Is Renegade really going to be that bad...?

[Amityel.5324]

ye but we didnt ask for ranged condi weapon that sux you know :) renegade need survivebility or core rev need some love.....pain absorbtion should be insta and maybe lower energy cost both on weapon skills and ultility skills....then add some cleanses for example mally grandmaster pulsating persistence could remove and copy 3 condis on legend swap....

[Knighthonor.4061]

Hi I am some what scared. I need comfort. I feel Rev will have to wait another 2 years for next expansion.

[frayon.3984]

Why all the hate for SB? I get it 's a low on the duration when compared with the base of m/a, but still having runes of the krait + a smoldering sigil gets bleeds way up in the duration (45% without fury and the trait which goes off of fury 70% with) and helps boost the duration of the burns. We finally don't have to rely on sigil just to get a little bleed in our spec.It's base damage isn't bad either. Is it the best out there? Meh, it's not a power build which you're supposed to run with a SB it's condi. Want a power ranged weapon? Wait for another elite spec. I am rather excited for the shortbow, we barely if ever use our secondary weapon (staff or hammer) while fighting unless we absolutely need to break a break bar or have to range. Otherwise staff is used just for cleanse (if desperately needed) or for movement and nothing else. When wanting to range, I hate it because I am condi build base and hammer has no damaging conditions. SB fixes that greatly.

If you still want more burn over bleed, change the runes, get a sigil of malice to add 10% to everything. We're not even running the berserk runes anymore, the best for raids and condi right now is nightmare/trapper to get more out of our condi duration even in full vipers gear. Right now we are basically where the condi ranger were where they had to run the runes of the nightmare/trapper and now they get krait.

My point, don't knock a weapon before you move around what is on it as sigils. And please look at the spec as a whole. We get boosts which kalla's favor for bleeding. And you would take it for a condi spec because of the way it works with the rest of the spec. The top and bottom rows have other uses. If you want to maximize your dps take all of the middle row of the elite spec. You can spec such that you have high upkeep of fury which increases your bleeds by 25%. Taking invocation will allow for even more upkeep of fury.

SB has it's place. We get a ranged dps weapon for condi. It works and can output a lot of dps. Also, keep in mind we got to last test this pre launch. We don't know what we are getting come the 22nd.

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[Buran.3796]

@Kodiak.3281 said:

I guess we can't really complain, we did ask very loudly for a ranged condi weapon.

I disagree. We did ask for a ranged condi weapon, and ANet didn't bring us a ranged condi weapon.

Beacuse using the bow will be a net loss in terms of damage compared to the mace, with also a lot less utility or defense (both axe and off hand sword do provide cc and either a block or a condi spike). So they gave us a weapon with no use. Did we ask loudly a weapon with no use? I don't think so.

[Jthug.9506]

First of all the bleeding duration bonus trait was straight up broken on the beta weekend. I confirmed this with arc dps. So just fixing that alone should help the short bow. Second I can't think of any spec where ranged weapons are more dps than mele against a single target. That said the short bow wasn't TOO terrible when used effectively by forcing bleed to max out during the beta. Especially if you could get sb3 to work properly, that skill actually hit hard when it worked right, which was almost never. But I did get it to be a consistent opener against the elite mobs in the pvp staging area, and if you were clever with the rotation the SB was indeed quite effective, and even citadel bombardment had it's place there. Bottom line, let's wait and see what happens Friday instead of running around all chicken little. Personally I am getting pretty pumped for the drop.

I think of all the bosses in open world and fractals where you are forced to duck out of mele range for a bit and switching to short bow is going to be badass. Also having the piercing exploding attacks on lots of mobs will be glorious! I can see doing dragons' stand and such camped in kala and sb just rotating in citadel bombardment as often as possible. This is gonna be a good time!

[ScottBroChill.3254]

Ehh shortbow is just a poke weapon with basically skills from other bows with animations that make it so the arrows barely hit the target. There seems to be a good combo with the fire field and sevenshot, but the field needs like an extra second added to its duration so you can get the arrows through it easier. The opportunity to stack all that torment and burning might be decent, even if it will be useless in pvp do to moving targets. But it still doesn't make up for the fact that the spec is built like a glass cannon without the cannon.

[Taobella.6597]

it will be core for WvW .

[otto.5684]

@Buran.3796 said:

@Kodiak.3281 said:

I guess we can't really complain, we did ask very loudly for a ranged condi weapon.

I disagree. We did ask for a ranged condi weapon, and ANet didn't bring us a ranged condi weapon.

Beacuse using the bow will be a net loss in terms of damage compared to the mace, with also a lot less utility or defense (both axe and off hand sword do provide cc and either a block or a condi spike). So they gave us a weapon with no use. Did we ask loudly a weapon with no use? I don't think so.

To be fair, you would not expect a ranged condi weapon to out dps a melee one. The issue though is SB does not have any evades, mobility or a root. It is the only Rev weapon set (5 slots) with no block or evade. I think it is the only ranged weapon in the game without root, block or evade, beside DH LB.

The hope was it would be a functional PvP weapon, especially that taking Renegade gives up shield.

[frayon.3984]

@otto.5684 said:

@Buran.3796 said:

@Kodiak.3281 said:

I guess we can't really complain, we did ask very loudly for a ranged condi weapon.

I disagree. We did ask for a ranged condi weapon, and ANet didn't bring us a ranged condi weapon.

Beacuse using the bow will be a net loss in terms of damage compared to the mace, with also a lot less utility or defense (both axe and off hand sword do provide cc and either a block or a condi spike). So they gave us a weapon with no use. Did we ask loudly a weapon with no use? I don't think so.

To be fair, you would not expect a ranged condi weapon to out dps a melee one. The issue though is SB does not have any evades, mobility or a root. It is the only Rev weapon set (5 slots) with no block or evade. I think it is the only ranged weapon in the game without root, block or evade, beside DH LB.

The hope was it would be a functional PvP weapon, especially that taking Renegade gives up shield.

Even though we are loosing shield, the SB (once the trait is fixed) at least makes Rev more viable in PvE. I realize wanting to play Rev in pvp. I do anyway despite it not being the strongest and still will play herald in pvp if it is the stronger of the two elites for it. Not every elite spec will be viable everywhere. I would love renegade to be viable in pvp as well as pve. It just might not happen much like scrapper wasn't the meta for pve end game but was for pvp. The spec will be useful somewhere and right now it is leaning more towards pve and perhaps wvw than pvp.

I realize it is disappointing for those who only play one game type, but some classes have been in that situation since HoT. And I know rev hasn't been top at anything in very long time if at all.

We don't know how viable it will or will not be. The devs could very well make another pass at the renegade before Friday or they have already and we haven't seen it. At least we aren't being stuck with just hammer for ranged or locked in pure melee when running m/a and staff.

[Sylvyn.4750]

@Taobella.6597 said:it will be core for WvW .

The jury is still out on that until more testing is done...perhaps using the trait line but not channeling the legend itself.

[Einlanzer.1627]

@otto.5684 said:This a bit complicated.

SB was disappointing. It does not deal much damage. It was sluggish and with no survivablity tools. The only role it currently fills is attacking mobs in PvE where you must be at range.

If we switch to axe/mace things work out pretty well. It surely is an upgrade to condi damage, particularly in a raid environment. Though this is pretty much the same game play we currently have on live. So nothing new here... look at other elites and how they offer vastly different game plays from core and hot elites.

As for sPvP, renegade offers no tools to deal with condi, aside from grand master utility that reduce their damage. No blocks or evades. CC break on heal. No mobility tools. This makes it the worst legend to use in sPvP.

My biggest concern is that renegade fails to provide new forms of game play. It feels more of the same for condi build with a damage upgrade that works only in PvE environment. This problem extends way beyond energy or damage tuning.

Yes, correct. This is because it's mimicking what, for other classes, is core gameplay - a basic condi build with a melee (for cleave and deeps) and a ranged weapon (for safety) equipped. The problem is that most of what they gave Revenant in the form of Renegade should have been given to the core Revenant, and the elite spec should have followed a different and more unique concept.

It was a pretty tragic missed opportunity.

[Buran.3796]

@Jthug.9506 said:Second I can't think of any spec where ranged weapons are more dps than mele against a single target.

Guardian's scepter instantly comes to my mind. The two top current dps builds for PvE raid Guardians do use scepter. Deadeye's rifle, also.

Plus, our "ranged condi weapon" didn't have to be top notch in terms of damage: our staff does mediocre damage and is meta in almost every Revenant build because the tools that provide are extremely useful. We can argue about short bow's damage is better or worse but, where are the tools? Has defensive capabilities? Has mobility? Has cripple, chill, daze, stun or blind in any of their skills? No? Has only a weak aa and a knockdown, but we already had a (cheaper) area pull down in axe #5 with a 900 units range and (go figure) axe #4 has also a 900 unit range and chills!

As I said, a main hand pistol or ranged dagger with decent aa and two empty skills would have given use better service (because sword #4 and #5 are stronger than the ones in the shortbow).

[LucianDK.8615]

heard scorchrazor sb5 was pretty powerful.

[Zenith.7301]

@Buran.3796 said:

@Jthug.9506 said:Second I can't think of any spec where ranged weapons are more dps than mele against a single target.

Guardian's scepter instantly comes to my mind. The two top current dps builds for PvE raid Guardians do use scepter. Deadeye's rifle, also.

Plus, our "ranged condi weapon" didn't have to be top notch in terms of damage: our staff does mediocre damage and is meta in almost every Revenant build because the tools that provide are extremely useful. We can argue about short bow's damage is better or worse but, where are the tools? Has defensive capabilities? Has mobility? Has cripple, chill, daze, stun or blind in any of their skills? No? Has only a weak aa and a knockdown, but we already had a (cheaper) area pull down in axe #5 with a 900 units range and (go figure) axe #4 has also a 900 unit range and chills!

As I said, a main hand pistol or ranged dagger with decent aa and two empty skills would have given use better service (because sword #4 and #5 are stronger than the ones in the shortbow).

Deadeye rifle does horrible DPS. Nobody will use that weapon in serious PvE or PvP as daredevil is the most OP thief spec that has graced this game. Deadeyes will die pretty much immediately to any daredevil, guardian, or warrior that happens to look their way.

[Buran.3796]

^ I agree in which Deadeye won't replace current DD meta and yes the rifle damage over time is bad... But the spike damage is great and has two cripples, one immobilize, a shadow step and two skills with condi cleanses. Damage ISN'T the main drawback of Renegade's shortbow (albeit is weak), but the fact that any Revenant weapon you replace with sb has better utilities. Rev's hammer is a stronger and better designed peice of weaponry, and even then has very small use in PvP/roaming due it compromises your survability.