnt run inspiration then he doesnt have high invul uptime.

Idk why I have to point that out to a so called mesmer main, maybe stop being disingenuous?

Also condi virts run that chaos trait that converts condis when you get cc'd

Edited March 17, 2023 by lotus.5672

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

2 hours ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

Hey it shocked me too, but from the comments I've gotten from losing virtuosos and spellbreakers, its borderline cheating.

 

People will roleplay as walls with their builds then be upset when you don't interact with them, its wild

Edited March 17, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[semak.7481]

14 minutes ago, lotus.5672 said:

Signet of midnight clears 5 condis, if the mes doesnt run inspiration then he doesnt have high invul uptime.

Idk why I have to point that out to a so called mesmer main, maybe stop being disingenuous?

Also condi virts run that chaos trait that converts condis when you get cc'd

So you lose/die to full bunker virtuoso that would decap itself in no time and have 0 offensive traitlines? That's an achievement on its own.

Not OP or anyone else which kind of virtuoso farms them, classic 6 traitline virtuoso?

Edited March 17, 2023 by semak.7481

[Terrorhuz.4695]

3 hours ago, lotus.5672 said:

Signet of midnight clears 5 condis, if the mes doesnt run inspiration then he doesnt have high invul uptime.

Virtuoso doesn't run inspiration (so: no cleanse) and Auspicious Anguish won't convert chilled because it's limited to damaging conditions. Now in the corner of shame you go.

Edited March 17, 2023 by Terrorhuz.4695

[shion.2084]

5 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Virtuoso usually doesn't run inspiration, so there's no signet of midnight with cleanse; inspi is a survivability traitline, after all, and the class is nearly immortal already. Also, you might want to check the traits twice before posting,  the chaos trait you're talking is Auspicious Anguish and it converts only damaging conditions 🙂 chilled should work. 

What happens to that damaging condition rule when chills are traited to damage?  I presume its still treated as non damaging.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

4 minutes ago, shion.2084 said:

What happens to that damaging condition rule when chills are traited to damage?  I presume its still treated as non damaging.

Trait lists the conditions it converts: torment, burning, bleeding, confusion, poison. Anything else dealing damage (traited fear, traited chill), it's there to stay.

Edited March 17, 2023 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

7 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

 traited chill

 

Traited chill is bleeding, but post is right.

Don't mind me I'm just wistfully hoping Deathly Chill comes back, or gets replaced by something worthy of a GM instead of...yknow a single bleed stack

[Terrorhuz.4695]

3 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

Traited chill is bleeding, but post is right.

Don't mind me I'm just wistfully hoping Deathly Chill comes back, or gets replaced by something worthy of a GM instead of...yknow a single bleed stack

My knowledge of the game crumbles as a castle of cards the moment I stop talking about mesmer.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

2 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

My knowledge of the game crumbles as a castle of cards the moment I stop talking about mesmer.

 

Fair, it do be like that

[Eddie.9143]

Virtuoso weakness is condis and heavy burst without auto attacks. Autos just give them blades and bladesongs which lead to more blocks and more healing and damage. 

 

To beat a virtuoso you need to be patient and wait out the obvious visual defensives, then burst. Them dodging auto attacks will also give them more damage and healing 

[Shao.7236]

Unblockables. Don't try to setup big bursts, you'll likely waste your initial hit on Aegis, they have enough sustain to quite literally make you waste all of your damage since chewing at their ankle is better strategy until you know there's less that could prevent your damage.

@Dr Meta.3158 The irony of them putting distance away from you is not cheating but forcing them to come to you is.

Edited March 17, 2023 by Shao.7236

[Dr Meta.3158]

1 hour ago, Shao.7236 said:

Unblockables. Don't try to setup big bursts, you'll likely waste your initial hit on Aegis, they have enough sustain to quite literally make you waste all of your damage since chewing at their ankle is better strategy until you know there's less that could prevent your damage.

@Dr Meta.3158 The irony of them putting distance away from you is not cheating but forcing them to come to you is.

If they can't easily kill you while being untouchable in return, you're a cheater. 😅

7 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

People will roleplay as walls with their builds then be upset when you don't interact with them, its wild

Edited March 17, 2023 by Dr Meta.3158

[apharma.3741]

21 hours ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

Sorry, I'm used to dealing with scientists and engineers and forgot to adjust. I am sorry let me adapt to my audience. 

You can use obstacles to break line of sight, that is the imaginary line between you and the opponent, to avoid attacks from virtuosos and mesmers classes, those characters that usually make clones of themselves that explode into pink butterflies, that use the greatsword weapon by positioning yourself between the obstacle and the mesmer such that the obstacle is in the way of their attacks. That way they can not hit you and must chase you around the obstacle. This tactic is called line-of-sighting. 

Here is a video in case you need supplemental instruction:

Here is an article with descriptive pictures:

https://www.campbellsci.co.za/blog/line-of-sight-more-than-meets-eye

 

I'm also more used to dealing with medical doctors, software engineers and people of higher education, and your reply is undoubtedly not in any of those categories. I pointed out that your statement of "or you have 18+ stacks of confusion at all times." was factually incorrect and certainly not possible on a GS mesmer. Some of that might be down to your wording, but you cannot maintain 18 stacks of confusion on someone at all times due to its short duration (even with + confusion duration) and limited application even using duelling and illusions.
I don't even know why you're trying to tell me I don't know about LoS, it's not in the part you quoted, only in the part you didn't quote where I state it's a way to deal with F2.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

@lotus.5672 come here and explain to me how you cleanse chilled with Auspicious Anguish, I am waiting