What do ArenaNet's recruitment targets mean for the directions of the studio?

[TheQuickFox.3826]

ArenaNet current job openings:

https://boards.greenhouse.io/arenanet

 

Speculations from here:

 

It looks like ANet is looking for Unreal Engine 4/5 developers for an unannounced project. In the past, ArenaNet was looking for new devs with experience with major console systems. But this was before NCSOFT intervened at ArenaNet, cancelled unannounced projects and fired many people from the studio.

 

So it seems that they have unannounced projects again. This could explain the slower development pace of GW2 the last year. I'm interested if these are GW2 related and what their current recruitment goals mean for Guild Wars 2.

 

Some possibilities:

• ArenaNet may be looking to port GW2 to Unreal Engine 4/5.
• ArenaNet may be planning work on Guild Wars 3 in Unreal Engine 4/5.
• ArenaNet may be planning on a new, non-Guild Wars title in Unreal Engine 4/5.

 

A port of GW2 to UE is unlikely to me because it will be a monumental task to implement all current game mechanics into UE without breaking everything.

Edited March 18, 2023 by TheQuickFox.3826

[Arianth Moonlight.6453]

28 minutes ago, TheQuickFox.3826 said:

ArenaNet may be planning on a new, non-Guild Wars title in Unreal Engine 4/5.

probably some mobile game.

[SinisterSlay.6973]

It'll be a mobile game.  No reason to use Unreal otherwise.  The engine GW2 uses is already superior as far as an MMO goes.

 

And keep in mind, mobile games have become almost exclusively MMOs.  So it makes sense for an MMO company to want to get in on the booming MMO market that is mobile games.

Edited March 18, 2023 by SinisterSlay.6973

[TTRM.7901]

Hmm. If they are porting I'm ok with that, but I don't want Guild Wars 3 honestly, not anytime soon. I want them to expand and tell more stories and give us more content in Guild Wars 2 😋

[Arianth Moonlight.6453]

4 hours ago, TTRM.7901 said:

I don't want Guild Wars 3 honestly

 Guild Wars Prophecies for mobile confirmed 😃

[Danikat.8537]

They've been hiring people for an unannounced project for quite a while now (I think over a year, but I'm not certain), the roles change but there's always a few up at a time. Since they're hiring new people to work on it I don't think it will have much impact on GW2 because their existing staff can keep doing their current jobs.

Also I think it's actually more normal for a games studio to have multiple games and even to work on a few at a time rather than just making 1.

I don't think there's any way to know what it is, except that I think if it was porting GW2 to a new engine they wouldn't call it an unannounced project. One thing that stands out to me however is that the jobs which aren't specifically for the unannounced project either directly reference GW2 or indirectly by talking about things like experience with MMOs or live-service multiplayer games. Whereas the unannounced project ones talk about experience with AAA games and Unreal Engine 4/5 and don't mention MMOs. Incidentally I also found some (like the Principal Technical Artist job) which specify experience with AAA PC and console games, and none which mention mobile games.

So my guess is it's something completely new and possibly not an MMO/multiplayer game. But there's no way to know for sure until it's announced.

[LSD.4673]

7 hours ago, SinisterSlay.6973 said:

The engine GW2 uses is already superior as far as an MMO goes.

The engine from early 2000s GW1. The one devs can't update anything without breaking something else. The one that devs don't even touch any older stuff, laden with bugs and issues, for fear of the aforementioned. The one that devs have enormous difficulty implementing even simple QoL changes to.

Really, really not a good MMO engine. 

[Linken.6345]

2 hours ago, LSD.4673 said:

The engine from early 2000s GW1. The one devs can't update anything without breaking something else. The one that devs don't even touch any older stuff, laden with bugs and issues, for fear of the aforementioned. The one that devs have enormous difficulty implementing even simple QoL changes to.

Really, really not a good MMO engine. 

I mean they messed up atleast two living story episodes ( gravity in one and aurene tansform in another) releasing the last eod map so yea.

 

[Luijtjuh.5964]

There's no way they're porting GW2 to Unreal 5, it's simply too much effort with too little gain. To be honest, Unreal doesn't lend itself very well to MMO's out of the box. I say that as a professional UE5 game programmer myself.

Given the fact they're looking for animation and narrative programmers, I believe you can rule out any GW3 development, as those roles would only be brought in a lot later in the project.

That leaves a new IP, or some mobile spin-off as most likely scenario.

Edited March 18, 2023 by Luijtjuh.5964

[SinisterSlay.6973]

11 hours ago, LSD.4673 said:

The engine from early 2000s GW1. The one devs can't update anything without breaking something else. The one that devs don't even touch any older stuff, laden with bugs and issues, for fear of the aforementioned. The one that devs have enormous difficulty implementing even simple QoL changes to.

Really, really not a good MMO engine. 

Which rootkit anti cheat does GW2 require to prevent cheating?

Because Unreal 5 requires ones as the engine is a first person shooter engine, not an MMO engine.  And yes it can bend that way, but it can never be made to never trust the client.

[Danikat.8537]

22 hours ago, LSD.4673 said:

The engine from early 2000s GW1. The one devs can't update anything without breaking something else. The one that devs don't even touch any older stuff, laden with bugs and issues, for fear of the aforementioned. The one that devs have enormous difficulty implementing even simple QoL changes to.

Really, really not a good MMO engine. 

I don't know if other MMOs are like this but Elder Scrolls Online has the same problems and they're using a custom modified version of the Hero Engine (developed specifically for online games) developed in about 2008.

[Bast.7253]

I'm guessing EoD sales were strong enough to convince NCSoft to go back to working on the unannounced projects. I'd wager they spent quite a bit of resources into them initially before the layoffs and didn't want a heap of technical debt sitting around, unused assets etc. 

They're prioritizing those projects right now and using Guild Wars 2 to fund them, thus the new model while they're low on staff and resources. The real question is the timeline/release projection of the unannounced projects. Is this new model meant to tide Guild Wars 2 community over while they finish development on the others and then reshuffle again or are they sticking to this model and shifting total support to the new projects?

I think they've just been burned by decisions from higher ups to the point it's probably difficult to support Guild Wars 2 now and most of the people that were working on it have lost valuable talent/friends/colleagues and just aren't as passionate about this project anymore.  I mean we still have Ruby, Bobby, Cal, and a few others that I think genuinely are excited and passionate about Guild Wars 2 because of how long they've been working on it and with the studio but I'm also just naming people that actively engage with the community whether it's their choice or mandated I have no clue. 

Bottom line is, if you were disappointed with the latest release I wouldn't expect anything beyond that for the next few, at least the quarterly updates. They'll likely go through a few different iterations until they find something that receives good feedback and stick with it for the "blueprint" of what releases need to look like in this new model. So if anything, I'd expect more of what we've had since EoD. I also would rule out elite specializations as the expansions will be smaller than EoD and likely not have the scope to tackle major game-changing combat features like new specializations. At least for the next mini-expac or 2, however long it takes them to gather the metrics they need to see if this is sustainable or until some new project gets shipped and takes the spotlight.

[Astralporing.1957]

To me it looks like the return to the times before layoffs, when Anet started shuttling off devs to other projects and GW2 suffered as a result. Except it seems the resources they have left for GW2 nowadays are even lower than then, which, frankly, looks very bad.

[mythical.6315]

15 hours ago, SinisterSlay.6973 said:

Because Unreal 5 requires ones as the engine is a first person shooter engine, not an MMO engine

Source?

Here are several games being developed (rumored or announced) using that engine which expand across all genres including MMOs. 
https://gamerant.com/all-confirmed-unreal-engine-5-games/

No where on the engine developers website do they state that it is a first person shooter engine. 
https://www.unrealengine.com/en-US/unreal-engine-5

Did you make that up?

Edited March 19, 2023 by mythical.6315

[SinisterSlay.6973]

18 minutes ago, mythical.6315 said:

Source?

Here are several games being developed (rumored or announced) using that engine which expand across all genres including MMOs. 
https://gamerant.com/all-confirmed-unreal-engine-5-games/

You need a source?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unreal_Engine#:~:text=The first-generation Unreal Engine,person shooter known as Unreal.

I admit it hurts to say this, because the game Unreal, the game that was made with the Unreal engine, it's namesake, is a first person shooter.

Now we are of course up to unreal 5.  And the engine has grown.  But even today it is still not designed with a non client trusting system

I don't find a lot of examples of unreal 5 MMO style multiplier.  Only basic multiplayer where you can specify an actor is replicated to all clients https://docs.unrealengine.com/5.0/en-US/multiplayer-programming-quick-start-for-unreal-engine/, which means again it is trusting the inputs of one client and transmitting to others.  But there is a lot of examples of unreal 4.  And again, the fact that Guild Wars 2 does not require gameguard, xsign3, vanguard, or any other rootkit to detect cheating shows how strong of an engine GW2 is in regards to being an MMO.

It's graphics pipeline is obviously flawed, but their network pipeline is top notch.

Edited March 19, 2023 by SinisterSlay.6973

[mythical.6315]

1 hour ago, SinisterSlay.6973 said:

You need a source?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unreal_Engine#:~:text=The first-generation Unreal Engine,person shooter known as Unreal.

I admit it hurts to say this, because the game Unreal, the game that was made with the Unreal engine, it's namesake, is a first person shooter.

Now we are of course up to unreal 5.  And the engine has grown.  But even today it is still not designed with a non client trusting system

I don't find a lot of examples of unreal 5 MMO style multiplier.  Only basic multiplayer where you can specify an actor is replicated to all clients https://docs.unrealengine.com/5.0/en-US/multiplayer-programming-quick-start-for-unreal-engine/, which means again it is trusting the inputs of one client and transmitting to others.  But there is a lot of examples of unreal 4.  And again, the fact that Guild Wars 2 does not require gameguard, xsign3, vanguard, or any other rootkit to detect cheating shows how strong of an engine GW2 is in regards to being an MMO.

It's graphics pipeline is obviously flawed, but their network pipeline is top notch.

Unless you have anything from the developer that states that it is a first person shooter engine, rather than anecdotal info about the first generation of it being developed for their first person shooter almost 30 years ago, then you really haven't proven anything. 

GW2 not requiring "gameguard, xsign3, vanguard, or any other rootkit to detect cheating" does not show how strong the engine is.  This is fairly evident by players who can automate gameplay to flat out hacking.  They only get in trouble if players report them and if ArenaNet cares enough to act on those reports.

Edited March 19, 2023 by mythical.6315

[SinisterSlay.6973]

32 minutes ago, mythical.6315 said:

Unless you have anything from the developer that states that it is a first person shooter engine, rather than anecdotal info about the first generation of it being developed for their first person shooter almost 30 years ago, then you really haven't proven anything. 

GW2 not requiring "gameguard, xsign3, vanguard, or any other rootkit to detect cheating" does not show how strong the engine is.  This is fairly evident by players who can automate gameplay to flat out hacking.  They only get in trouble if players report them and if ArenaNet cares enough to act on those reports.

Automating your keyboard and mouse is not actually preventable by any software.

If you don't want to read the sources I gave you then fine.  Prove me wrong, code your own MMO in Unreal 5.

Edited March 19, 2023 by SinisterSlay.6973

[mythical.6315]

3 hours ago, SinisterSlay.6973 said:

Automating your keyboard and mouse is not actually preventable by any software.

If you don't want to read the sources I gave you then fine.  Prove me wrong, code your own MMO in Unreal 5.

Did you not notice the part where I said "automate gameplay to flat out hacking" with the bolded part being what you conveniently ignored? 

I read your sources and none of them backing up your assertion that the unreal 5 engine is for first person shooters.  You first made the claim so it's on you to back it up which you have yet to do.

What about the rest of my post where I countered your assertion about GW2 not requiring gameguard, xsign3, vanguard, or any other rootkit to detect cheating somehow shows how strong the engine is? 

Oh look.  An MMO that is using UE4.  https://www.bladeandsoul.com/en-us/game/unreal-engine-4-update

And another which is Bless Online.  https://steamcommunity.com/app/681660/discussions/0/1734336452581660881/?l=latam

Lost Ark https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Ark_(video_game)#Development

Other games also include Mortal Kombat 11, Sea of Thieves, Shrek 2, Tetris Effect, Tony Hawk Pro Skater 5, Zumba Fitness, Nascar 21, Goat Simulator, Kingdom Hearts 3, Hoqwarts Legacy, and so on.  Clearly those are all first person shooter games... /s

Edited March 19, 2023 by mythical.6315

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

16 hours ago, Danikat.8537 said:

I don't know if other MMOs are like this but Elder Scrolls Online has the same problems and they're using a custom modified version of the Hero Engine (developed specifically for online games) developed in about 2008.

City of Heroes was like this, too.  The underlying code for most MMOs are made with the help of contract coders who leave after the job is done.  Figuratively speaking all of the pieces get glued together hastily before launch, and all the vets of the company have a mile-high overview of everything that happened.  

[Astralporing.1957]

18 hours ago, SinisterSlay.6973 said:

And again, the fact that Guild Wars 2 does not require gameguard, xsign3, vanguard, or any other rootkit to detect cheating shows how strong of an engine GW2 is in regards to being an MMO.

It's graphics pipeline is obviously flawed, but their network pipeline is top notch.

Have you ever heard about speedhacks, flying hacks and teleport hacks (as well as invulnerability and/or invisibility hacks, and many others)? It's not as secure as you think.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

8 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Have you ever heard about speedhacks, flying hacks and teleport hacks (as well as invulnerability and/or invisibility hacks, and many others)? It's not as secure as you think.

At launch the game had its own anti-cheat system which was very effective, but they had to remove it because of false positives. It was determined that losing players to false bans was very harmful to the game's reputation, compared to just letting exploiters doing what they want which affected only 0.01% of the population.

 

It was easy enough to report what few you saw to a GM at the time (the game had alot of GMs back then).

 

They had a similar issue in WvW; the game launched with server-side culling, so your client couldn't physically see players behind objects, and so on, which not only great improved client performance and allowed for advanced tactics in XvX, but also made wallhacks and such impossible, but it was so buggy that for example, entire zergs would disappear and never reappear around Stonemist Castle and they had to disable it.

 

ArenaNet determined at the end of the day players being able to play the game was more important. Anti-cheat systems are basically a form of DRM and impact legit users too harshly.

Edited March 20, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[Astralporing.1957]

2 hours ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

At launch the game had its own anti-cheat system which was very effective, but they had to remove it because of false positives. It was determined that losing players to false bans was very harmful to the game's reputation, compared to just letting exploiters doing what they want which affected only 0.01% of the population.

That detection system was tied to the movement issues only (didn't work for invuln and invis hacks, for example), didn't detect like half of the cases, and resulted in a really high amount of false positives. I would not call that "effective".

Also, i see no reason why that system would not work exactly well (or rather equally badly) for UE5. In all those cases it's about stuff that is being done clientside with results sent to server, so i see no difference here.

Edited March 20, 2023 by Astralporing.1957

[Bloodstealer.5978]

Was I dreaming it or was there a media drop just a few days back about a new PC/Mob game coming out from the studio using the Unreal Engine.. if so wouldn't that explain the need to recruit going forward.. plus I would be much more liken to the idea of them recruiting more than less and not need to have to shuffle large amounts of resources around internally unlike previously.

GW2 is an ageing product, still very much alive and fun imo, but its ageing all the same and the business needs new revenue streams to move forward  - so I like to think this is a positive sign they have other interests that need to be pursued - whether they become successful or even see the light of day is another thing entirely of course, but ya have to be in it to win it as they say.

[Gibson.4036]

3 minutes ago, Bloodstealer.5978 said:

Was I dreaming it or was there a media drop just a few days back about a new PC/Mob game coming out from the studio using the Unreal Engine.. if so wouldn't that explain the need to recruit going forward.. plus I would be much more liken to the idea of them recruiting more than less and not need to have to shuffle large amounts of resources around internally unlike previously.

GW2 is an ageing product, still very much alive and fun imo, but its ageing all the same and the business needs new revenue streams to move forward  - so I like to think this is a positive sign they have other interests that need to be pursued - whether they become successful or even see the light of day is another thing entirely of course, but ya have to be in it to win it as they say.

It’s certainly healthier for the studio to have more than one product.

For GW2 fans… it remains to be seen. If the other product becomes successful enough to cushion GW2s ups and downs, good for us. If it becomes successful enough that GW2 is abandoned as underperforming, not good.

At this point, for me it’s not even starting over in a new mmo that is scary, it’s that I can’t find another mmo that’s as remotely enjoyable. And it doesn’t feel like ArenaNet would want to or be capable of making a true GW3 should they decide to sunset GW2.

[kharmin.7683]

16 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

At this point, for me it’s not even starting over in a new mmo that is scary, it’s that I can’t find another mmo that’s as remotely enjoyable.

Agreed.  It's sometimes strange to me that I often find myself with much in common with you based on your posts.  🙂