The Granade Scrapper Problem

[Myror.7521]

Yes this is another thrait complaining about Granate scrapper. Only difference is I now take a better look at the whole build. 

 

I came to a promise. The Problem of why this build is so "broken" rn are NOT the granades. (Or lets say not alone)

 

Letz take a overall dps check and compare it to other classes (letz say warr since this is my Main)

Warriors hard hitting skills are:

Arcing slice (1.82)

Breaching Strike (1,32)

Aura Slicer (1,45)

Rampage Modes Dash (1.82)

 

Now Scrappers hard hitting skills:

Electro-whirl (1,5)

Rocket Charge (2.2)

Thunder Leap (2.25)

Grenades Kit:

Gralenade (AA Chain) (0,33 x 3 while every grenade Hit)

Shrapnel Grenade (0,567 x3 while every grenade Hit)

Freeze Grenade (0,5 x3 while every Grenade Hit)

Shredder Gyro (4,8 but not used that mutch)

 

So I would say the Problem is more that there are Tons and I mean for real Tons of cleave dmg in this build. This makes rezz down peops Impossible but also comes out of stealth so dodge it is also Something else.

Also while Warrior skills Hit okayish and are Just high Telegraphed the Most skills of scrapper are Not only aoe but also Bring some effects plus half of them are ranged while they have Like 5 skills that gain them superspeed. In the end yes you could Dodge 2 Times but there are too many hard Hit skills in this build. So its more Like you get him and Take him down fast or Not only you but your whole Team is death is in Like 2 Seconds. (Peops call it a noob stomp build cause No Dodge means also no Counter Play to this build but yea .... every half brained engi would Run per Superspeed and Open the fight again after CDs are Off)

 

Edited March 20, 2023 by Pati.2438

[Shao.7236]

The ability to kite and pressure at the same time is the exclusive reason why it's too good. Any builds that ever could do so was always a problem and always will be because in gameplay terms the ability to do so is a win win situation no matter how you look at it.

[Kodama.6453]

You call out rocket charge as a "hard hitter".... really?
A skill with a almost 2 second total channel time, which barely outdamages an auto attack chain used instead. Hard hitter. Wtf.

Also maybe you notice something... alot of these damage numbers have very big IFs. Thunderclap (Thunder Leap doesn't exist, btw, well done research) deals 2,25 power coefficient damage. IF the enemy, for whatever reason, decides to be a potato and stay inside the AoE field for it's entire duration of 6 seconds.

Grenades hit pretty hard. IF they all hit the target, which is unreliable because of their random spread.

Shredder gyro hits for a good chunk of damage. IF you stay on top of the enemy for it's entire duration, once again 6 seconds total.

That's a problem engineer had to deal with since the start of this game. Unreliability. We have random effects (elixirs used to be entirely random, now it's "just" some toolbelt skills and the elite elixir), effects with random spread mechanics (minefield, grenades, etc.), random procs, etc.

Sorry, but the skills you list here as "hard hitters" are pretty ridiculous. Most of these won't apply their entire damage onto a target.
If you would apply the same logic you used for these cleaving attacks to other skills from warrior, you would also have to note hundred blades as a hard hitting ability with 3,6 power coefficient, while ignoring the fact that it has a long channel time of 3 1/2 seconds.

Edited March 20, 2023 by Kodama.6453

[Myror.7521]

@Kodama.6453 Bruh If you Just think about every Skill there is Always a "IF" thats what is couterplay called litterly 🤔. Also tho i dont listed hundret Blades Here cause there is simply no and I for real mean no Situation besides someone been in downstate where you Hit the full dmg of it on an enemy player since also the hardest Hit is on the end soo ye it does good dmg but you do the half of it .... if you are good.

 

Tho I also said "the reason why its so stupid imo is Not the granated alone. Its the fact you could do Tons of CLEAVE AOE dmg in Seconds by all the above Said skills Out of stealth" So yes technicaly your right a normal Player would simply evade been in range and maybe outkite the Rest (granades are still hard Hit ranged AoE Skill but at least you would life a Bit longer and maybe you will be able to survive)

[shion.2084]

5 hours ago, Pati.2438 said:

Yes this is another thrait complaining about Granate scrapper. Only difference is I now take a better look at the whole build. 

 

I came to a promise. The Problem of why this build is so "broken" rn are NOT the granades. (Or lets say not alone)

 

Letz take a overall dps check and compare it to other classes (letz say warr since this is my Main)

Warriors hard hitting skills are:

Arcing slice (1.82)

Breaching Strike (1,32)

Aura Slicer (1,45)

Rampage Modes Dash (1.82)

 

Now Scrappers hard hitting skills:

Electro-whirl (1,5)

Rocket Charge (2.2)

Thunder Leap (2.25)

Grenades Kit:

Gralenade (AA Chain) (0,33 x 3 while every grenade Hit)

Shrapnel Grenade (0,567 x3 while every grenade Hit)

Freeze Grenade (0,5 x3 while every Grenade Hit)

Shredder Gyro (4,8 but not used that mutch)

 

So I would say the Problem is more that there are Tons and I mean for real Tons of cleave dmg in this build. This makes rezz down peops Impossible but also comes out of stealth so dodge it is also Something else.

Also while Warrior skills Hit okayish and are Just high Telegraphed the Most skills of scrapper are Not only aoe but also Bring some effects plus half of them are ranged while they have Like 5 skills that gain them superspeed. In the end yes you could Dodge 2 Times but there are too many hard Hit skills in this build. So its more Like you get him and Take him down fast or Not only you but your whole Team is death is in Like 2 Seconds. (Peops call it a noob stomp build cause No Dodge means also no Counter Play to this build but yea .... every half brained engi would Run per Superspeed and Open the fight again after CDs are Off)

 

Dude... Warrior routinely hits me for 11K kill shots.  Then their axe attack does similar.  2 hits from warrior and your dead.

[shion.2084]

9 minutes ago, shion.2084 said:

Dude... Warrior routinely hits me for 11K kill shots.  Then their axe attack does similar.  2 hits from warrior and your dead.

oh.. and the fricken thing is unblockable somehow.  Just for good kicks.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

15 minutes ago, shion.2084 said:

Dude... Warrior routinely hits me for 11K kill shots.  Then their axe attack does similar.  2 hits from warrior and your dead.

 

You're getting hit by kill shot?  👀

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

10 minutes ago, shion.2084 said:

oh.. and the fricken thing is unblockable somehow.  Just for good kicks.

 

If you're having difficulty avoiding killshot and axes, imagine how frustrated players must be when you press your toolbelt skills and they have to deal with rockets, arc lightning and whatever you decided to use from your weapon skills at the same time.

Not saying anything is busted one way or the other, but it's really weird how someone would draw the line at obnoxious if they facetank kill shot, but be unable to see why people might be a little annoyed with dealing with something that can take several times as many actions in the same span of time without having to commit to animations to the same extent. 

[Hotride.2187]

I really wouldn't compare scrapper to anything war. The types of builds that war can run "similar" to grenade scrapper are just bad. The types of good builds that war can run (only spb at this point) destroy scrappers 1v1. The two have different roles to fill, probably it makes more sense to compare scrapper to wb/herald/vindi/holo.

Edited March 20, 2023 by Hotride.2187

[shion.2084]

20 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

You're getting hit by kill shot?  👀

Yeah I'm in a mele fight, and the thing is unblock able.   Someone's standing on a ledge in Collesium.  Your getting hit by it too.

Edited March 20, 2023 by shion.2084

[shion.2084]

5 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

I really wouldn't compare scrapper to anything war. The types of builds that war can run "similar" to grenade scrapper are just bad. The types of good builds that war can run (only spb at this point) destroy scrappers 1v1. The two have different roles to fill, probably it makes more sense to compare scrapper to wb/herald/vindi/holo.

as a scrapper I do not v1 a SB.  That's just a stupid waste of time, and one wrong dodge where it lands a CC, and you can never get up.   
You really don't want to compare warrior and scrapper in an isolated V1 context if your looking to say scrapper is too powerful.

[Kuma.1503]

Comparing Scrapper to Warrior is comparing apples to oranges. 

One has constant stab uptime on defense builds by landing their CCs, great stunbreak access, and isn't particularly weak to being focused. 

The other is exceptionally weak to crowd control, runs 1 stunbreak on most builds, and if they go glass, they drop like flies when focused. 

 

Warrior's a proper bruiser. Scrapper is a bruiser spec in concept only. It's a glorified glass canon at the moment because the bruiser builds are underperforming atm. 

Edited March 20, 2023 by Kuma.1503

[Myror.7521]

@Kuma.1503 I know it was stupid to comparing them but warr is litterly the only thing im playing. (Maybe Thief Guardian and Ranger Sometimes but yea 90% is warr). Also all I want to make clear was litterly that granades are not the only Thing that Hit stupidly hard so you can't Dodge/evade as many Times as you could eat 7k Hits by scrapper (even while some are easier to evade to get Hit)

[shion.2084]

5 minutes ago, Pati.2438 said:

@Kuma.1503 I know it was stupid to comparing them but warr is litterly the only thing im playing. (Maybe Thief Guardian and Ranger Sometimes but yea 90% is warr). Also all I want to make clear was litterly that granades are not the only Thing that Hit stupidly hard so you can't Dodge/evade as many Times as you could eat 7k Hits by scrapper (even while some are easier to evade to get Hit)

are you having trouble holding a point on bunker spell breaker against a scrapper?

[Myror.7521]

@shion.2084 it depends in If the scrapper got actually a brain and goes Kite Mode. Or He let me free Hit him xd

[Kodama.6453]

3 hours ago, Pati.2438 said:

Also tho i dont listed hundret Blades Here cause there is simply no and I for real mean no Situation besides someone been in downstate where you Hit the full dmg of it on an enemy player

Yet for some reason you still count thunderclap. If you stay in a damaging AoE field for fricking 6 seconds, guess what, you made a mistake. Who ever gets hit by the full duration of thunderclap except if they are already in downstate?

Again, your comparison here is biased. You count these skills as "hard hitters" (and again, you even count rocket charge, lul), yet you don't apply the same criteria to the warrior skills.

[AlPower.2476]

 This dude plays the class that can kill easily all Scrappers, even non grenadiers or non glass cannons and still complaining about?

[Stalima.5490]

I don't think the OP is taking into account cooldowns either, many of the engineer cooldowns have around 2-3x the cooldown of the warrior skills and in some cases are also spread over a long duration rather than just outright instant like the warrior.

In the case of grenade barrage they could probably just have the engineer throw the grenades into the air and fall in a staggered fashion rather than straight on the ground instantly or just throw them on the ground and they all detonate seperately with different fuse times.

Edited March 20, 2023 by Stalima.5490

[bethekey.8314]

I, for one, am fine with nerfing Granade kit. Hell, even nerf Granate kit. Just keep Grenade kit about the same.

Edited March 21, 2023 by bethekey.8314

[Leonidrex.5649]

why did they even buff the nade kit in the first place, every skill is a long range aoe damage skill, shits boring af

[Kuma.1503]

35 minutes ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

why did they even buff the nade kit in the first place, every skill is a long range aoe damage skill, shits boring af

Probably because the  "burst" skill was nerfed to the point where it hit less hard than the filler skill. 

Still don't think they're overperforming right now. Just annoying for people to play against.

[Myror.7521]

@Kuma.1503 in that case we buff eviscerate from 2.0 to 2.4

 

Kekw okay sry xD. Reminds me of eviscerate. That one is so hard nerfed that even the AA Chain does nearly the Same amount of DPS as the burst Skill xD.

 

I would remind to let it have a CD on its normal Skill and let it hit Just a Bit Harder in that case. Granade Kit AA Chain is broken cause its simply a Ranged AoE Skill that does fairly amount of dmg (surely you could now say "but all 3 never Hit" ) that could also be casted behind yourself. So the fairest Nerf would be a CD on First Skill and let it Deal a Bit more DMG so that you could actually Dodge it and Not get spamed by it the whole time or they let it be not castable behind you.

But as it stand right now its very toxic and unfun to Play against cause there is in its actuall state no real Counter Play though it. (Besides that this Skill is Buggy sometimes of course)

 

[Exalted Quality.8534]

don't complain about scrappers or nades until eles/mesmers can't invuln for 8 seconds straight while having godly mobility

[ventress.4879]

Normally when I see a grenade throwing Engineer we just target him first, same principle behind Soulbeast too. 

If you put but of team pressure on the grenadier then they either leave or die. 

Edited March 21, 2023 by ventress.4879

[Kuma.1503]

5 hours ago, Pati.2438 said:

@Kuma.1503 in that case we buff eviscerate from 2.0 to 2.4

 

Kekw okay sry xD. Reminds me of eviscerate. That one is so hard nerfed that even the AA Chain does nearly the Same amount of DPS as the burst Skill xD.

I'm down for axe buffs. Do it. Lets go.

5 hours ago, Pati.2438 said:

I would remind to let it have a CD on its normal Skill and let it hit Just a Bit Harder in that case. Granade Kit AA Chain is broken cause its simply a Ranged AoE Skill that does fairly amount of dmg (surely you could now say "but all 3 never Hit" ) that could also be casted behind yourself. So the fairest Nerf would be a CD on First Skill and let it Deal a Bit more DMG so that you could actually Dodge it and Not get spamed by it the whole time or they let it be not castable behind you.

Fine with me so long as they bring up our weapon skill auto attacks that have been laughably overnerfed. Rifle especially, which Anet overcorrected on because of constant complaining. That should not be dealing less damage than elixir gun. 

For scrapper, maybe bring their weapons skill CDs down so there isn't so much downtime. A weakness which also encourages spamming nades to fill the gaps. If they have long weapon CDs, weak hammer autos, and get memed into the dirt by stuns and condis if they fight in melee... what behavior would one reasonably expect from a scrapper?

If we want engi to run around and kite with nades less, give them the tools to do something else. 

5 hours ago, Pati.2438 said:

But as it stand right now its very toxic and unfun to Play against cause there is in its actuall state no real Counter Play though it. (Besides that this Skill is Buggy sometimes of course)

 

Projectile hate.

unpredictable movement. Do not chase engis in a straight line if they are kiting you. 

If they are throwing them point blank so they can't miss... You're warrior. You win that exchange. 

If they have snap target, Running perpendicular to the engi makes 90% of the nades miss. Works even better with swiftness. 

They have counterplay, people just don't pay attention to the nade casts that whiffed because the opponent didn't correctly predict what direction you were moving in (or they have snap target on which is a trap). 

They pay attention to the 2 out of 5 casts that did hit and crit them for 3k. That's just how the human mind works. 

 

 

 

Edited March 21, 2023 by Kuma.1503