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[Competitive PVP] Virtuoso shatter, Design's perfection


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For starter, lemme just say that whoever designed that should be assigned to toilet cleaning duty for an entire year, wich is coincidently the same amount of time you allowed that atrocity without any fix.

 

What is the point of loosing  your illusions ( wich is a big  downside ) in order to gain only downside...

 

Every shatter outside of distortion now have a cast time, is cancelled ( with a cooldown ) every time you have to dodge, don't face the opponent, or when he goes behind you, or even on the side. I mean, i'am just amazed there's a guy who's actually paid to design that kind of mechanic, and i'am even more amazed at the fact that a bunch of people agreed on implementing this mechanic,  thinking that this is ok, but if i had to say what makes me think it's a design's perfection : having to dodge during a shatter's cast time, putting that shatter on CD while loosing 3 stack of blade thanks to physhic riposte... Dang, what a WONDER of a mechanic this is, probably even on par with the 7 wonders of the world, perfection at it's finest.

 

The fact every bladesong now gives so much downside without bringing anything  more makes me wonder what is the point of having that specialisation in the first place. There isn't any virtuoso competitive build in pvp, next to no one plays it in ranked, every other spec are straight up better ( condition and direct damage ), and some minor change like reduced shatter cooldown won't make the build more competitive by any means if we take into account that the current bladesong design is next to unplayable. The illusion specialisation gives reduced cooldown on shatter for every other specialisation, but is arguably bad for virtuoso due to the fact other specialisation have better synergies ( but that's just my opinion ) so you still end up having longer bladesong cooldown compared to shatter.

 

You get absolutly no benefit from playing bladesong, even worse, you get punished for it in almost every aspect 

 

- Longer animation compared to classic shatter skill

- They have cast time on them, making them weaker to juke/teleport effect, and very slow overall

-  It makes mesmer extremly easy to target since you need to cast every bladesong (makes for a more stationary gameplay compared to the usual shatter that can be used while dodging ), aditionnaly you are way easier to track/burst down since you have no illusion.

- They are longer to build while not giving more damage ( 5 blade compared to 3 illusion ) and thus, forces you to play specific ability/talent, wich ends up into a restrictive building.

 

The dagger is an abomination of a weapon. Condition build are worse as virtuso compared to other specialisation, same goes for direct damage. So in the end, there isn't a single argument in favor of virtuoso that would make it a smart choice to play in PVP.

 

It's been roughly a year and a half since End of dragon's release and NOTHING has been done outside of minor tunning for virtuoso, no fixing, no assesment in regard to the virtuoso representation in the PVP meta, absolutly no change made in that regard...

 

Do yourself a favor and remove those cast time on bladesong that are completely useless and are currently preventing the specialisation from ever getting a spot in competitive PVP. Allow more flexibility threw ability/build for more build representation.  It's one thing to add a specialisation when you release a new extention, but if you actually don't ponder enough to implement it in many aspects ( build integration, spell synergy, weapon relevence ), you end up with something that is wonky at best, and doesn't bring anything more to the class in term of depth. 

 

In the end, i know that PVE/WvW is where the people are, and most of your tunning are in that regard, but even if the minority of your player enjoy the mode, PVP is a very competitive environment that needs frequent balancing. A bad specialisation cannot go unchecked for nearly a year and a half.

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I think you are misinformed on how good virtuoso can be. Yes, the bladesongs need the ability to be used from behind, but that’s about it. Its a ranged shatter and having a cast time is fine. It’s a perfectly acceptable profession in ranked. In competitive it’s too slow compared to other professions and there are better builds for bunkering. 
 

Does virtuoso need some design changes? Yes, but it’s not as bad as you are making it out to be.

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Quote

I think you are misinformed on how good virtuoso can be. Yes, the bladesongs need the ability to be used from behind, but that’s about it. Its a ranged shatter and having a cast time is fine. It’s a perfectly acceptable profession in ranked. In competitive it’s too slow compared to other professions and there are better builds for bunkering. 
 

Does virtuoso need some design changes? Yes, but it’s not as bad as you are making it out to be.

It's not just about being able to cast it from the back,

You can't cast it from the side in many cases, and mostly you cannot use bladesong while dodging compared to shatter, and i think that all of that makes it extremly bad. 

 

If you add up all the downside bladesong gives

> Slower gameplay

> Longer animation

> Bad shatter design

> Cast on shatter

All of that makes for a very slow and stationnary gameplay, wich can be punished and abused by many good player/specialisation.

 

On the other hand, you're talking about "range shatter" and totally exclude the fact other weapon than dagger might actually be better ( gameplay/synergy wise ), like sword.

Edited by Macmoarning.3208
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4 hours ago, FrownyClown.8402 said:

I think you are misinformed on how good virtuoso can be

That alone deserve a huge facepalm.

I'v played for a while virtuoso and against them, cant find how virtuoso can be good at anything, aside from allowing bad players being way harder to kill than they are should be when playing anything else.

Whatever you want to do with virtuoso, you can find something else that does it way better. 

Edited by semak.7481
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5 hours ago, FrownyClown.8402 said:

I think you are misinformed on how good virtuoso can be.

I think he's being far too kind to that abomination of a spec. At the end of the day we should just accept the simple truth, Virtuoso was designed by a PvE player for PvE players. Now, the designer's takes about PvE tended to be real kittening bad too, but that's besides the point, and he left the game anyway. Virtuoso is not meant to be used in PvP, literally find any other spec and call it a day.

Edited by Terrorhuz.4695
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Just here to remind people about the discord leaks of specific balance leads stating they do not want ANY variation of Memser viable nor optimal in "competitive" game modes. One of them was one who actually designed the Virtuoso Elite while the other failed to sell it in the beta streams. The game is struggling to retain and pick up new players even with Steam and lack of content is not the reason, but anyways back to Lost Ark for my competitive PVP fix.

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8 hours ago, Macmoarning.3208 said:

What is the point of loosing  your illusions ( wich is a big  downside ) in order to gain only downside...

So you can roll a diaper trainer wheel class that, although it lacks proper chase potential to secure kills, it is virtually unkillable if you're paying attention and disengaging properly.

It's not to say that this is optimal for a great conquest build, but this does accurately describe the tradeoff.

Edited by Trevor Boyer.6524
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On 4/5/2023 at 11:05 PM, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

I think he's being far too kind to that abomination of a spec. At the end of the day we should just accept the simple truth, Virtuoso was designed by a PvE player for PvE players. Now, the designer's takes about PvE tended to be real kittening bad too, but that's besides the point, and he left the game anyway. Virtuoso is not meant to be used in PvP, literally find any other spec and call it a day.

Idk man it has a very good niche, for example at one time Mesmers were complaining that they couldn't do kitten vs necro and most of the reason was that the clones just feed life force to the necro, free health and damage, but vs virtuoso you have to treat it like a warrior and avoid it since you can't scale vs it, no hits , no LF, no health, no damage. There is also the thing with the blades that you can stock up and gank people with, but at the same time they messed up with it cause it is not a mobile spec but a tank spec. To me the idea about the spec is good, but they messed around too much with mesmer and made it Egg timer profession( pick a fight and wait till it goes through all the defense skills and then you can start the fight 30 seconds in) on all specs, which would have been fine if that was the mesmer thing but they made half the roaster of professions do the same which is tedious.   

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On 4/6/2023 at 8:05 AM, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

I think he's being far too kind to that abomination of a spec. At the end of the day we should just accept the simple truth, Virtuoso was designed by a PvE player for PvE players. Now, the designer's takes about PvE tended to be real kittening bad too, but that's besides the point, and he left the game anyway. Virtuoso is not meant to be used in PvP, literally find any other spec and call it a day.

@Macmoarning.3208 I mean that is your answer, it has some uses in PvP primarily WvW (like Mirage). Generally, the only Meta Mesmer in sPvP is Chronomancer and that's about it.

What you want in sPvP and also in WvW Zergs is jack of all trade's elites; something very flexible given the scenario. What is bad in these game modes is cheese builds or one trick pony elites, Virtuoso is definitely that.
Check out the one-shot Confusion builds for F2 on YouTube.

Edited by Mell.4873
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On 4/6/2023 at 9:48 AM, Jojo.6590 said:

Just here to remind people about the discord leaks of specific balance leads stating they do not want ANY variation of Memser viable nor optimal in "competitive" game modes. One of them was one who actually designed the Virtuoso Elite while the other failed to sell it in the beta streams. The game is struggling to retain and pick up new players even with Steam and lack of content is not the reason, but anyways back to Lost Ark for my competitive PVP fix.

I'm fairly certain the games popularity is increasing not decreasing.

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3 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

I'm fairly certain the games popularity is increasing not decreasing.

Want to track by 3-month windows. Not monthly as currently, it is still not consistent as you can see from the link.  GW2 spiked at 8.2k in September 2022. However, it is now down to 5.5k (total not consistently active, this is sitting around 1-3k)  as of Match 30th 2023.

Given this changes when there are and are no content drops. However, a year out of an expansion with WvW and PVP as the two major game modes other than strikes, raids, and legendaries to keep people interested is rough. Don't get me wrong 5.5k is still good, but the drop for just a year is what is the red flag (about 3k). And again this is just the number of people who've downloaded/played through Steam, not people who are constantly staying which is why you need to look at the data in quarters. Which is steadily decreasing. The current 24-hour peak at 4.7k while the highest peak was 8.3k seven months ago is a massive loss from a business standpoint.

A healthy system of balance is needed, a good way to see if balance is healthy is by looking at what classes are meta and how often the meta changes for each game mode. This has not been changing much in the way of WVW and PVP while with minor changes in PVE. 

 

Link:

Steam Charts GW2

 

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On 4/5/2023 at 11:01 AM, Macmoarning.3208 said:

For starter, lemme just say that whoever designed that should be assigned to toilet cleaning duty for an entire year, wich is coincidently the same amount of time you allowed that atrocity without any fix.

 

What is the point of loosing  your illusions ( wich is a big  downside ) in order to gain only downside...

 

Every shatter outside of distortion now have a cast time, is cancelled ( with a cooldown ) every time you have to dodge, don't face the opponent, or when he goes behind you, or even on the side. I mean, i'am just amazed there's a guy who's actually paid to design that kind of mechanic, and i'am even more amazed at the fact that a bunch of people agreed on implementing this mechanic,  thinking that this is ok, but if i had to say what makes me think it's a design's perfection : having to dodge during a shatter's cast time, putting that shatter on CD while loosing 3 stack of blade thanks to physhic riposte... Dang, what a WONDER of a mechanic this is, probably even on par with the 7 wonders of the world, perfection at it's finest.

 

The fact every bladesong now gives so much downside without bringing anything  more makes me wonder what is the point of having that specialisation in the first place. There isn't any virtuoso competitive build in pvp, next to no one plays it in ranked, every other spec are straight up better ( condition and direct damage ), and some minor change like reduced shatter cooldown won't make the build more competitive by any means if we take into account that the current bladesong design is next to unplayable. The illusion specialisation gives reduced cooldown on shatter for every other specialisation, but is arguably bad for virtuoso due to the fact other specialisation have better synergies ( but that's just my opinion ) so you still end up having longer bladesong cooldown compared to shatter.

 

You get absolutly no benefit from playing bladesong, even worse, you get punished for it in almost every aspect 

 

- Longer animation compared to classic shatter skill

- They have cast time on them, making them weaker to juke/teleport effect, and very slow overall

-  It makes mesmer extremly easy to target since you need to cast every bladesong (makes for a more stationary gameplay compared to the usual shatter that can be used while dodging ), aditionnaly you are way easier to track/burst down since you have no illusion.

- They are longer to build while not giving more damage ( 5 blade compared to 3 illusion ) and thus, forces you to play specific ability/talent, wich ends up into a restrictive building.

 

The dagger is an abomination of a weapon. Condition build are worse as virtuso compared to other specialisation, same goes for direct damage. So in the end, there isn't a single argument in favor of virtuoso that would make it a smart choice to play in PVP.

 

It's been roughly a year and a half since End of dragon's release and NOTHING has been done outside of minor tunning for virtuoso, no fixing, no assesment in regard to the virtuoso representation in the PVP meta, absolutly no change made in that regard...

 

Do yourself a favor and remove those cast time on bladesong that are completely useless and are currently preventing the specialisation from ever getting a spot in competitive PVP. Allow more flexibility threw ability/build for more build representation.  It's one thing to add a specialisation when you release a new extention, but if you actually don't ponder enough to implement it in many aspects ( build integration, spell synergy, weapon relevence ), you end up with something that is wonky at best, and doesn't bring anything more to the class in term of depth. 

 

In the end, i know that PVE/WvW is where the people are, and most of your tunning are in that regard, but even if the minority of your player enjoy the mode, PVP is a very competitive environment that needs frequent balancing. A bad specialisation cannot go unchecked for nearly a year and a half.

It's only 10 years too late that anet decided that mesmer needed a spec that DIDN'T have ungodly obnoxious mechanics. Now if only they would go back and change core mesmer, chrono and mirage so that they aren't kitten, we would be in business.

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3 hours ago, Jojo.6590 said:

Want to track by 3-month windows. Not monthly as currently, it is still not consistent as you can see from the link.  GW2 spiked at 8.2k in September 2022. However, it is now down to 5.5k (total not consistently active, this is sitting around 1-3k)  as of Match 30th 2023.

Given this changes when there are and are no content drops. However, a year out of an expansion with WvW and PVP as the two major game modes other than strikes, raids, and legendaries to keep people interested is rough. Don't get me wrong 5.5k is still good, but the drop for just a year is what is the red flag (about 3k). And again this is just the number of people who've downloaded/played through Steam, not people who are constantly staying which is why you need to look at the data in quarters. Which is steadily decreasing. The current 24-hour peak at 4.7k while the highest peak was 8.3k seven months ago is a massive loss from a business standpoint.

A healthy system of balance is needed, a good way to see if balance is healthy is by looking at what classes are meta and how often the meta changes for each game mode. This has not been changing much in the way of WVW and PVP while with minor changes in PVE. 

 

Link:

Steam Charts GW2

 

Your timeframe is too small, this current expansion has drastically increased the player count more than any other content drop besides the launch of the game.

I found two websites, but the results are all over the place. They seem to paint a picture of it not increasing or decreasing.

Guild Wars 2 5 Year Subscriber Stats Server Population & Player Count - MMO Populations (mmo-population.com)

Guild Wars 2 Live Player Count and Statistics (activeplayer.io)

 

Seem like we did lose a lot of players during Icebrood Saga but gained majority back at EoD's launch.

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9 hours ago, Vancho.8750 said:

Idk man it has a very good niche, for example at one time Mesmers were complaining that they couldn't do kitten vs necro

There is one thing necromancers have historically always been afraid of, even at their peak, and that is a mesmer crazy enough to take a greatsword. I believe countering necromancers has always been the one thing I could always do regardless of the meta. There's other stuff existing that just prevents mesmer from being effective; stuff like thieves (backstab until you die and there's NOTHING you can do about that) and guardians (in teamfight they deny everything you do, and no amount of boonrip can keep up with ther boon vomit)

*turns notifications off*

Edited by Terrorhuz.4695
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18 minutes ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

They need to be usable without a target!!! Actually F3 already is, but not F1 or F2 for some idiotic reason!!!

So, the other bladesongs will miss all the time like F3?

Brilliant idea my friend! /s

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1 hour ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

I mean the bladesongs arent even better then core shatters, while being long cast time projectiles vs instant aoe.
Entire virtuoso specialization is basically ripping all of the mesmer mechanics away from mesmer and in return you get OP passives in the traitline.

All you get a is band-aid fix to be able to even use "new shatters", without aegis + PR, you wont be able to play garbageuoso

Edited by semak.7481
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Losing illusions is kind of an upside. 

You don't completely lose your resource if the target dies. You can prestack 5 blades before an engagement. 

SpB can't farm clones for free full counter procs. Thieves don't get free cloak and daggers. Rangers don't get guaranteed Lb 3 stealth. ect. 

 

I will say though, the daze bladesong is especially screwed over by the new system. It's trying to be a quick interrupt daze, but the long delay ruins that functionality. You could justify making it a stun instead. At the very least, have it stun at 5 blades. 

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He had me in the thread title and the first sentence then he started talking about how losing illusions was a downside. Self shatter/instant procs I can understand but-

1 hour ago, Kuma.1503 said:

I will say though, the daze bladesong is especially screwed over by the new system. It's trying to be a quick interrupt daze, but the long delay ruins that functionality. You could justify making it a stun instead. At the very least, have it stun at 5 blades. 

 

I like this, but distortion balance first. 

 

On 4/5/2023 at 5:48 PM, Jojo.6590 said:

Just here to remind people about the discord leaks of specific balance leads stating they do not want ANY variation of Memser viable nor optimal in "competitive" game modes. 

 

Ugh. Can we get devs that want people to not be excluded from content based on the profession they pick please? Thanks. Mesmer has a place here, Virtuoso has all of the foundations to be an engaging spec to use competitively. All you need is a smidge of wit in balance direction. Same for Mirage. 

 

On 4/5/2023 at 4:05 PM, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

I think he's being far too kind to that abomination of a spec. At the end of the day we should just accept the simple truth, Virtuoso was designed by a PvE player for PvE players. Now, the designer's takes about PvE tended to be real kittening bad too, but that's besides the point, and he left the game anyway. Virtuoso is not meant to be used in PvP, literally find any other spec and call it a day.

 

I still hold out hope that one day someone will say "hm, this can be a roamer" and we will find virt not tanky but speedy. Maybe we can get a portal cd change in there too. 

 

 

Edited by Azure The Heartless.3261
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2 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Losing illusions is kind of an upside. 

You don't completely lose your resource if the target dies. 

SpB can't farm clones for free full counter procs. Thieves don't get free cloak and daggers. Rangers don't get guaranteed Lb 3 stealth. ect. 

You forgot about phantasms. 

2 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

I will say though, the daze bladesong is especially screwed over by the new system. It's trying to be a quick interrupt daze, but the long delay ruins that functionality. You could justify making it a stun instead. At the very least, have it stun at 5 blades.

F3 is especially f**kd because its 1 hit instead of many dazes (which would have much better synergy with domination, on daze vulnerability, possibly interrupting a few skills, removing additional boons) also consuming ALL blades for something that never lands, making it LAND would be a good start (reworking virtuoso entirely is even better! )

Edited by semak.7481
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45 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

 

I like this, but distortion balance first. 

Ugh. Can we get devs that want people to not be excluded from content based on the profession they pick please? Thanks. Mesmer has a place here, Virtuoso has all of the foundations to be an engaging spec to use competitively. All you need is a smidge of wit in balance direction. Same for Mirage. 

 

 

Agreed and thank you! 

Signet of Illusions needs to be looked at. It reset all shatters minus continuum split. This has caused many of the issues people still complain about with Mirage ("endless distortion") as well as with Virtuoso. It currently rewards the Memser for wasting and not correctly timing their defensive shatters while punishing the other person for correctly baiting out these shatters.  On top of this Virt needs to lose blade renewal if it is keeping distortion as a shatter. I prefer if we go this route because otherwise Virt will be forced to take blade renewal losing two utility slots (one for blink) and reducing build diversity. 

Edited by Jojo.6590
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3 hours ago, Jojo.6590 said:

Agreed and thank you! 

Signet of Illusions needs to be looked at.

Lost count of how many times I said that, but Signet of Illusions should get the same treatment I proposed for cata's elite. As in: recharges a flat amount of seconds for shatters (make it 15s, 20s, IDK). F1 is refunded entirely, F2 is refunded entirely, F3 is refunded for the most part and F4 has still some way to go, so you can't chain several defensives in a row.

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23 hours ago, Jojo.6590 said:

A healthy system of balance is needed, a good way to see if balance is healthy is by looking at what classes are meta and how often the meta changes for each game mode. This has not been changing much in the way of WVW and PVP while with minor changes in PVE. 

 

That's my problem with NCsoft games, every time the pvp ends up dying, balancing  are very rare, or even close to inexistant. And i'am not even salty about virtuoso tbh, just came back after a few years hiatus, bought EoD, played all the class, all the specs to see what's new and virtuoso felt like a joke to me, but what amazes me the most is the fact they won't do anything to change that in a timely manner.

 

In the end, PVE is what makes money sadly, and exact same thing hapenned in Blade and soul, and now there's like 50 time the same class in the the top 50 pvp. Not saying it's the same on GW2, but just that class disparity never was  a priority for them PVP wise, and for that you only need to look at the pace of their updates, if they were as consistant with it that they are at fixing minor bug animation, the game would still be very popular

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