[WvW] - Another balance complaint about Harbinger in small-scale content.

[SleepyBat.9034]

I'm wondering. How long will anet wait until they nerf Harbinger? After everyone quits? Nobody wants to fight a build so abusively overpowered as the Curses/Death Magic/Harbinger build that so easily wins against every other build in the game. This build has a near-perfect defense against all power damage thanks to the high Weakness application, permanent Protection, and +600 Toughness from Death Magic, and the condition cleanses from Shrowded Removal and Spectral Walk when paired with Superior Rune of Anti-Toxin are off the charts. And that's just the defensive part of the build! The number of conditions harbingers apply is simply overkill. Especially considering they have access to permanent quickness allowing them to spam their skills at such a rate that you cannot get any skills off before being overloaded with conditions. This build is so broken that I'm getting farmed by brand-new WvW players while running some of the strongest builds other classes have and to be honest it's sapping the fun out of WvW and makes me want to quit (cept I won't because I enjoy the combat system too much so I'ma write a forum post instead).

Edit: I should probably mention that in addition to all that Harbinger also has the choice to trait into -30% incoming condition damage (it stacks with Resolution btw).

Edited March 20, 2023 by SleepyBat.9034

[Sonork.2916]

I made a cele Harb for WvW roaming to see how easy it actually was, and lol, it's pretty stupid.  The amount of CC you get, (shroud 5 on a 20 second cooldown lol) and the amount of sustain you have, (11k+ heal skill on a 20 second cooldown lol) as well as the ease of killing any other class by simply auto attacking in shroud is hilarious.  And it easily works with so many trait lines a necro can take!  You can swap some surv for even more damage or corrupts.  I wish more classes had trait lines like necro, where they all just work with whatever you wanna do.  

[asterix.9614]

I need to burst a harbinger within 5 sec or I die lol, I play sb. Either that or I go in a stalemate (harbinger has more burst and pressure) when playing druid. 

Insane how much protection, quickness, toughness along with deathly carapace and access to all boons and all conditions harbinger has. The stun, wurm port and the mobility ain't half bad either. 

It is a broken build, however unlike the wvw deadeye you can just avoid fighting it xD

So, saying that, I think harbinger should stay as is, fix deadeye stealth though.

 

Edited March 19, 2023 by asterix.9614

[SleepyBat.9034]

11 minutes ago, asterix.9614 said:

So, saying that, I think harbinger should stay as is, fix de stealth though.

You might not have any issues fighting Harbingers with a glass cannon ranged build that can burst targets at 1500+ range but literally everyone else gets farmed. If Deadeye is actually as broken as you think then perhaps it needs to be put on the chopping block too, but this post is about Harbinger.

Edited March 19, 2023 by SleepyBat.9034

[SleepyBat.9034]

15 minutes ago, Sonork.2916 said:

I wish more classes had trait lines like necro, where they all just work with whatever you wanna do.

Ah yes, the goal of class design.

[asterix.9614]

33 minutes ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

You might not have any issues fighting Harbingers with a glass cannon ranged build that can burst targets at 1500+ range but literally everyone else gets farmed. If Deadeye is actually as broken as you think then perhaps it needs to be put on the chopping block too, but this post is about Harbinger.

True, true, I can't imagine what a class that relies on close range to melee damage have to put up with when fighting a harbinger. Boon abuser elite spec.

[Xenesis.6389]

On a scale of wet fart to dry fart I'd say willbenders are a wet fart and more of a problem than dry fart harbingers these days. Either way these specs stink up roaming more than usual. 💦💨🌧️🤮

[SleepyBat.9034]

8 minutes ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

On a scale of wet fart to dry fart I'd say willbenders are a wet fart and more of a problem than dry fart harbingers these days. Either way these specs stink up roaming more than usual. 💦💨🌧️🤮

Honestly, I think anet needs to take the top 5 or so builds and squish them down a bit. And actually, I find Willbenders to be less threatening than Harbingers in general.

Edited March 19, 2023 by SleepyBat.9034

[Mikhael.2391]

Willbender, catalyst, thief DE and DD and Specter, new mesmer eod, perma immobilized ranger, mechanist that doe snot die with perma 25stacks of might and superspeed. Nerf all of these and then you can nerf harbinger(wich I AGREE) otherwise, ONCE AGAIN, necros are left without one single roaming /smallscale spec that does not need babysittting. 

 

[SleepyBat.9034]

41 minutes ago, Mikhael.2391 said:

Willbender, catalyst, thief DE and DD and Specter, new mesmer eod, perma immobilized ranger, mechanist that doe snot die with perma 25stacks of might and superspeed. Nerf all of these and then you can nerf harbinger(wich I AGREE) otherwise, ONCE AGAIN, necros are left without one single roaming /smallscale spec that does not need babysittting.

I agree that there are other specs that need some balance(with the exception of Mechanist which hardly deserves more nerfs) however I want anet to start balancing from the top down until the worst offenders are dealt with and Harbinger currently is at the top. Also,  I didn't say delete Harbinger, I said nerf it. I actually enjoy playing Harbinger and would rather not see it gone however it's not fun when you know you're winning because of terrible balance.

Edited March 19, 2023 by SleepyBat.9034

[andrewlcl.8176]

4 hours ago, Mikhael.2391 said:

Willbender, catalyst, thief DE and DD and Specter, new mesmer eod, perma immobilized ranger, mechanist that doe snot die with perma 25stacks of might and superspeed. Nerf all of these and then you can nerf harbinger(wich I AGREE) otherwise, ONCE AGAIN, necros are left without one single roaming /smallscale spec that does not need babysittting. 

 

It's laughable that DE is even on that list, because all the other listed classes/builds (including sic 'em railgun instakill soulbeast, which was not mentioned) trivialise a DE encounter. 

 

Only the harb would have issues with a DE, and only in an open field without any means to LOS. If you have the latter, just hide behind a pillar (for example) and wait for friends to come. The DE will either run (which is most of them), or you're in trouble with the one in a thousand l33t DEs that will still kill everyone, and I only know one fella who can do that. 

 

Cele harb does an easy 3 V 1, I've seen it multiple times. The only thing doing the babysitting is its mini. 

 

Anet has put up some terrible power creep with the last load of elites, leading to woefully overtuned builds. WB and Catalyst are the biggest offenders. Anyway, it sells more copies of the expansion I guess, so Anet did a great job out of that. 

[Hotride.2187]

Hey look, a cele thread in disguise.

[Mikhael.2391]

4 hours ago, andrewlcl.8176 said:

It's laughable that DE is even on that list, because all the other listed classes/builds (including sic 'em railgun instakill soulbeast, which was not mentioned) trivialise a DE encounter. 

 

Only the harb would have issues with a DE, and only in an open field without any means to LOS. If you have the latter, just hide behind a pillar (for example) and wait for friends to come. The DE will either run (which is most of them), or you're in trouble with the one in a thousand l33t DEs that will still kill everyone, and I only know one fella who can do that. 

 

Cele harb does an easy 3 V 1, I've seen it multiple times. The only thing doing the babysitting is its mini. 

 

Anet has put up some terrible power creep with the last load of elites, leading to woefully overtuned builds. WB and Catalyst are the biggest offenders. Anyway, it sells more copies of the expansion I guess, so Anet did a great job out of that. 

DE is worst than harb against all others classes spec that do not have  sick um due to its infinite ports. I hav eseveral on my server that can easy fight off 3+ and if of those classes comes along that can chase them out of stealth they will just port away with elite etc and re engae at will. and they can kill for ex a reaper or necro or any other classes that does not play meta while in the midle of them. should be easily fixed witha huge nerf to stealth. reveal its a poor solution to this poop game stealth.

[andrewlcl.8176]

33 minutes ago, Mikhael.2391 said:

DE is worst than harb against all others classes spec that do not have  sick um due to its infinite ports. I hav eseveral on my server that can easy fight off 3+ and if of those classes comes along that can chase them out of stealth they will just port away with elite etc and re engae at will. and they can kill for ex a reaper or necro or any other classes that does not play meta while in the midle of them. should be easily fixed witha huge nerf to stealth. reveal its a poor solution to this poop game stealth.

What exactly is the DE doing to get infinite ports? They just don't have that. If we are talking about rifle 5 (kneel) - - > rifle 4 and rifle 4 again (within the confines of the field only), then we have Anet and ourselves to thank for that. We asked for permastealth DE to be changed, and Anet got creative, giving us SA changes and Death's Advance. 

 

Still, all the old DEs mourned for months that their build was totally gutted and useless now. 

 

I'd wager very few DE can even use these skills well, and they are clunky to use in real world scenarios. Those that can use it are still susceptible to a myriad of enemy reveal skills, plus revealed from their own attacks, and temporarily reduced mobility while using skills in kneel and in small confines. 

 

If we are talking about a DE single handedly fighting off 3+, then we need to look at the circumstances. A competent or pro DE against 3+ melee-only build noobs with no gap closers or projectile denial is a win to the DE, because it should, no pun intended, run circles around those guys. 

 

The sheer difference in skill level and the weaknesses of the builds play to the DE's advantage. Even a Spellbreaker or Dragonhunter can make things very difficult for DE, with either build on its own being able to win, if played competently. 

 

We know that DE elite has seen a heavy nerf, it is not as great a threat as it once was as it no longer removes revealed. 

 

Reaper of course struggles with DE, as it should, because it struggles against anything that can kite it, such as ranged damage. It has limited mobility outside Spectral Walk and Wurm, and only hopes to buy time with DS #2 or Corrosive Cloud (if it's running that). 

 

The fact that the other guys let a single DE kill their reaper actually is quite telling, because they have no idea Wtf they are (or should be) doing against a DE. If they ran away as a single group into the nearest tower/keep, none of them should even die. 

 

I come across rather few DEs in WvW, and can only surmise they are, 1) not as overpowered as we think they are, 2) not as easy to play as we think, with infinite ports and permastealth and all that kitten, and/or, 3) unable to 100-0 someone in a blink/win a fight without using a single dodge. 

 

We are simply better off playing Catalyst or Willbender, even cele Harb, all being much more common, and probably for very good reason. 

[asterix.9614]

2 hours ago, Mikhael.2391 said:

DE is worst than harb against all others classes spec that do not have  sick um due to its infinite ports. I hav eseveral on my server that can easy fight off 3+ and if of those classes comes along that can chase them out of stealth they will just port away with elite etc and re engae at will. and they can kill for ex a reaper or necro or any other classes that does not play meta while in the midle of them. should be easily fixed witha huge nerf to stealth. reveal its a poor solution to this poop game stealth.

I tried the dead eye just because I wanted to see how to counter it. Well, found out de has a 1500 range daze, a tonne of stealth, projectile barrier, a tonne of poison, blinds, soooo much port that if you get revealed just port away and kite until it goes away. Oh and high dmg as well as having access to cheese shadow arts traitline, yaaay 🙄

The other thief builds do need some amount of skills though (don't touch them anet).

Edited March 20, 2023 by asterix.9614

[SleepyBat.9034]

9 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Hey look, a cele thread in disguise.

This isn't a celestial complaint thread, read the title. Celestial gear is only part of the problem and it can be dealt with later, this topic is about the Curses/Death Magic/Harbinger w/ Anti-Toxin Rune build and why it needs to be nerfed.

[ZTeamG.4603]

2 minutes ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

This isn't a celestial complaint thread, read the title. Celestial gear is only part of the problem and it can be dealt with later, this topic is about the Curses/Death Magic/Harbinger w/ Anti-Toxin Rune build and why it needs to be nerfed.

Try running that without celestial and it won't work anywhere near as well. Even trailblazer, the 2nd-best condi option for roaming, is a huge step down. All the meta cele builds are meta for a reason, and they all have one specific thing in common: celestial stats. Harb is not the worst offender due to its limited mobility and complete lack of stealth/invulns (with only 1 non-dodge evade). The counterplay for it is about the same as the original tanky core necro, but with projectile denial being an additional counter too.

[solemn.9670]

7 minutes ago, ZTeamG.4603 said:

Try running that without celestial and it won't work anywhere near as well. Even trailblazer, the 2nd-best condi option for roaming, is a huge step down. All the meta cele builds are meta for a reason, and they all have one specific thing in common: celestial stats. Harb is not the worst offender due to its limited mobility and complete lack of stealth/invulns (with only 1 non-dodge evade). The counterplay for it is about the same as the original tanky core necro, but with projectile denial being an additional counter too.

While I agree about the cele point, harbinger spams condi at a rate that harkens back to pre-nerf condi mirage (good condi mirage players are still aids, but at least they can't just faceroll like Necro/especially harb). Basically press all the buttons and win vs 80% of builds 1v1 if you're decent at the game. Very fun lol

[Mikhael.2391]

6 hours ago, asterix.9614 said:

I tried the dead eye just because I wanted to see how to counter it. Well, found out de has a 1500 range daze, a tonne of stealth, projectile barrier, a tonne of poison, blinds, soooo much port that if you get revealed just port away and kite until it goes away. Oh and high dmg as well as having access to cheese shadow arts traitline, yaaay 🙄

The other thief builds do need some amount of skills though (don't touch them anet).

Well, you ll have people defending here that you only went against bad players mimimi. DE is ridiculously full of advantages to burn and cc from afar and run away to reset if they want on short cds.

[SleepyBat.9034]

1 hour ago, ZTeamG.4603 said:

Try running that without celestial and it won't work anywhere near as well. Even trailblazer, the 2nd-best condi option for roaming, is a huge step down. All the meta cele builds are meta for a reason, and they all have one specific thing in common: celestial stats. Harb is not the worst offender due to its limited mobility and complete lack of stealth/invulns (with only 1 non-dodge evade). The counterplay for it is about the same as the original tanky core necro, but with projectile denial being an additional counter too.

I never said Harbinger was the worst offender, it is one of the worst offenders. Harbinger doesn't have limited mobility. What are you talking about? Also, just because a build doesn't have stealth or invulnerability does not mean it's balanced, as it turns out Harbinger doesn't need either because it just face-tanks all but the highest bursts and then re-sustains.

As for that bit about counterplay unfortunately you're wrong. Unlike the original tanky core Necromancer build Harbinger has way higher kill potential thanks to having access to two mobility, stronger crowd control, higher burst damage, and not to mention way more boons. While admittedly the core builds are probably even more durable than Harbingers because they have access to Blood Magic as well as Death Magic however they are overall way less disruptive than the current Harbinger builds.

[ZTeamG.4603]

1 hour ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

I never said Harbinger was the worst offender, it is one of the worst offenders.

And yet here we are in a thread about harbinger specifically when the main problem is cele in general. If it isn't harbinger it'll be renegades, virtuosos, mirages, eles, root druids, willbenders, that p/p cele daredevil build, etc. 

1 hour ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

. Harbinger doesn't have limited mobility. What are you talking about?

2 short range movement skills in shroud =/= high mobility. You're still hella slow unless you take warhorn for swiftness, waste your stunbreak to get swiftness, or use different runes (which is substituting out one of your gripes with the build). 

1 hour ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

As for that bit about counterplay unfortunately you're wrong. Unlike the original tanky core Necromancer build Harbinger has way higher kill potential thanks to having access to two mobility, stronger crowd control, higher burst damage, and not to mention way more boons. While admittedly the core builds are probably even more durable than Harbingers because they have access to Blood Magic as well as Death Magic however they are overall way less disruptive than the current Harbinger builds.

It does have strong crowd control and higher burst, but those are the tradeoffs for not having an extra healthbar while still being an overall slow and vulnerable necro. Shroud 5 float could use a nerf to not reapply float after stunbreak, but I digress.

 

In your main post it's clear the thing you don't like is the sustain, but that sustain is (1) 70% from celestial, not from the class itself, and (2) the other 30% of the sustain from necro traitlines is the only thing keeping necros in general competitive against classes with much better active damage mitigation.

The nerfs harbinger itself needs are:

-Put the same sPvP nerf of the elite elixir into WvW (10 might instead of 25)

-Make shroud 5 unable to reapply stun to an enemy that stunbroke it.

The main way to fix the issue is just to nerf cele stats in WvW, which also addresses all the other problem classes. Equalize it to the total before conc and expertise were added.

 

 

Edit:

1 hour ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

As for that bit about counterplay unfortunately you're wrong.

Literally just put down anything that blocks projectiles and you've nullified 90% of the harbinger's damage sources.

Edited March 20, 2023 by ZTeamG.4603

[SleepyBat.9034]

28 minutes ago, ZTeamG.4603 said:

And yet here we are in a thread about harbinger specifically when the main problem is cele in general. If it isn't harbinger it'll be renegades, virtuosos, mirages, eles, root druids, willbenders, that p/p cele daredevil build, etc.

Except that, with few exceptions, the other classes aren't half as broken as Harbinger. Why is it that most Celestial builds can be easily dispatched if you know what you're doing but builds like Harbinger, P/P Daredevil, and the occasional Ranger cannot?

35 minutes ago, ZTeamG.4603 said:

2 short range movement skills in shroud =/= high mobility. You're still hella slow unless you take warhorn for swiftness, waste your stunbreak to get swiftness, or use different runes (which is substituting out one of your gripes with the build).

2400 burst mobility is slow to you? You could easily take Warhorn for Swiftness on this build in addition to Spectral Walk and stun breaks are expendable when you have the Stability access that Harbinger does. Even if you do get cc'ed it's unlikely you would be in any danger given the defensive capability you have. And honestly, it wouldn't be that hard to make an equally broken build that runs Speed Rune.

42 minutes ago, ZTeamG.4603 said:

It does have strong crowd control and higher burst, but those are the tradeoffs for not having an extra healthbar while still being an overall slow and vulnerable necro.

This would be true if it was slow and vulnerable however I wouldn't call a build with 2200 Armor and permanent Protection that. I am not here to discuss whether or not Harbinger is busted, the data is in and it speaks for itself.

48 minutes ago, ZTeamG.4603 said:

Literally just put down anything that blocks projectiles and you've nullified 90% of the harbinger's damage sources.

Pistol and Shroud 1 and 2 aren't 90% of its damage. Here's why that "counter" doesn't work, first off nobody has enough projectile block to protect themselves long enough to do any meaningful damage and second, very few builds have projectile defense in the first place.

[ZTeamG.4603]

I'm starting to think you just haven't fought any good users of the other classes and you're playing fully into the harbingers' game plan every time you run into them.

28 minutes ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

2400 burst mobility is slow to you?

600 from shroud 3, 600 from shroud 4? 

If you're counting wurm, that's a long cast teleport that also burns a stunbreak if you're using it for mobility.

30 minutes ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

stun breaks are expendable when you have the Stability access that Harbinger does

What? A traited 1 stack of stability that lasts for 3 seconds upon entering shroud? A single stack that you have to give up elixir sharing to get? The other stab source they get is 5s of all boons from the elixir, and if you're trying to box with the harbinger during that brief period then you're doing something very wrong. 

I certainly wouldn't call that good stability access.

35 minutes ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

permanent Protection

Which only can be upkept if you're letting them whale on you without doing anything about it. 

37 minutes ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

Pistol and Shroud 1 and 2 aren't 90% of its damage.

Shroud 1 and 2 are the vast majority of the harbinger's damage. Shroud 3 and 4 can be good, but give up mobility options if you use them for damage. Even the elixirs are projectiles if you want to deal damage with them.

38 minutes ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

very few builds have projectile defense in the first place.

Maybe tell us what "some of the strongest builds other classes have" that you're using are, and we can recommend you some ways to deal with harbingers.

[SleepyBat.9034]

1 hour ago, ZTeamG.4603 said:

I'm starting to think you just haven't fought any good users of the other classes and you're playing fully into the harbingers' game plan every time you run into them.

600 from shroud 3, 600 from shroud 4? 

If you're counting wurm, that's a long cast teleport that also burns a stunbreak if you're using it for mobility.

What? A traited 1 stack of stability that lasts for 3 seconds upon entering shroud? A single stack that you have to give up elixir sharing to get? The other stab source they get is 5s of all boons from the elixir, and if you're trying to box with the harbinger during that brief period then you're doing something very wrong. 

I certainly wouldn't call that good stability access.

Which only can be upkept if you're letting them whale on you without doing anything about it. 

Shroud 1 and 2 are the vast majority of the harbinger's damage. Shroud 3 and 4 can be good, but give up mobility options if you use them for damage. Even the elixirs are projectiles if you want to deal damage with them.

Maybe tell us what "some of the strongest builds other classes have" that you're using are, and we can recommend you some ways to deal with harbingers.

Either you don't comprehend how unbalanced Harbinger is or you're obviously biased. Either way I'm done conversing with someone who doesn't listen to reason.

[Zebulon.1850]

The issue with harbinger is not cele, the issue is death magic is utterly bloated.

 

We're talking a single trait line that gives perma prot, 600 toughess and either more power or condition damage reduction.

 

I finally broke down and have been testing that out, and it's hilarious how broken it is. I'm nearly invulnerable against both physical and condition damage. Even full burst condi builds barely can do more than 3-5k/sec, while anything that isn't pure zerk barely does any damage. And even if they do, I can throw 1 heal for 11k.

 

And most of that is from a single trait line.

 

You compare that with say scrapper, who at one point could get like 300 toughness, and it has since been gutted to be completely worthless because anet thought 300 toughness was too strong.

 

By far and away, the biggest issue with harb is that deathmagic as a traitline is one of the best in the entire game.