[WvW] - Another balance complaint about Harbinger in small-scale content.

[Silinsar.6298]

It's a necro. Kite and CC it.

[SleepyBat.9034]

9 minutes ago, Silinsar.6298 said:

It's a necro. Kite and CC it.

Only hammer warriors have that kind of cc and only thieves have the mobility.

[Shinja.3451]

That Harbinger is broken, yes, that the DE is also broken, yes, there are many broken things in this game, the issue is how to nerf them, anet has no idea, why do you? Just say how you would nerf the Harbinger without sending it to the trash instead of discussing what is more broken
What I would do, which is basic to balance something, but it seems that anet does not know it or does not want to, what do i know, is to nerf something by 10% and if it is not enough another 10% and if you go too far you will buff it by 10 %, that's all, it's that easy to balance a  game by numbers, because anet can't, I don't know.

[andrewlcl.8176]

9 hours ago, Mikhael.2391 said:

Well, you ll have people defending here that you only went against bad players mimimi. DE is ridiculously full of advantages to burn and cc from afar and run away to reset if they want on short cds.

Question is, if the DE ran away, did it really win the fight? The whole idea in Wvw roaming is to either stomp your enemy, or if you can't win, at least stalemate till you can escape or get friends. 

 

Anyway, it's borderline humorous reading all this talk about how OP the DE is. Sure, then, please put 50-100 hours into it and report back to us. 

 

By then, you'll either be a DE god (because, OMG it's sooo OP), and we can discuss how to nerf it, or maybe we will be whaling on other builds/classes, complaining that they need to be adjusted. 

 

I still contend that DE in general, feels the strongest when it becomes an unexpected +1 in group fights, or when catching a solo roamer unaware (which funnily enough, backstab daredevil does better). DE loses its advantage when you already see them coming, or know they are in the vicinity.

 

In theory, and at the most basic mechanic, they only need to press 4 keys to win a fight against an unsuspecting enemy. But they make one wrong step against someone competent, and they are burnt toast. Rifle DE at this point has to be built glass, otherwise it puts out insufficient pressure to even accomplish what the build is meant to do. 

 

DE is low skill floor, high skill ceiling. Easy to get into (hence a lot of DEs being absolute rubbish) and a lot of room to gain mastery (hence the odd 1/1000 DEs being nigh unkillable while killing everybody else).

 

But, where have we heard that all before? Oh, I know. Many, many other classes or builds in GW2 are low skill floor/high skill ceiling, too! 

 

As I said in an earlier post, many, many builds and classes trivialise DE fights. Play one, and you learn pretty quickly. 

[Hotride.2187]

6 hours ago, Zebulon.1850 said:

The issue with harbinger is not cele, the issue is death magic is utterly bloated.

Totally. That is why every harb runs cele. But the issue is not cele. They trait as you describe and run full zerk and they are just unstoppable, right?

[The Raven.1320]

You can always tell when a Necro gets pissed they died in a 1v1 when they come back to chase you down as a Harbinger.

[SleepyBat.9034]

7 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Totally. That is why every harb runs cele. But the issue is not cele. They trait as you describe and run full zerk and they are just unstoppable, right?

Don't be dense, you know it's a bit of both. The reason Death Magic needs to be nerfed first is because Harbinger is the outlier. If anet did nerf cele which they don't want to, Harbinger would still be in almost the same position, at the top.

[Silinsar.6298]

12 hours ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

Only hammer warriors have that kind of cc and only thieves have the mobility.

Death Magic isn't as popular with Harbs I'm usually fighting, this has been one that used it (and was a slog to bring down, but don't tell me you can't CC or outrun it):

Spoiler

 

 

Edited March 21, 2023 by Silinsar.6298

[The Raven.1320]

59 minutes ago, Silinsar.6298 said:

Death Magic isn't as popular with Harbs I'm usually fighting, this has been one that used it (and was a slog to bring down, but don't tell me you can't CC or outrun it):

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Very nice. 
I've had fairly decent success with this Hammer Zerker build. 
http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?PKgAIFlJwSYYsPWJeeX+tLA-zVRYBRFp+coKlSYFQmhQnRQvJgsHgA2DvGHcGBA-w

You can definitely tell in the 1v1s the Harb was getting mentally exhausted and making numerous mistakes towards the end of each fight. 

[Sonork.2916]

5 hours ago, Silinsar.6298 said:

Death Magic isn't as popular with Harbs I'm usually fighting, this has been one that used it (and was a slog to bring down, but don't tell me you can't CC or outrun it):

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Gotta remember, not every class has infinite super speed, 4+ CC's by default, 3+ leaps/evades/blocks and good access to soft cc like cripples and blinds.  No one is saying harb can't be killed, it's just usually overly difficult, compared to how easy it is to kill others as harb.

[Silinsar.6298]

54 minutes ago, Sonork.2916 said:

Gotta remember, not every class has infinite super speed, 4+ CC's by default, 3+ leaps/evades/blocks and good access to soft cc like cripples and blinds.  No one is saying harb can't be killed, it's just usually overly difficult, compared to how easy it is to kill others as harb.

I'd argue any of the "strongest builds other classes have" (according to OP) should have something that can exploit Harb's weaknesses. Be it a lot of avoidance / sustain, mobility, CC or overwhelming damage. Not every build has everything, but every good build should have something it can utilize against Harb. And according to OP's signature they are maining Holosmith.

 

I won't deny that Harb is strong in a straight up 1v1 in a whitebox scenario, but a lot of what people are writing here is over-exaggerated and doesn't address that for all its strengths, Harb has downsides too.

[SleepyBat.9034]

19 hours ago, Silinsar.6298 said:

I'd argue any of the "strongest builds other classes have" (according to OP) should have something that can exploit Harb's weaknesses. Be it a lot of avoidance / sustain, mobility, CC or overwhelming damage. Not every build has everything, but every good build should have something it can utilize against Harb. And according to OP's signature they are maining Holosmith.

 

I won't deny that Harb is strong in a straight up 1v1 in a whitebox scenario, but a lot of what people are writing here is over-exaggerated and doesn't address that for all its strengths, Harb has downsides too.

Nothing I said was exaggerated. Stop downplaying how busted this build is.

[ZTeamG.4603]

On 3/21/2023 at 9:58 AM, SleepyBat.9034 said:

The reason Death Magic needs to be nerfed first is because Harbinger is the outlier. If anet did nerf cele which they don't want to, Harbinger would still be in almost the same position, at the top.

Ah yes, nerf necro in general because harbinger is an outlier. Seriously, show us a version of the build that is as busted as you say without running cele/trailblazer. The next best thing you'll find after cele is trailblazer, then carrion or plaguedoc after that, and those--again--are a huge step down from the effectiveness of cele.

 

Death magic is an almost wholly defensive traitline, and because of that it isn't even used by a lot of the roaming harbs out there. Furthermore, carapace isn't nearly as overbearing as you're making it out to be, since:

1. You have to be constantly applying lots of conditions--30 in 10s, starting anew every 10s thereafter--to keep max carapace up and get protection pulses. That's a tall order for the other necro specs in 1v1s. Harbinger has a much easier time of this depending on choice of traits/runes/sigils, but even it runs into the problems in (2) and (3).  

2. Old carapace stacks don't get overwritten and stacks last 10s, so it's far from a perma buff unless you just let the necro whale on you the whole time. If they reach 30 stacks in the opening seconds of the fight, all those stacks will be gone 10s later and need to be regained regardless of them doing actions that would generate more carapace.

3. Like #1 and most of necro's sustain, it is reliant on the necro constantly landing hits on the enemy. If you're blocking/evading/blinding/stunning, the necro doesn't get enough carapace to maintain their defenses. 

 

Take away celestial, and you'll find harbinger and death magic not nearly as hard to deal with. Celestial is the only thing keeping protection duration long enough to outlast the reapplication pulse time. 

 

2 hours ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

Nothing I said was exaggerated. Stop downplaying how busted this build is.

I agree that it is very strong in 1v1s, but the reasons you keep giving for the build being busted (like its mobility, which is limited, or its stability access, which is very limited) are not reasons it's busted. In fact, you keep avoiding everything except the main reasons it's busted: 

-Celestial stats, without which it is much glassier and has far less sustain

-On-demand 25 might from the elite elixir, something that was nerfed in sPvP but strangely not nerfed in WvW.

 

When going larger than 1v1s, harb (like all necros) is very susceptible to being focused and stunlocked into oblivion. Even in 1v1s, projectile denial will completely hamper the harb's ability to do what it wants. If you're having trouble with counterplay to the harb, check out the other person's holo 1v1s and you'll notice that what they did to counter the harbinger plays perfectly into the weaknesses I've described above.

[Zebulon.1850]

23 hours ago, Silinsar.6298 said:

I'd argue any of the "strongest builds other classes have" (according to OP) should have something that can exploit Harb's weaknesses. Be it a lot of avoidance / sustain, mobility, CC or overwhelming damage. Not every build has everything, but every good build should have something it can utilize against Harb. And according to OP's signature they are maining Holosmith.

 

I won't deny that Harb is strong in a straight up 1v1 in a whitebox scenario, but a lot of what people are writing here is over-exaggerated and doesn't address that for all its strengths, Harb has downsides too.

 

Ironically, the issue is that DM harb has essentially no weakness. And if you think holo can beat DM hard, you must have got lucky and fought complete noobs. At best you could hope to cheese a fight or draw it.

 

 

1 hour ago, ZTeamG.4603 said:

Ah yes, nerf necro in general because harbinger is an outlier. Seriously, show us a version of the build that is as busted as you say without running cele/trailblazer. The next best thing you'll find after cele is trailblazer, then carrion or plaguedoc after that, and those--again--are a huge step down from the effectiveness of cele.

 

Death magic is an almost wholly defensive traitline, and because of that it isn't even used by a lot of the roaming harbs out there. Furthermore, carapace isn't nearly as overbearing as you're making it out to be, since:

1. You have to be constantly applying lots of conditions--30 in 10s, starting anew every 10s thereafter--to keep max carapace up and get protection pulses. That's a tall order for the other necro specs in 1v1s. Harbinger has a much easier time of this depending on choice of traits/runes/sigils, but even it runs into the problems in (2) and (3).  

2. Old carapace stacks don't get overwritten and stacks last 10s, so it's far from a perma buff unless you just let the necro whale on you the whole time. If they reach 30 stacks in the opening seconds of the fight, all those stacks will be gone 10s later and need to be regained regardless of them doing actions that would generate more carapace.

3. Like #1 and most of necro's sustain, it is reliant on the necro constantly landing hits on the enemy. If you're blocking/evading/blinding/stunning, the necro doesn't get enough carapace to maintain their defenses. 

 

Take away celestial, and you'll find harbinger and death magic not nearly as hard to deal with. Celestial is the only thing keeping protection duration long enough to outlast the reapplication pulse time. 

 

I agree that it is very strong in 1v1s, but the reasons you keep giving for the build being busted (like its mobility, which is limited, or its stability access, which is very limited) are not reasons it's busted. In fact, you keep avoiding everything except the main reasons it's busted: 

-Celestial stats, without which it is much glassier and has far less sustain

-On-demand 25 might from the elite elixir, something that was nerfed in sPvP but strangely not nerfed in WvW.

 

When going larger than 1v1s, harb (like all necros) is very susceptible to being focused and stunlocked into oblivion. Even in 1v1s, projectile denial will completely hamper the harb's ability to do what it wants. If you're having trouble with counterplay to the harb, check out the other person's holo 1v1s and you'll notice that what they did to counter the harbinger plays perfectly into the weaknesses I've described above.

 

 

Death magic being defensive is the whole point. The bonus that single traitline gives is insane.

 

Iin a 1v1, unless the harb is new to the game, they have absolutely no issue keeping up 25-30 stack of carapace. I can do that on reaper, and I'm playing power reaper, without access to pistol or a shroud auto that applies the stacks.

 

Celestial is not specifically the issue, you could run various runes or sigils to hit 30-50% boon duration which is all you would need for perma prot.

 

Harb and deathmagic are rife with issues that are far beyond that stat set.

Heal skill, elite, shroud spells. All of those are stronger than other classes, so you add them up with death magic and cele, it makes a class that is pretty much broken.

 

Obviously you can kill harb by doing dumb cheese nonsense, but realistically we aren't talking about builds like that, because those are just ones you design to troll a specific player, not to actually accomplish anything in wvw.

 

[Silinsar.6298]

15 hours ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

Nothing I said was exaggerated. Stop downplaying how busted this build is.

Spoiler

 

On 3/19/2023 at 7:05 PM, SleepyBat.9034 said:

This build is so broken that I'm getting farmed by brand-new WvW players while running some of the strongest builds other classes have.

On 3/19/2023 at 8:19 PM, SleepyBat.9034 said:

You might not have any issues fighting Harbingers with a glass cannon ranged build that can burst targets at 1500+ range but literally everyone else gets farmed.

On 3/21/2023 at 2:29 AM, SleepyBat.9034 said:

Only hammer warriors have that kind of cc and only thieves have the mobility.

 

If you are an experienced player with a good build vs a brand new player, they shouldn't be able to farm you.

You can fight it with other builds, as shown, and you don't need to be a Thief to outrun, or a Warrior to chain CC them.

 

10 hours ago, Zebulon.1850 said:

Ironically, the issue is that DM harb has essentially no weakness.

How does it have no weakness? It doesn't have the stealth, the overall pressure of more offensive specs, the projectile hate and stability of Cata, the mobility of... pretty much every build that commits some slots to it, almost no extra evasion or blocks. And again, I'm not saying Harb's a bad 1v1 profession, it is strong. Particularly the elite alone can turn around a fight and some reflects don't work vs Shroud skills. But other than that, consider that a class which has little evasion, and limited tools for mobility always has to have the bigger numbers on paper, otherwise it will fall short at some point.

 

11 hours ago, Zebulon.1850 said:

And if you think holo can beat DM hard, you must have got lucky and fought complete noobs.

It's a long fight but one you can win, stalemate or disengage from. So you might not always win, but personally I've found Death Magic easier to deal with than more offensive Harb variations. Skill levels are always a fickle argument. How do you measure that without diving deep into the matchup's dynamics and testing it with a lot of different players running the builds against each other? OP was complaining about how even new players supposedly farm more senior ones with Harb. The one in the video might not have been the best Harb I've fought but certainly a player with some experience.

 

11 hours ago, Zebulon.1850 said:

Obviously you can kill harb by doing dumb cheese nonsense, but realistically we aren't talking about builds like that, because those are just ones you design to troll a specific player, not to actually accomplish anything in wvw.

My impression of the meta is that it generally is quite sustain heavy - and Harb does sustain fights well when they are able to keep engaged and pressuring with conditions and corrupts. So if it is a popular meta class in your matchup that you encounter frequently, adjusting builds and playstyles to better deal with Harb is natural. That's what a metagame does, it adapts to what is strong at the moment. Dismissing builds that do that as "dumb cheese nonsense" is not an approach that is going to lead you to success.

[Zebulon.1850]

6 hours ago, Silinsar.6298 said:

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How does it have no weakness? It doesn't have the stealth, the overall pressure of more offensive specs, the projectile hate and stability of Cata, the mobility of... pretty much every build that commits some slots to it, almost no extra evasion or blocks.

 

Saying harb has no weakness because it doesn't have the stealth of the most annoying class to fight or is like cata, the defacto strongest class in the entire game is a really bad argument.

 

Honestly makes me think you are being dense on purpose, so not going to bother replying anymore.

[ZTeamG.4603]

31 minutes ago, Zebulon.1850 said:

cata, the defacto strongest class in the entire game

That...honestly explains a lot about your interesting takes in this thread.

[Silinsar.6298]

15 minutes ago, Zebulon.1850 said:

Saying harb has no weakness because it doesn't have the stealth of the most annoying class to fight or is like cata, the defacto strongest class in the entire game is a really bad argument.

You do get I'm pointing out Harb has almost no way of mitigating damage other than passive reduction and therefore them outclassing other specs in that regard is fine? How is the lack of active damage avoidance not a shortcoming of Harb?

 

18 minutes ago, Zebulon.1850 said:

Honestly makes me think you are being dense on purpose, so not going to bother replying anymore.

I'm not. Anyway, fine by me. I initially wanted to point out what you can do vs. Harb, why it might not be as broken as you think and illustrated my approach, because I thought players having troubles vs. Harbs might appreciate the advice.

[SleepyBat.9034]

52 minutes ago, Silinsar.6298 said:

You do get I'm pointing out Harb has almost no way of mitigating damage other than passive reduction and therefore them outclassing other specs in that regard is fine? How is the lack of active damage avoidance not a shortcoming of Harb?

 

I'm not. Anyway, fine by me. I initially wanted to point out what you can do vs. Harb, why it might not be as broken as you think and illustrated my approach, because I thought players having troubles vs. Harbs might appreciate the advice.

Obviously you don't need active damage defense if your passive is as high as Harbinger. Especially considering sustain. Necromancer and especially Harbinger is my second most played class, I know what I'm talking about.

Edited March 23, 2023 by SleepyBat.9034

[Atticus.7194]

On 3/19/2023 at 11:05 AM, SleepyBat.9034 said:

I'm wondering. How long will anet wait until they nerf Harbinger? After everyone quits? Nobody wants to fight a build so abusively overpowered as the Curses/Death Magic/Harbinger build that so easily wins against every other build in the game. This build has a near-perfect defense against all power damage thanks to the high Weakness application, permanent Protection, and +600 Toughness from Death Magic, and the condition cleanses from Shrowded Removal and Spectral Walk when paired with Superior Rune of Anti-Toxin are off the charts. And that's just the defensive part of the build! The number of conditions harbingers apply is simply overkill. Especially considering they have access to permanent quickness allowing them to spam their skills at such a rate that you cannot get any skills off before being overloaded with conditions. This build is so broken that I'm getting farmed by brand-new WvW players while running some of the strongest builds other classes have and to be honest it's sapping the fun out of WvW and makes me want to quit (cept I won't because I enjoy the combat system too much so I'ma write a forum post instead).

Edit: I should probably mention that in addition to all that Harbinger also has the choice to trait into -30% incoming condition damage (it stacks with Resolution btw).

I often play harb and your gaslighting is wild instead of learning at all how to counterplay you come on the forums and scream and rant and rave about this build that has hard counters (a lot of them). You don't want to learn you want to rant and ask for a nerf out of spite and spurned anger. Do better and you will often win against harbs, wanna know how?? I'll give you a hint; kiting, knowing attack ranges, waiting for their stab to run out then CC, out sustaining them, stealth and strike burst. 

 

Edited March 24, 2023 by Atticus.7194
Sorry about the rant topics like this are just the height of bad faith 

[Esufer.8762]

You can defeat 100% of harbingers by attacking them until they die 

[Dawdler.8521]

29 minutes ago, Esufer.8762 said:

You can defeat 100% of harbingers by attacking them until they die 

You will also 100% of the time loose to a harbinger if they kill you before they die.

[Esufer.8762]

29 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

You will also 100% of the time loose to a harbinger if they kill you before they die.

You’re making some very strong arguments 

[Malus.2184]

On 3/19/2023 at 7:05 PM, SleepyBat.9034 said:

I'm wondering. How long will anet wait until they nerf Harbinger?

The issue is less the Harbinger itself and more the Celestial stat. A lot of builds can achieve roaming OP'ness simply by having that stat. The best solution would be to disable Celestial in WvW and have all Celestial gear become customisable in WvW so people can choose another stat.

[Hotride.2187]

3 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

The issue is less the Harbinger itself and more the Celestial stat. A lot of builds can achieve roaming OP'ness simply by having that stat. The best solution would be to disable Celestial in WvW and have all Celestial gear become customisable in WvW so people can choose another stat.

Now watch half of wvw "roamers" explode cause you want to take their broken builds away.