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Blocks and Reflects


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so, I've been doing a little WvW lately. Like always, I've been killing a great number of players in Zerg vs Zerg with no problems. HOWEVER, I did notice one thing: Rangers can deplete my whole HP and Life Force with a single skill (while wearing Berseker's gear). Now, the idea of a single-range skill being this powerful is idiotic, but I doubt they'll change it.

now, I'm not asking to nerf Rangers or any other profession/skill, my point here is exactly the same as before: WE have a mediocre DPS compared to other professions, yet our defense is null. Rangers for example can run Glass Canon builds without worrying for survival since they have a broken range, stealth, leaps and whatnot.

so, what I'm asking here is to give necro Blocks or Reflects to actually be competitive against those broken professions/skills and be able to roam for once. Maybe remove the beyond useless Damage Reduction on Infusing Terror or the pointless Protection on Spectral Armor and add blocks/reflects instead?

I already proved that Protection + Infusing Terror + 30 stacks of Carapace + Rise while inside Reper's Shroud is just worthless as a defense against anything that hit harder than a Moa.

Edited by Arianth Moonlight.6453
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The main problem here is Sic 'Em Soul Beast. It really should be limited by attacks (5 attacks would be reasonable) rather than turning the ranger into a heavy machine gun for 10s. 

Necro doesn't need blocks and evades, it needs a shroud defense that is more effective and consistent. 

Shroud defense scales poorly with shifts in the meta. In a burst meta shroud health is next to useless. As overall damage decreases shroud becomes extremely powerful, and necro's sustain is kept low to keep it from becoming unkillable.

Shroud needs a rework to make it less passive and prevent "shroud camping". The defensive should be decoupled from the offensive. And the damage reduction needs to scale better with burst metas.

A second profession skill that grants barrier and damage reduction for a short duration on a separate cooldown could work:

Death Shroud is now a duration based transform and no longer covers health with lifeforce.

Life Armor provides barrier and caps all incoming damage to 1000 per hit for 5 seconds.

The cooldown, barrier, and duration can be be adjusted independently of Death Shroud. Barrier disappears quickly making timing critical just like any other block.  

  • No more issues healing/supporting the necro while they are in shroud
  • No more being pushed out of shroud and losing all ability to deal damage
  • No more taking 30K+ damage in seconds completely negating your defense.

 

 

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There is a ton of counterplay to that scenario.

1. for beginners: soldier gear (WvW as a game mode does heavily favor that gear, you can buy it everywhere there), soldier gear does still enough damage to easily kill a glas canon soulbeast, even if you make a ton if mistakes, it fails against a bunker beast of course - rock, paper, scissors

2. for advanced players: spectral armor + shroud + speed rune + run and leap into the soulbeast; dodge the LB knockback

In general: have sigil of energy on both weaponsets, then you have a doubledodge before entering shroud and a third dodge in shroud (entering and leaving shroud is a weaponswap) additionally to your spectral armor LF generation in shroud while you are bursted; if this is not enough, then you simply are doing it wrong.

In general 2: if an encounter tries super hard to kite and burst you over and over again (spellbreakers with tether, thieves, many LB+GS soulbeasts etc.), stop chasing, turn around, leap in the opposite direction an look for another fight. But even this has become less of a problem since ANet lowered the spectral armor cooldwn to 30 seconds. If you play a decent build, you have to fail at chasing at least two times with your resources before getting into trouble. And this is a L2P issue then.

Edited by KrHome.1920
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To be fair. If i remember correctly ranger didn't receive any major nerfs in the past year in wvw. 

Even when every ranged Zerg spec got their damage reduced.

And I also don't get it, why ranger has a skill (lb5) that can hit people behind walls, and doesn't need line of sight.

They removed/changed so many of those skills, that it's really strange for me, that skill didn't get changed.

 

As for counterplay to soulbeast.

Depending on the build you are on:

Zerg scourge:

you are fodder. There's nothing you can do, unless the soulbeast decides to go melee for whatever reason.

Roaming harbinger: bring poison cloud

Reaper: hope that projectile destruction of shroud 2 works, and that the soulbeast doesn't know, that this projectile destruction only works for projectiles coming directly from the front.

 

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Your best friend against LB rangers is Corrosive Poison Cloud.

Then, like KrHome said, the smart combo Spectral Armor/Shroud tend to mitigate most of the damage for reaper and core.

There is the possibility to have minions bodyblocking if your opponent didn't trait it's LB to pierce.

For reaper, Death's charge is supposed to block projectiles in your path if we do believe the tooltip of the skill.

You can interupt the channel of the the skill with a well timed fear/pull.

Unfortunately blind isn't that great against channeled skills.

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19 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Your best friend against LB rangers is Corrosive Poison Cloud.

Then, like KrHome said, the smart combo Spectral Armor/Shroud tend to mitigate most of the damage for reaper and core.

There is the possibility to have minions bodyblocking if your opponent didn't trait it's LB to pierce.

For reaper, Death's charge is supposed to block projectiles in your path if we do believe the tooltip of the skill.

You can interupt the channel of the the skill with a well timed fear/pull.

Unfortunately blind isn't that great against channeled skills.

Signet of the Hunt - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

I guess the OP was referring to the one trick pony build that goes full glass + multipliers, then pops the signet and bursts. This will ignore poison cloud and also knock you out of your shroud 2 leap (which normally blocks projectiles). But it's only 10 attacks these days, which is totally dealable. If you see the passive of that signet on your encounter you have all information you need to prepare for when it's used.

And to be honest: In the last 12 months I can remember one single encounter where a soulbeast plewyer used the signet at such a perfect moment, that I ran into trouble.

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1 minute ago, KrHome.1920 said:

Signet of the Hunt - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

I guess the OP was referring to the one trick pony build that goes full glass + multipliers, then pops the signet and bursts. This will ignore poison cloud and also knock you out of your shroud 2 leap (which normally blocks projectiles). But it's only 10 attacks these days, which is totally dealable. If you see the passive of that signet on your encounter you have all information you need to prepare for when it's used.

And to be honest: In the last 12 months I can remember one single encounter where a soulbeast plewyer used the signet at such a perfect moment, that I ran into trouble.

Well, anyway, no amount of block/reflect added to the kit could change the outcome if it's the case.

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just to be clear, this is not about this particular Ranger build/skill.

if you're in a zerg vs zerg and a Ranger depletes almost all your health with one skill from a long distance while you're fighting other players, you'll have very little chance to survive because now you have almost no hp and no defense at all. Almost everyone else (well, more like literally everyone else) will pull invul, blocks, evades, reflects, leaps, stealth or just use some OP healing that restore their whole health.

with some blocks/reflects, we'll have some chance to get away, get to a better position, regain some health and maybe survive enough until all our skills are out of their massive CD.

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I read in this thread the same merry-go-round of tired arguments we always have in these necro threads. Like a clockwork.

It starts with a valid complaint about some intrinsic drawbacks necromancer has compared to other classes in the game.

This usually provokes a comment like "akshually, necro strong! you just have to..." followed by a laundry list of conditions to actually make this somehow work.

With this, the respondent oddly thinks he has actually adequately adressed the initial complaint, while he actually proved the point of the complainer: "when X and Y and Z, and when running this utility and this trait using this rune and when you got a tree to hide behind, then it's no problem (in about 50% of cases)". Do you guys see that this is not making the point you are trying to make?

 

And to adress another point necro's weakness mostly boils down to, imo:

it's all about the way the damage is dealt with. All other classes (do try to correct me on this) have a way of "not receiving" incoming damage for a certain duration. By that I mean to emphasize that it doesn't matter how many hits or how many players even attack them. All non-necro classes have a way of not receiving damage. For thief it's evades, teleports, invisibility (if you want to count that), for warrior it's blocks, just straight up immunity to damage, etc.. Guardian has blocks, mesmer has distortion effects... even Ranger has block and evades.

Only necro has nothing of the sort. Necro has to take every hit it is given. And that is why necro scales very poorly when facing more than 1 enemy. Other classes don't really mind that much. Eles literally don't even change their rotation when fighting against 1 or 5 enemies. Reflect is reflect, doesn't matter if it's 1 hit or 1000 hits. ALL get reflected. Now compare that to death shroud.

TL;DR: necro's intrinsic flaw is that it's way to "prevent" damage is to actually just swallow that damage, which doesn't work well in many cases.

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On 4/9/2023 at 2:18 PM, Seuchenherbst.2746 said:

it's all about the way the damage is dealt with. All other classes (do try to correct me on this) have a way of "not receiving" incoming damage for a certain duration. By that I mean to emphasize that it doesn't matter how many hits or how many players even attack them. All non-necro classes have a way of not receiving damage.

Well said.

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On 4/9/2023 at 8:18 PM, Seuchenherbst.2746 said:

And to adress another point necro's weakness mostly boils down to, imo:

it's all about the way the damage is dealt with. All other classes (do try to correct me on this) have a way of "not receiving" incoming damage for a certain duration. By that I mean to emphasize that it doesn't matter how many hits or how many players even attack them. All non-necro classes have a way of not receiving damage.

That shows exactly, why reaper isn't good in wvw zergs, and why a lot of guilds run some kind of warrior (spellbreaker, berserker), or sometimes willbender as dps instead.

Can you make it work? - yes

But it's much easier to pop an invulnerability skill, then deal your damage and get out safely.

Unlike reaper, that will just get punched out of shroud, even with spectral armor activated, if you misposition. Because shroud, spectral armor and shroud3 is still not enough if 15-50 people try to hit you.

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On 4/9/2023 at 2:18 PM, Seuchenherbst.2746 said:

I read in this thread the same merry-go-round of tired arguments we always have in these necro threads. Like a clockwork.

It starts with a valid complaint about some intrinsic drawbacks necromancer has compared to other classes in the game.

This usually provokes a comment like "akshually, necro strong! you just have to..." followed by a laundry list of conditions to actually make this somehow work.

With this, the respondent oddly thinks he has actually adequately adressed the initial complaint, while he actually proved the point of the complainer: "when X and Y and Z, and when running this utility and this trait using this rune and when you got a tree to hide behind, then it's no problem (in about 50% of cases)". Do you guys see that this is not making the point you are trying to make?

 

And to adress another point necro's weakness mostly boils down to, imo:

it's all about the way the damage is dealt with. All other classes (do try to correct me on this) have a way of "not receiving" incoming damage for a certain duration. By that I mean to emphasize that it doesn't matter how many hits or how many players even attack them. All non-necro classes have a way of not receiving damage. For thief it's evades, teleports, invisibility (if you want to count that), for warrior it's blocks, just straight up immunity to damage, etc.. Guardian has blocks, mesmer has distortion effects... even Ranger has block and evades.

Only necro has nothing of the sort. Necro has to take every hit it is given. And that is why necro scales very poorly when facing more than 1 enemy. Other classes don't really mind that much. Eles literally don't even change their rotation when fighting against 1 or 5 enemies. Reflect is reflect, doesn't matter if it's 1 hit or 1000 hits. ALL get reflected. Now compare that to death shroud.

TL;DR: necro's intrinsic flaw is that it's way to "prevent" damage is to actually just swallow that damage, which doesn't work well in many cases.

Theres a new thread complaining about how strong reaper because of chill of all things. Its all in perspective. 

One thing that has to always be taken into consideration is that the majority of players are not good at the game. As such their perspective of what is strong or not and how to generally deal with challenges are going to be a far cry different than the few people who are good at the game. There is the common argument of balancing around the common denominator but you can't really balance around lack of skill as much as it is not wise to heed suggestions from those that lack skill. It's kindof like asking the general chemistry freshmen students for advice on your PhD project. Good chances are that's not going to go well for you.

 

On 4/10/2023 at 5:06 PM, CafPow.1542 said:

see... a glass cannon typically has evades, immunity frames, invulns or blocks.

now let's get necromancer a glass cannon spec without all those things and call it harbinger, what could go wrong here?

lawl.

Harbinger was very strong too. Its still kindof strong now, just elementalist pushes it out of spvp and it never really was good for blobbing in wvw like many other classes aren't. 

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1 hour ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

One thing that has to always be taken into consideration is that the majority of players are not good at the game. As such their perspective of what is strong or not and how to generally deal with challenges are going to be a far cry different than the few people who are good at the game. There is the common argument of balancing around the common denominator but you can't really balance around lack of skill as much as it is not wise to heed suggestions from those that lack skill. It's kindof like asking the general chemistry freshmen students for advice on your PhD project. Good chances are that's not going to go well for you.

Yup, I'll file that under "akshually, necro strong!", if that's what you mean to say.

Edited by Seuchenherbst.2746
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