AlacRenegade question

[ShirukuSama.9812]

Hi! 

I am fairly new here, pls bear with me.
So I started to build an AlacRen. I watched videos, builds from youtube.  They mentioned, because of the recent changes  Ren needs only 33% boon duration for perma-alacrity.

I use this video as a reference:

My problem is even if I have a 40%  boon duration,  my orders from above skill has a downtime of 5 seconds.  Unlike in the video, the green counter changes to grey at  5th second.
My build is not the exact build like in the video: It's cele accessories, 3/3 ritualist/viper mix, with +boon duration runes, but a 39.27% boon duration on the character sheet.

Am I missing something? How does the skill work?  Boon duration runes (like leadership, fireworks) work differently from concentrate stat?? I don't understand what's happening.
Thanks for your help.
(Should I post a screenshot of my build?)

[Infusion.7149]

Are you running Righteous Rebel? That is the main thing limiting you besides boon duration. The only other thing I can think of is you are delaying the cast due to not having energy.

[ShirukuSama.9812]

2 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Are you running Righteous Rebel? That is the main thing limiting you besides boon duration. The only other thing I can think of is you are delaying the cast due to not having energy.

Nope. I am dumb  asf😄
But thank you very much, Kind Sir. Now I can sleep tonight, unlike in the last 2-3 days...

Have a nice day.
 

[Buran.3796]

   I'll take this opportunity to express a doubt about  Alacrigade:

    I saw that in the Snow Crows page the "prescribed" build is full Ritualist gear except a Viper's chest piece (I guess to run enough bood duration to grant perma-alacrity and then push max damage possible). Rune of choice is Nightmare (as in the pure condi dps Renegade build) and for sigils they use the ones which proc condis on weapon swap (since the optimal rotation tries to get the max value from Charged Mist, constantly depleting energy and rotating both legends and weapons asap).

   Now the question: is really that choice the optimal one? Today I tested in the Arrowhead Valley at Auric Basin the Ritualist build against some Arrowhead Hatchlings. Since the build has some complexity in rotations and mines are probably far from stellar I just did  two test: auto attacking with short bow and then doing a short bow burst. Then did the same with a Celestial build using Leadership runes (tho that build runs sigil of bursting and Devastation instead of Invocation, so is not exactly apples to aples, albeit I can repeat it 1 : 1 if is required).

    So, the Ritualist build has near 1500 condition damage, 8% base cc, 150% cd and 37% boon duration, 100-87% condi duration  with no food:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmwAUlflhQLMJSjFRZMIajBSjMBygjuk5TH-zRRYmhIIH10+FSXJQkhQlVgwDAA-e

    The Celestial build has near 800 condition damage, 37% base cc, 195% cd, 1675 power and 70% boon duration, 70% condi duration with no food:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmwAUlflxQHMPyh1RNMO6hRSfMCKgjul+TH-zxIY1om/QiUIUpKoDJgHHAA-e

    The Ritualist build killed the Arrowhead Hatchlings in 11, 10 and 11 seconds using short bow's AA, and in 4, 4 and 3.5 seconds using a burst from the short bow skills.

   The Celestial builds killed the Arrowhead Hatchlings in 10, 11 and 11 seconds using short bow's AA, and in 3, 4 and 3 seconds using a burst from the Short Bow skills.

   So: I have no clue if in an optimal rotation over a stationary, non beligerant target the Ritualist build which takes advantage of Charged Mists achieves better dps than the Celestial one running Devastation (traitlines aren't even the question since can be swaped at will for no cost). BUT, in terms of raw damage, the output seems to be roughly the same. Is Ritaualist better? It provides more HP (26.5k vs 22.5k) and I would agree that the 675 extra healing points in Celestial is not that relevant in those particular builds, but Celestial gives also 675 extra toughness and aditional 32% boon duration. In the Celestial build with Leadership runes once the F4 finishes the cooldown you have 4 seconds "of gratia" to recast it, and even with Fireworks runes the window is still 3 seconds (with the mobility and extra might and vigor generation).

   I have my doubts about having 4k extra HP being better than having +32% extra boon duration (Leadership, +19,6% with Fireworks), specailly taking in consideration that both builds are well over 20k HP. Also, the more balance nature of the physical+condition damage of Celestial is probably a better "do it all" over the full condition choice with Ritualist. I'm wrong?

 

Edit: added video, sorry for the lack of text & transitions, just installed Resolve yesterday and I'm figuring how to edit in it.

Edited April 3, 2023 by Buran.3796

[UncreativeGreen.2019]

2 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

   I'll take this opportunity to express a doubt about  Alacrigade:

    I saw that in the Snow Crows page the "prescribed" build is full Ritualist gear except a Viper's chest piece (I guess to run enough bood duration to grant perma-alacrity and then push max damage possible). Rune of choice is Nightmare (as in the pure condi dps Renegade build) and for sigils they use the ones which proc condis on weapon swap (since the optimal rotation tries to get the max value from Charged Mist, constantly depleting energy and rotating both legends and weapons asap).

   Now the question: is really that choice the optimal one? Today I tested in the Arrowhead Valley at Auric Basin the Ritualist build against some Arrowhead Hatchlings. Since the build has some complexity in rotations and mines are probably far from stellar I just did  two test: auto attacking with short bow and then doing a short bow burst. Then did the same with a Celestial build using Leadership runes (tho that build runs sigil of bursting and Devastation instead of Invocation, so is not exactly apples to aples, albeit I can repeat it 1 : 1 if is required).

    So, the Ritualist build has near 1500 condition damage, 8% base cc, 150% cd and 37% boon duration, 100-87% condi duration  with no food:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmwAUlflhQLMJSjFRZMIajBSjMBygjuk5TH-zRRYmhIIH10+FSXJQkhQlVgwDAA-e

    The Celestial build has near 800 condition damage, 37% base cc, 195% cd, 1675 power and 70% boon duration, 70% condi duration with no food:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmwAUlflxQHMPyh1RNMO6hRSfMCKgjul+TH-zxIY1om/QiUIUpKoDJgHHAA-e

    The Ritualist build killed the Arrowhead Hatchlings in 11, 10 and 11 seconds using short bow's AA, and in 4, 4 and 3.5 seconds using a burst from the short bow skills.

   The Celestial builds killed the Arrowhead Hatchlings in 10, 11 and 11 seconds using short bow's AA, and in 3, 4 and 3 seconds using a burst from the Short Bow skills.

   So: I have no clue if in an optimal rotation over a stationary, non beligerant target the Ritualist build which takes advantage of Charged Mists achieves better dps than the Celestial one running Devastation (traitlines aren't even the question since can be swaped at will for no cost). BUT, in terms of raw damage, the output seems to be roughly the same. Is Ritaualist better? It provides more HP (26.5k vs 22.5k) and I would agree that the 675 extra healing points in Celestial is not that relevant in those particular builds, but Celestial gives also 675 extra toughness and aditional 32% boon duration. In the Celestial build with Leadership runes once the F4 finishes the cooldown you have 4 seconds "of gratia" to recast it, and even with Fireworks runes the window is still 3 seconds (with the mobility and extra might and vigor generation).

   I have my doubts about having 4k extra HP being better than having +32% extra boon duration (Leadership, +19,6% with Fireworks), specailly taking in consideration that both builds are well over 20k HP. Also, the more balance nature of the physical+condition damage of Celestial is probably a better "do it all" over the full condition choice with Ritualist. I'm wrong?

 

What is this for? Cause you took a raid build out of its defined meta and analyzed it in Open world to find out that having power damage helped deal with low hp targets and remarked on the how extra stats can make a build comfy. Yes that's nothing new. You also only ran "burst" tests. I would also test out their sustained damage on large hp mobs or better yet, the DPS golem for a more defined answer.... but if these tests were for an open world analyses, then I would run whatever lets you kill in a time frame you find suitable with as much survivability as you prefer because there's very little out in the Open world that require more than applying slightly more skill than auto attacking

[Polar.8634]

That and you don't want toughness on raid build

[Buran.3796]

7 minutes ago, Polar.8634 said:

That and you don't want toughness on raid build

   That would make sense.

   @UncreativeGreen.2019 I'm asking if Ritualist alacrigade really does more damage than the same build with celestial gear, because as I said I'm not competent doing consistent rotations with Renegade. My test were limited to auto attacks & burst due I can do both consistently.

   Anyway, in the ShirukuSama video the Vinetooth soloed in 42 seconds, so I guess I can try (and I would) to do the same with celestial stats

[Infusion.7149]

There hasn't been a reason to run full leadership runes let alone full celestial for an alac renegade ever since boon duration required dropped from ~78%. Plus if you are using dwarf + shiro you aren't even using the right combination of legends for a condition build and you give up one of the main advantages of running renegade in PVE (600CC on darkrazor).

It just so happens that using shortbow is well balanced for power and conditions, but if you did similar testing with a low power coefficient weapon (i.e. mace mainhand) it would skew far more towards the viper/ritualist gear.

Snowcrows tries to optimize for raiding and instanced content where toughness tanking is a thing, so you would not run celestial gear to the extent of 1600+ toughness. At best you could run ~1150 (to match soulbeast) or ~1200 (to match a DPS catalyst) : anything more means you really need to communicate very well with your tank. In fractals you also get extra boon duration from mist potions so the extra boon duration is not of much help. Their (SC) site also runs minimum boon duration for StM chrono for example.

Edited April 4, 2023 by Infusion.7149

[Thrones.6739]

On 4/4/2023 at 12:46 AM, Buran.3796 said:

   That would make sense.

   @UncreativeGreen.2019 I'm asking if Ritualist alacrigade really does more damage than the same build with celestial gear, because as I said I'm not competent doing consistent rotations with Renegade. My test were limited to auto attacks & burst due I can do both consistently.

   Anyway, in the ShirukuSama video the Vinetooth soloed in 42 seconds, so I guess I can try (and I would) to do the same with celestial stats

 

First of all condi's has a ramp up time. You must stack condi's on your target to fully utilize your condi dps. This is why power dps is preferred on bosses with multiple phases as phasing the bosses resets condi stacks. However, on 1 phase bosses, Condi's will outperform Power in most cases. That being said its not surprising that Celestial outperforms Ritualist on low health targets because 1 you are not able to stack up your condis before the target dies and 2 as mentioned earlier short bow scales very well with power and condi stats. If you want to get a more fair and clearer picture of how Celestial stacks up to Ritualist you should try your rotation on the Combat Dummy in the raid lobby. 

[Nephalem.8921]

On 4/3/2023 at 9:19 PM, Buran.3796 said:

   I'll take this opportunity to express a doubt about  Alacrigade:

    I saw that in the Snow Crows page the "prescribed" build is full Ritualist gear except a Viper's chest piece (I guess to run enough bood duration to grant perma-alacrity and then push max damage possible). Rune of choice is Nightmare (as in the pure condi dps Renegade build) and for sigils they use the ones which proc condis on weapon swap (since the optimal rotation tries to get the max value from Charged Mist, constantly depleting energy and rotating both legends and weapons asap).

   Now the question: is really that choice the optimal one? Today I tested in the Arrowhead Valley at Auric Basin the Ritualist build against some Arrowhead Hatchlings. Since the build has some complexity in rotations and mines are probably far from stellar I just did  two test: auto attacking with short bow and then doing a short bow burst. Then did the same with a Celestial build using Leadership runes (tho that build runs sigil of bursting and Devastation instead of Invocation, so is not exactly apples to aples, albeit I can repeat it 1 : 1 if is required).

    So, the Ritualist build has near 1500 condition damage, 8% base cc, 150% cd and 37% boon duration, 100-87% condi duration  with no food:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmwAUlflhQLMJSjFRZMIajBSjMBygjuk5TH-zRRYmhIIH10+FSXJQkhQlVgwDAA-e

    The Celestial build has near 800 condition damage, 37% base cc, 195% cd, 1675 power and 70% boon duration, 70% condi duration with no food:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmwAUlflxQHMPyh1RNMO6hRSfMCKgjul+TH-zxIY1om/QiUIUpKoDJgHHAA-e

    The Ritualist build killed the Arrowhead Hatchlings in 11, 10 and 11 seconds using short bow's AA, and in 4, 4 and 3.5 seconds using a burst from the short bow skills.

   The Celestial builds killed the Arrowhead Hatchlings in 10, 11 and 11 seconds using short bow's AA, and in 3, 4 and 3 seconds using a burst from the Short Bow skills.

   So: I have no clue if in an optimal rotation over a stationary, non beligerant target the Ritualist build which takes advantage of Charged Mists achieves better dps than the Celestial one running Devastation (traitlines aren't even the question since can be swaped at will for no cost). BUT, in terms of raw damage, the output seems to be roughly the same. Is Ritaualist better? It provides more HP (26.5k vs 22.5k) and I would agree that the 675 extra healing points in Celestial is not that relevant in those particular builds, but Celestial gives also 675 extra toughness and aditional 32% boon duration. In the Celestial build with Leadership runes once the F4 finishes the cooldown you have 4 seconds "of gratia" to recast it, and even with Fireworks runes the window is still 3 seconds (with the mobility and extra might and vigor generation).

   I have my doubts about having 4k extra HP being better than having +32% extra boon duration (Leadership, +19,6% with Fireworks), specailly taking in consideration that both builds are well over 20k HP. Also, the more balance nature of the physical+condition damage of Celestial is probably a better "do it all" over the full condition choice with Ritualist. I'm wrong?

 

Edit: added video, sorry for the lack of text & transitions, just installed Resolve yesterday and I'm figuring how to edit in it.

That is the worst test i've seen here so far. Why are you doing only auto attacks when not all skills have the same power coefficients and some skills no power coefficients at all? Condi application of shortbow aa is not the best either. Why are you testing it on hilariously low hp open world mobs where obviously the cele power portion blows everything out of proportion? The golem area exists for a reason.

 

Edited April 22, 2023 by Nephalem.8921

[Buran.3796]

8 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Why are you doing only auto attacks when not all skills have the same power coefficients and some skills no power coefficients at all? Condi application of shortbow aa is not the best either. Why are you testing it on hilariously low hp open world mobs where obviously the cele power portion blows everything out of proportion? The golem area exists for a reason.

   Due my lack of skill. The Ritualist build soloes the Champion Mordrem Vinetooth in 42", and my best time with ANY build at  is 52", so MY skills with the rotations of this specific build are just bad and useless to make any comparison. If anyone has the chance to try the same and would like to share it would be great.

   Anyway, the incoming patch is going to nerf damage from the alacrigade ritualist Renegade, so for OW meta events (as Palawadan... ), I would keep using celestial over ritualist. Must add that for solo OW I still prefer variants of Vindicator, Mirage or cHerald, amongs others, over Renegade.

[Nephalem.8921]

3 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

   Due my lack of skill. The Ritualist build soloes the Champion Mordrem Vinetooth in 42", and my best time with ANY build at  is 52", so MY skills with the rotations of this specific build are just bad and useless to make any comparison. If anyone has the chance to try the same and would like to share it would be great.

   Anyway, the incoming patch is going to nerf damage from the alacrigade ritualist Renegade, so for OW meta events (as Palawadan... ), I would keep using celestial over ritualist. Must add that for solo OW I still prefer variants of Vindicator, Mirage or cHerald, amongs others, over Renegade.

The nerf is expected to cost alac ritu ren like 100 dps. it is really not that big. No idea why they want to nerf it anyways. almost nobody plays it.

[Urud.4925]

I'm going to use the same thread for a question about the alacrene played as healer, if you don't mind.

I recently decided to rebuild my power herald, since it wasn't that good as dps anyway and I have better options, and I don't have a healer among my 9 characters (I don't like the sound of the druid's staff, the fb has animations that make me sick (the pull) and it requires to remember too many skills for an altoholic like me, and although I like the tempest as healer, it doesn't seem so sought-after).

I recently changed the stats of my gear from marauder to full harrier, but I still didn't choose the runes. A full set of harrier alone is enough to have permanent alacrity (with 2-3 seconds in excess), and usually 2 uses of F1 are also enough to have might at 25, so I'm not sure that I still need boon duration (at least not from the runes, I'll take it from the sigils, probably). I've read that for this kind of build, the rune of the monk is recommended, which seems good for the extra 10% (+ additional 10%) of healing effectiveness. However, my doubt is about my HP that dropped from 30k to 18k, after changing gear (including the empowering at the anvil and the jade bot +10). Is it enough, or I can choose a rune to have some extra vitality (let's say at 20k), without losing too much healing power? What are the options?

So far I'm considering:

1) Rune of the Monk: 175 heal.pow, 15% boon, 20% heal.effect.

2) Rune of the Flock: 175 heal.pow, 100 vitality, +10% health, +1k heal after using skill #6 (that would be a boost in Kalla, but pretty useless in Ventari. Confirmation required)

3) Rune of Rebirth: 300 heal.power (in my test, the +125 heal.pow = 2,3% heal.effect.), a barrier from fatal damage every 90 seconds

4) Rune of Divinity: +78 to all stats (good for some extra precision, as I reach +88% with fury and only with full endurance; but I don't know if I want some extra toughness), +10% health

[Erenias.6947]

23 hours ago, Urud.4925 said:

I'm going to use the same thread for a question about the alacrene played as healer, if you don't mind.

I recently decided to rebuild my power herald, since it wasn't that good as dps anyway and I have better options, and I don't have a healer among my 9 characters (I don't like the sound of the druid's staff, the fb has animations that make me sick (the pull) and it requires to remember too many skills for an altoholic like me, and although I like the tempest as healer, it doesn't seem so sought-after).

I recently changed the stats of my gear from marauder to full harrier, but I still didn't choose the runes. A full set of harrier alone is enough to have permanent alacrity (with 2-3 seconds in excess), and usually 2 uses of F1 are also enough to have might at 25, so I'm not sure that I still need boon duration (at least not from the runes, I'll take it from the sigils, probably). I've read that for this kind of build, the rune of the monk is recommended, which seems good for the extra 10% (+ additional 10%) of healing effectiveness. However, my doubt is about my HP that dropped from 30k to 18k, after changing gear (including the empowering at the anvil and the jade bot +10). Is it enough, or I can choose a rune to have some extra vitality (let's say at 20k), without losing too much healing power? What are the options?

So far I'm considering:

1) Rune of the Monk: 175 heal.pow, 15% boon, 20% heal.effect.

2) Rune of the Flock: 175 heal.pow, 100 vitality, +10% health, +1k heal after using skill #6 (that would be a boost in Kalla, but pretty useless in Ventari. Confirmation required)

3) Rune of Rebirth: 300 heal.power (in my test, the +125 heal.pow = 2,3% heal.effect.), a barrier from fatal damage every 90 seconds

4) Rune of Divinity: +78 to all stats (good for some extra precision, as I reach +88% with fury and only with full endurance; but I don't know if I want some extra toughness), +10% health

If you want to play a healer you should use a healing rune. Rune of the Monk and Rune of Water are the best choices, depending on how much boon duration you need. You should also use a Sigil of Transference. If you feel intimidated by the low HP you should use Minstrel stats instead, but be ready to tank in raids in this case. Alternatively get enough harrier gear to reach minimum boon duration (40% ish) and fill in the rest with magi gear (healpower, vitality, precision)

 

[draxynnic.3719]

If you're running full Harrier's, you shouldn't need to turn to runes or sigils for extra boon duration unless you want the extra leeway. The bigger issue is that healren isn't really in high demand either. You might be better off with heal herald unless you've decided you really don't enjoy the herald playstyle (although it's worth noting that you can probably use mostly the same gear for both, so you can probably reasonably conveniently swap between them depending on what the group needs). It's worth noting that heal herald is also fairly close to one of the easiest handkite builds if you ever decide to challenge Deimos to a slapping contest.

Edited April 25, 2023 by draxynnic.3719
Unca Deimos

[Urud.4925]

I'm actually used to play the herald, so going heal herald would be even better for me (I guess changing from perma alac to perma quickness support). I simply didn't find a build on metabattle for the heal herald (the hand kiter seems specific for Deimos, and I don't want to have a build only for a single raid). But I see that there's something for the herald, I'll have a look.

Changing some piece of gear from harrier to magi seems also a good idea, thanks Erenias.

[draxynnic.3719]

I've largely stopped using metabattle - ironic as it may be with the name, I've noticed that they tend to be slow to catch up to shifts in the meta outside of automated tournaments. Hardstuck.gg and Snowcrows both have quickheal herald, although the latter puts it under the Viable tab rather than the Recommended tab.

Edited April 25, 2023 by draxynnic.3719