"Class Hate in WvW"

[DanAlcedo.3281]

https://www.pic-upload.de/view-33932658/RangervsNec.jpg.htmlIts funny because its true.

[Pepper.3901]

It's not funny, because it is true.

[Arimas.3492]

Even though zerg meta doesn't include things like engi/thief and ranger they still have their place. Engi gets discounted but we do have good builds for zergs which is one part i dont get. But for rangers and thieves they definitely have their place for helping, if not in zergs. There are builds for them that can work in zergs though. I've seen acro staff thief or druids do perfectly well in zergs.

Haven't seen much of soulbeast but maybe it will have another playstyle for wvw groups. Deadeye seems to do the same thing thief does now but at range, which is single target high damage. Holosmith though adds a ton of cleave and high damage skills so thats a plus for us engis.

[Samnang.1879]

All classes have a usefulness in wvw.

[Dawdler.8521]

At least when people spec scourge they cant spec deathly chill.

It's something :/

[Sovereign.1093]

everyone has a place.

[Jerry CCH.9816]

hate Condi Revtoo oop at wvw

[DanAlcedo.3281]

People seem to not understand it.In this pic the ranger(core) and the necro are on the same level of usefulness.The Ranger(core) needs alot of skill to match a noob Well Bomb Necro ( In a Zerg fight)

You can give an idiot the Well Bomb Build and tell him Faceroll when the Commander tells you to and it works.Give an idiot a Ranger(core) build and he will be nothing more than a wasted slot.

Thats the problem here.

In Pug Squads , you cant know the skill level of the player but you know his class.The chance that a Core Ranger has the skill level to match or surpasses a necro in usefulness is really low.Mostly because a skilled ranger(core) will probably has the IQ to understand that other classes start where his class(core) ends.

So YES a Ranger (we always talk about core ranger) CAN be usefull in WvW , but the chance to meet one is next to 0%.(OH and sorry i only mean Zerg fight Ranger are awesome in roaming)

[Strider Pj.2193]

Each class has a use in WvW. Just not in a large squad.

Havoc teams run well with medium armor toons, and as roamers, they rival many.

If you want to Zerg on a ranger or engi, likely it isn't going to happen unless you know the com well. Even then...

I think people forget that some classes aren't welcome in Raids, PvP and in some PvE metas. It's how the game is structured.

It's not hate.

It IS exclusionary.

[K THEN.5162]

If you're not playing scepter minstrel's thief, you're wvwing wrong

[DeceiverX.8361]

@DanAlcedo.3281 said:People seem to not understand it.In this pic the ranger(core) and the necro are on the same level of usefulness.The Ranger(core) needs alot of skill to match a noob Well Bomb Necro ( In a Zerg fight)

You can give an idiot the Well Bomb Build and tell him Faceroll when the Commander tells you to and it works.Give an idiot a Ranger(core) build and he will be nothing more than a wasted slot.

Thats the problem here.

In Pug Squads , you cant know the skill level of the player but you know his class.The chance that a Core Ranger has the skill level to match or surpasses a necro in usefulness is really low.Mostly because a skilled ranger(core) will probably has the IQ to understand that other classes start where his class(core) ends.

So YES a Ranger (we always talk about core ranger) CAN be usefull in WvW , but the chance to meet one is next to 0%.(OH and sorry i only mean Zerg fight Ranger are awesome in roaming)

And the ranger is astronomically more useful in smaller scale fights or fending on its own. A well-bomb necro that can win a 1v1 against a competent enemy needs to be way better than a longbow pewpew ranger.

Skill requirements of different builds for zerging should not be a basis of comparison of power.

[Jirayu.5834]

People actually hate Longbow Ranger in wvw. even they can do a lot of damage if they know what they are doing.Problem is Longbow Ranger is one of easiest class to start with. That mean tons of Longbow Rangers are newbie who have to idea how to wvw

And this going to happen with Deadeye soon.

[Dreddo.9865]

All classes can prove useful inside a blob but the question is what are the preferred classes - would a commander take a ranger/druid (not healer) leaving out a guardian or a necro? Or to put it better what would a blob relying on rangers and thieves do against a typical "guards,revs, necros and rest" composition? Win or ...provide bags?

About skill, yes necro doesn't require much skill to place marks or wells, but it requires a lot of game time experience to place them efficiently and of course, to protect themselves inside the havoc and not stay behind and die miserably. Also most ranger I encounter (and other similar kiting classes) they just burst and stealth or kite (repeating to your death) - I don't see any skill in this pattern of actions, just taking advantage of the vast terrain area.

[anduriell.6280]

@Strider Pj.2193 said:Each class has a use in WvW. Just not in a large squad.

Havoc teams run well with medium armor toons, and as roamers, they rival many.

If you want to Zerg on a ranger or engi, likely it isn't going to happen unless you know the com well. Even then...

I think people forget that some classes aren't welcome in Raids, PvP and in some PvE metas. It's how the game is structured.

It's not hate.

It IS exclusionary.

Still i don't get why it should be this way. I for once think all classes should be able to build to play any content in the game otherwise it's not play what you want but instead play what others tells you. Which makes even less sense when you realise we supposedly have 3 different ways to play for each class (core + specs)

[Dawdler.8521]

@anduriell.6280 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:Each class has a use in WvW. Just not in a large squad.

Havoc teams run well with medium armor toons, and as roamers, they rival many.

If you want to Zerg on a ranger or engi, likely it isn't going to happen unless you know the com well. Even then...

I think people forget that some classes aren't welcome in Raids, PvP and in some PvE metas. It's how the game is structured.

It's not hate.

It IS exclusionary.

Still i don't get why it should be this way. I for once think all classes should be able to build to play any content in the game otherwise it's not

play what you want

but instead

play what others tells you

. Which makes even less sense when you realise we supposedly have 3 different ways to play for each class (core + specs)

Not sure why that would be hard to get. Meta is a thing in all areas of the game. Unless you want all classes and build options to be perfectly identical its impossible to avoid. If someone says bring a healer to the zerg would you come on a thief in cleric gear and rely on shared venom leeches? Some things are plain worse than other options.

[Junkpile.7439]

Longbow ranger bestest. Just target enemy reaper. I am happy if i can ruin at least one enemy reaper fight. :D

[devastoscz.9851]

If you assume AOE zerging is everything in WvW, you're missing out on perhaps one of the funnest parts of the game mode.

I think having a smaller 5-10 man group as a pick team in larger zerg fights is extremely useful. That smaller group can decimate a backline fairly quickly if they're well coordinated, turning the tide of the fight for a losing team. Rangers, thieves, warriors, mesmers and engis are very proficient classes for this kind of job.

[Haematic.4913]

@DanAlcedo.3281 said:https://www.pic-upload.de/view-33932658/RangervsNec.jpg.htmlIts funny because its true.

Partially true.There's skill in large scale combat.There's skill in small scale combat.

Single target focus is still seeked out by commanders and WvW groups to focus down the opposing commanders. I can't tell you the amount of times I had to identify smaller groups or individual players who focused my commander tag and how detrimental those players are to large scale combat.

If you're dying to AoE skills in general as a "skilled" player you're probably not that skilled.

As a commander in large scale combat, one of the main objectives is to avoid AoE and to focus on low single target(s) or small groups of players at a time.

Assuming a play-style without really understanding all that goes into it is, maddening.

[ArchonWing.9480]

I think the AOE one needs to be much higher.

[Jana.6831]

@Dreddo.9865 said:All classes can prove useful inside a blob but the question is what are the preferred classes - would a commander take a ranger/druid (not healer) leaving out a guardian or a necro? Or to put it better what would a blob relying on rangers and thieves do against a typical "guards,revs, necros and rest" composition? Win or ...provide bags?

That is the problem here: Combos have been forgotten about since HoT. Rangers have always been a problem, but all other classes had their place. Nowadays you just click this boonshare and that group heal and this and that..

[Daniel.5428]

WwW should focus more on killing players with war machines and traps instead of stacking and using aoe. There is a lot of WvW content like cannons, balistas, traps etc. that is not even used.

[Cerby.1069]

class hatred is a community issue that the devs shouldnt bother worrying about. its not their fault their player base is so primitive.......but their game appeals and attracts primitive players........so ya ok mbe it is their fault.

creates a rather blurry line of thinking when you place that much onus on the creators to guide how players go about playing the game tho. i mean worldly events also set people up to react a certain way when presented with a choice ingame.

so for those of you who dont follow heres an example: its world war 3. ur taking a break playin ur game cause thats just how addictive escapism can be when u playin something so simplistic and mind~numbingly micro loot intensive. ur bound to be less nice to people ingame and vice versa with a war going on. the devs shouldnt be responsible for retroactively changing the game to promote nicer interactions, right? I mean its great if they did without ill effect but they shouldnt be held responsible. mainly due to how difficult the solution could be and how difficult it is to prepare for or predict such problems.safeguards should be made for the benefit of the company tho to prevent communities from outright destroying themselves and the game....but the company has no moral obligations when deciding what level of safeguard is chosen and/or if/when it activates.

@Sovereign.1093 said:everyone has a place.

everyone thumbs down. hahahha.-everyone makes a place - is a more apt description.

[Sovereign.1093]

@Cerby.1069 said:class hatred is a community issue that the devs shouldnt bother worrying about. its not their fault their player base is so primitive.......but their game appeals and attracts primitive players........so ya ok mbe it is their fault.

creates a rather blurry line of thinking when you place that much onus on the creators to guide how players go about playing the game tho. i mean worldly events also set people up to react a certain way when presented with a choice ingame.

so for those of you who dont follow heres an example: its world war 3. ur taking a break playin ur game cause thats just how addictive escapism can be when u playin something so simplistic and mind~numbingly micro loot intensive. ur bound to be less nice to people ingame and vice versa with a war going on. the devs shouldnt be responsible for retroactively changing the game to promote nicer interactions, right? I mean its great if they did without ill effect but they shouldnt be held responsible. mainly due to how difficult the solution could be and how difficult it is to prepare for or predict such problems.safeguards should be made for the benefit of the company tho to prevent communities from outright destroying themselves and the game....but the company has no moral obligations when deciding what level of safeguard is chosen and/or if/when it activates.

@Sovereign.1093 said:everyone has a place.

everyone thumbs down. hahahha.

-everyone makes a place -

is a more apt description.

everyone has a place. =)

[Sovereign.1093]

@Daniel.5428 said:WwW should focus more on killing players with war machines and traps instead of stacking and using aoe. There is a lot of WvW content like cannons, balistas, traps etc. that is not even used.

personal preference based on what is fun will win over what ought to be done though.

a mix of both worlds do work

[Nate.3927]

@Dreddo.9865 said:All classes can prove useful inside a blob but the question is what are the preferred classes - would a commander take a ranger/druid (not healer) leaving out a guardian or a necro? Or to put it better what would a blob relying on rangers and thieves do against a typical "guards,revs, necros and rest" composition? Win or ...provide bags?

About skill, yes necro doesn't require much skill to place marks or wells, but it requires a lot of game time experience to place them efficiently and of course, to protect themselves inside the havoc and not stay behind and die miserably. Also most ranger I encounter (and other similar kiting classes) they just burst and stealth or kite (repeating to your death) - I don't see any skill in this pattern of actions, just taking advantage of the vast terrain area.

I feel like knowing the map well enough to avoid "obstructed obstructed obstructed" is a skill in itself :tongue: