[PvP] - Potential fix for Scrapper's "toxic" build. - No trolls allowed!

[SleepyBat.9034]

If this stealth bombing Scrapper build is actually as unbalanced as everyone seems to think, I see two options that might help fix it.

1. Rework Sneak Gyro to prevent stealth 1-shot bursts.
2. Remove Scrapper's capability to 1-shot burst from stealth.

One way to achieve the first option would be to make Sneak Gyro stationary but add additional effects.

The second option seems to be in line with Anet's idea to make Scrapper into a "brawler" playstyle and leaves Sneak Gyro open for disengage. It would mean reducing the power coefficients on Grenade Barrage, Pry Bar, and potentially Rocket, this change would affect Scrapper only.

These are ideas from someone who rarely plays PvP and hasn't tried the build in question. I am operating on hearsay, wiki information, and my own understanding of the Engineer class.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

About Scrapper… look, the reason why anyone plays any build fundamentally is because it can accomplish a goal of some kind…Remove the ability to accomplish a goal and the build will just die. Like any creature in nature…remove that creatures “thing” that makes it special and it will disappear.

 

For example a Giraffes “thing” is they have long necks. Their able to achieve a goal that gives them an advantage over their competitors, and this is the reason why they exist at all to begin with, with the long necks that they have. The game should be nurturing the fact that different builds and play styles can exist…not stripping it away…

 

because out there in the space of possibilities, there will arrive a counter to this build if it exists in the space of possibilities…and it will give that build a purpose to exist itself. It’s not hard to see, that our purpose is derivative of what exists and the first thing people want to do in terms of “balance” is to remove and delete things…it is the complete opposite of what nature, the most balanced system known to exist, actually does…

 

what I’m saying is that, like many others before you are making the same man-made mistake that every human seems to make. It’s just the “human” way to solve problems…”let’s nerf and remove it,” Is almost synonymous with “let’s just nuke the f’r” and thinking this is somehow a healthy procedure for the game.

 

here’s some of my personal take and experience in the game…when I was playing about a month ago I ran into some scrappers playing builds like this. For my reaper…it was no issue for me. In fact i demolished most of them with great ease. So I don’t align with the “this is so Op omg” argument…if I could I’d want more people to play it because it gives my reaper a purpose to exist in this meta game.

 

i also don’t align with the idea that AT’s are the arbitrary benchmark for how things get changed…it’s like looking at DPS golems and making changes based on that…it’s all arbitrary and superficial at best and none of these worthless procedures have shown or will ever show any meaningful change.

Edited March 31, 2023 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Lonecap.4105]

1 hour ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

These are ideas from someone who rarely plays PvP and hasn't tried the build in question.

Why do you feel invested enough to propose these changes, in which case?

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

6 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

About Scrapper… look, the reason why anyone plays any build fundamentally is because it can accomplish a goal of some kind. Remove the ability to accomplish a goal and the build will just die. 

They won't learn. 

 

They think if they nerf things to the ground most people will still try the thing that no longer works instead of just finding the next best way to do the thing they need to do. 

 

They definitely don't think the next best way to do that thing involves their class. 

[shion.2084]

10 hours ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

If this stealth bombing Scrapper build is actually as unbalanced as everyone seems to think, I see two options that might help fix it.

1. Rework Sneak Gyro to prevent stealth 1-shot bursts.
2. Remove Scrapper's capability to 1-shot burst from stealth.

One way to achieve the first option would be to make Sneak Gyro stationary but add additional effects.

The second option seems to be in line with Anet's idea to make Scrapper into a "brawler" playstyle and leaves Sneak Gyro open for disengage. It would mean reducing the power coefficients on Grenade Barrage, Pry Bar, and potentially Rocket, this change would affect Scrapper only.

These are ideas from someone who rarely plays PvP and hasn't tried the build in question. I am operating on hearsay, wiki information, and my own understanding of the Engineer class.

Just make it so that anyone coming out of stealth or porting has a 1000 power / condition damage nerf for 4 seconds.   Then no more stealth ganking for anyone… problem solved. 
 

No silly Mesmer spikes from stealth, or soul beast / rev / will bender port and poops.   Silly dragon hunter stealth 10k arrow shots.

 

I’m good if the solution to this is global,

[Kuma.1503]

Give Sneak gyro it's WvW version. 

Give us back quickness. 

Un-butcher rifle autos.

Rework superspeed so it isn't on heal (boring design. Previous version on combo finisher was better.)

(someone else suggested this) Make Grenade Barrage do delayed staggered damage. Kind of like glyph of storms but with a shorter duration. You'll have to set it up with your stuns to get the most out of it. Also addresses stealth one shots. Also differentiates it from your other nade skills. 

Those five things and I'm happy. 

Edited April 1, 2023 by Kuma.1503

[Myror.7521]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 I normaly also thinking Like this Sir. But i must say this build is so toxic to Play against it should be removed and nothing else (or at least hard nerfed). The best Option how to get that done would be gain granades AA Chain a cd so you could Not actually Spam the Heck Out off it or rework it so you can't Cast it behind yourself. Those are the Options in my eyes while i would prefer the CD one

[Bazsi.2734]

On 3/31/2023 at 7:49 PM, SleepyBat.9034 said:

SNIP 
 

These are ideas from someone who rarely plays PvP and hasn't tried the build in question. I am operating on hearsay, wiki information, and my own understanding of the Engineer class.

You sure know how to sell your ideas buddy. 

[Kodama.6453]

On 4/1/2023 at 11:57 AM, Pati.2438 said:

granades AA Chain a cd

Dude, what? You want to add a CD to an auto attack? Are you listening to yourself? You know what an auto attack actually is, right?

kitten, sometimes I am really glad that Anet pays little attention to the forums.

Edited April 3, 2023 by Kodama.6453

[Myror.7521]

@Kodama.6453 Well its Bad that IT actually is an AA Chain cause it Hits for 3-4k each on range and is an aoe it surely need a Nerf. Eather hard DPS Nerf Or (and this would Made more sence to me since its a Kit ) let it Deal Harder dps but let it get a CD. Thats all what im sain. 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

This isn't constructive and is only tangentially related to the thread but:

I think every class should have a build that can boom people but crumples like a tin can the moment it get interrupted.

It reminds of a time when PvP was entertaining, before people got too into their feelings about getting deleted and begged Anet to slow the game down so much it bored everyone to death.

Edited April 3, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Kodama.6453]

1 hour ago, Pati.2438 said:

@Kodama.6453 Well its Bad that IT actually is an AA Chain cause it Hits for 3-4k each on range and is an aoe it surely need a Nerf. Eather hard DPS Nerf Or (and this would Made more sence to me since its a Kit ) let it Deal Harder dps but let it get a CD. Thats all what im sain. 

Kits are weapon replacements for engineer, it is the very reason why engineer has the least amount of weapons available as a class. If you want the auto attack to get the damage nerfed, fine for me (but then please also make it hit more consistent at range, how it currently is with the random spread and long travel time it just doesn't work well as what it is supposed to be).

But advocating for an auto attack to get a CD is just dumb. That's like if I would ask for the auto attack on warrior axe to get a CD, but then let it hit harder. Auto attacks are supposed to have no CDs and that includes kit auto attacks, period.

[Myror.7521]

@Kodama.6453 but an AA Chain that does 3-4k AoE dmg is Not dump? xD

 

I litterly only Said "the only way handle it would be". Yes I know that kits are Like engis second weapon set. But fact is also you could technicaly Play IT without any Kit and doesnt Miss something while on Things Like Warrior the weapons sweap means litterly everything (in PvP at least)

[JTGuevara.9018]

Here's a fix: remove stealth from the game.

Not going to happen, of course, but there is the fix if someone has the stomach for it.

Edited April 3, 2023 by JTGuevara.9018
correction

[Kodama.6453]

10 hours ago, Pati.2438 said:

@Kodama.6453 but an AA Chain that does 3-4k AoE dmg is Not dump? xD

And I literally said "nerf the damage, don't put a CD on it". So hard to grasp that concept? Auto attacks are auto attacks, they don't have CDs, period. Asking for an auto attack to get a CD is just admitting that you are clueless about even the most fundamental mechanics of this game.

[Kuma.1503]

11 hours ago, Pati.2438 said:

@Kodama.6453 but an AA Chain that does 3-4k AoE dmg is Not dump? xD

 

I litterly only Said "the only way handle it would be". Yes I know that kits are Like engis second weapon set. But fact is also you could technicaly Play IT without any Kit and doesnt Miss something while on Things Like Warrior the weapons sweap means litterly everything (in PvP at least)

Should we neuter SpB because it can technically just camp hammer and still farm newbies? This argument is flawed for so many reasons. 

Anyway. Nade autos don't need a CD. Engis are nade spamming  you on Warrior because Warrior naturally counters glassy engi builds like this. One wrong move, and you get stunlocked and blown up at full HP.  Nade (or mortar) kiting is how we pressure Warriors while preserving our precious stunbreak so we don't eat a face full of dirt. 

Both sides can claim the other player's class is toxic and needs to be deleted. Warriors because getting kited is obnoxious to play against. Engis because getting 100-0'd because you burned your one stunbreak into something with near-perma stability uptime that you litreally cannot stand on node against feels unfair. 

I don't think either one deserves to be deleted though. 

 

Edited April 4, 2023 by Kuma.1503

[Burnfall.9573]

On 4/3/2023 at 7:13 PM, JTGuevara.9018 said:

Here's a fix: remove stealth from the game.

Not going to happen, of course, but there is the fix if someone has the stomach for it.

 

I will give Anet one last chance in the next upcoming Balance patch. If Toxic Stealth Mechanic is not addressed once after all, I will no longer support the game and will no longer invest  in any expansions for the game including future (micro) expansions. 

 

I also encourage the WvW Community to take a serious stand against Toxic Stealth Mechanic,  Toxic Mechanics, Toxic Skills, Toxic Builds, Toxic Exploit Mechanics, Toxic Exploit Professions, Toxic  Thief Professional, Toxic Design and Toxic Balance.

 

Time Is Up For Guild Wars 2 Toxic Design To Be Put Behind Us, Walk Away  Once And For All!!

 

For 10 Years, WvW Has Been Disrespected With Empty Words, With False Hope, With Deceit Attention And With Deceit Care.

Time Is Up To Show Respect To The WvW Community!!

 

Edited April 5, 2023 by Burnfall.9573

[Myror.7521]

@Kuma.1503 you Miss read Sir. I do Not want it to be deleted I want it to be healthy for the game!

 

Besides this. We could claim that perma CC is also somewhat toxic for the Game. But at least you gain Like a thousand ways to Counter Play CC warrs (movement alone is one way then there comes Low dmg on CC skills besides of course Aegis, blind, weakness, stability and of course cc's with faster Cast time)

While grenades only counterplay maybe movement (dont Run in straigth Line so Not all nades Hit ya) is chanelled Blocks, projectile hate and for conditions weakness and maybe blinds and aegis (its more than one projectile so im Not so Sure If it would still Hit tho)

 

So the difference is simply a warr is ezy counterable while a scrapper is eather oneshot itself or oneshot you and cause He get superspeed the Second one is the Most Thing that happend.

 

[shion.2084]

9 hours ago, Pati.2438 said:

@Kuma.1503 you Miss read Sir. I do Not want it to be deleted I want it to be healthy for the game!

 

Besides this. We could claim that perma CC is also somewhat toxic for the Game. But at least you gain Like a thousand ways to Counter Play CC warrs (movement alone is one way then there comes Low dmg on CC skills besides of course Aegis, blind, weakness, stability and of course cc's with faster Cast time)

While grenades only counterplay maybe movement (dont Run in straigth Line so Not all nades Hit ya) is chanelled Blocks, projectile hate and for conditions weakness and maybe blinds and aegis (its more than one projectile so im Not so Sure If it would still Hit tho)

 

So the difference is simply a warr is ezy counterable while a scrapper is eather oneshot itself or oneshot you and cause He get superspeed the Second one is the Most Thing that happend.

 

No... the counter to grenades is a Soulbeast firing an unblockable ranged projectile at 1200 range and nuking your 15k health in a single longbow skill with beast bounce.

My point is you are definitely forgetting offensive counters.   Like a gun flame of 10K damage fired twice.   OR a 13k hit of spinal shivers on a class with 15k health.

Edited April 5, 2023 by shion.2084

[Kuma.1503]

10 hours ago, Pati.2438 said:

@Kuma.1503 you Miss read Sir. I do Not want it to be deleted I want it to be healthy for the game!

 

Besides this. We could claim that perma CC is also somewhat toxic for the Game. But at least you gain Like a thousand ways to Counter Play CC warrs (movement alone is one way then there comes Low dmg on CC skills besides of course Aegis, blind, weakness, stability and of course cc's with faster Cast time)

While grenades only counterplay maybe movement (dont Run in straigth Line so Not all nades Hit ya) is chanelled Blocks, projectile hate and for conditions weakness and maybe blinds and aegis (its more than one projectile so im Not so Sure If it would still Hit tho)

 

So the difference is simply a warr is ezy counterable while a scrapper is eather oneshot itself or oneshot you and cause He get superspeed the Second one is the Most Thing that happend.

 

You forgot ranged pressure. Especially if it comes from 1200 range or behind a wall of projectile blocks. If scrapper isn't getting impact savant they are paper. Think Scepter cata, Untamed, Soulbeast, or DH. 

It's also easily focused down. So your tele ganking Vindis/Heralds/Willbenders can have a field day just blowing it up. As a bonus, their unlockable damage after phase traversal goes right through Hammer 4. And they have enough mobility to keep pace with it and threaten a kill. 

Necro is also a great natural counter, but they're struggling right now. Giving them some love adds yet another counter to this build. 

 

Scrappers went for glass canon burst because they other playersyles were systematically nerfed into obscurity. Reminder that it was meant to be a bruiser spec, yet it's bruiser builds are underperforming right now. 

This build is an adaptation to the nerfs. We take away the strengths it still has left (superspeed and good burst damage), and people won't just... keep playing it in its "healthier" (read: overnerfed) state. They'll drop it and play something objectively more broken. 

 

The solution here isn't "nerf nades". It's "Make Scrapper and actual bruiser again".

And also nerf sneak gyro by giving it it's WvW version so they can't deliver their burst damage from stealth. That's the part of the build that you can argue is unhealthy.. In spite of the weaknesses it has. 

Edited April 5, 2023 by Kuma.1503

[Archer.4362]

What they have to do is nerf the way the grenades are thrown, looking at the enemy and that's it, nothing backwards. Would you like a ranger to throw the 2 bow backwards? right? that they shoot face and solved.

[Kuma.1503]

7 minutes ago, Archer.4362 said:

What they have to do is nerf the way the grenades are thrown, looking at the enemy and that's it, nothing backwards. Would you like a ranger to throw the 2 bow backwards? right? that they shoot face and solved.

Fine with me, so long as we give nades 1200 1500 range and make them impossible to miss. Gotta make both things equal. 

Edited April 5, 2023 by Kuma.1503

[Archer.4362]

the question is that the grenades do not have a cd and the 2 longbow does have a cd.

[Kuma.1503]

27 minutes ago, Archer.4362 said:

the question is that the grenades do not have a cd and the 2 longbow does have a cd.

I assume you're saying Greande autos don't have CDs. And you're comparing nade autos to LB 2. 

They're two completely different skills serving two functions. One is an auto attack that does far less damage, has far less range, and can miss. The other is a burst skill with 600 extra range that is typically paired with modifiers (such as Sic Em) to 100-0 targets from long range, and will cannot miss. 

No one is oneshotting you from long range with nade autos. They're doing it with Hammer 5 into Nade barrage into Nade 2-4-and 5. All of which does have a CD. 

If you want to compare nades to ranger longbow you need to consider all of the benefits longbow has over nades. Not just the benefits nades have over longbow. You also need to take the rest of the class in general into account. 

 

Edited April 5, 2023 by Kuma.1503

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

On 3/31/2023 at 1:49 PM, SleepyBat.9034 said:

One way to achieve the first option would be to make Sneak Gyro stationary but add additional effects.

It's a lot simpler than that.

If you really want to nerf the build, just revert some patching and make it so we can see the Sneak Gyro again.

That'd do the trick right there.