Harbinger's flawed design

[Doctor Hide.6345]

Just now, Lily.1935 said:

So i couldn't find much of anything For a gunslinger theme when I was googling it. its a pretty barren theme, especially when we add the "Dark" aspect to it. So what would make a Dark gunslinger to you?

     A Dark Gunslinger is one who uses pistols obviously, but they tend to tap into the more darker/demonic energies. So with Harbinger in design, I would make some of the potions like you mentioned drinkable only. The potions would essentually be essence of Dark Demonic energy you consuming. When you enter shroud, basically it would be similar to how it is now, but with two pistols of course, but you would look more demon-ish with horns and tail. Your bullets would be more corrupting curses kind of like it is currently. Stuff along that line in shroud form. It would also consume the Blight like we do now for another burst of essence gaining.

[Lily.1935]

2 minutes ago, Doctor Hide.6345 said:

     A Dark Gunslinger is one who uses pistols obviously, but they tend to tap into the more darker/demonic energies. So with Harbinger in design, I would make some of the potions like you mentioned drinkable only. The potions would essentually be essence of Dark Demonic energy you consuming. When you enter shroud, basically it would be similar to how it is now, but with two pistols of course, but you would look more demon-ish with horns and tail. Your bullets would be more corrupting curses kind of like it is currently. Stuff along that line in shroud form. It would also consume the Blight like we do now for another burst of essence gaining.

So like they are now but more demony? I mean, I did put in the Magnum Opus trait which transformed the pistol skill 2 to fire 3 more shots and summoning a transmutation circle around your feet when you drink an elixir for visual flair.

[Doctor Hide.6345]

3 minutes ago, Lily.1935 said:

So like they are now but more demony? I mean, I did put in the Magnum Opus trait which transformed the pistol skill 2 to fire 3 more shots and summoning a transmutation circle around your feet when you drink an elixir for visual flair.

I was going to edit mine, but yes, you did which was close. I was going to say that is where the Alchemy would come in with the transmutation circles. Except, you are just transmuting yourself into a Demon form instead. So it is very similar,  I just focused more on the Demon side of it I guess and more pistol use.

Edited April 21, 2023 by Doctor Hide.6345

[Lily.1935]

1 minute ago, Doctor Hide.6345 said:

I was going to edit mine, but yes, you did which was close. I was going to say that is where the Alchemy would come in with the transmutation circles. Except, you are just transmuting yourself into a Demon form instead. So it is very similar,  I just focused more on the Demon side of it I guess and more pistol use.

I mean, the theme of the spec is about basically drinking dragon magic cool-aid. I would actually really like a Demon themed necromancer, but given the lore of GW2, that might be better on a new spec. Its suggested necromancer magic and demon magic come from the same place. Negative energies. Shroud itself is already pretty similar to what we see with demons as they are in GW2. Many demons are shadow creatures while some have fleshy forms their fleshy forms are often somewhat similar to necromancer minions. We see this is the case with the Stygains in the Domain of Anguish.

The necromancer is already fairly demonic. And I'd like to see a full diabolist elite spec for sure. one that summons Demons as minions, but that's a bit of a different theme from the dark gunslinger.

[Doctor Hide.6345]

1 minute ago, Lily.1935 said:

I mean, the theme of the spec is about basically drinking dragon magic cool-aid. I would actually really like a Demon themed necromancer, but given the lore of GW2, that might be better on a new spec. Its suggested necromancer magic and demon magic come from the same place. Negative energies. Shroud itself is already pretty similar to what we see with demons as they are in GW2. Many demons are shadow creatures while some have fleshy forms their fleshy forms are often somewhat similar to necromancer minions. We see this is the case with the Stygains in the Domain of Anguish.

The necromancer is already fairly demonic. And I'd like to see a full diabolist elite spec for sure. one that summons Demons as minions, but that's a bit of a different theme from the dark gunslinger.

     Yeah, I would like that as well to be honest as a separate elite. As for Harbinger and Dark Gunslinger in general, you basically need the guns to be a Dark Gunslinger which is why I want it in the shroud form. You can use the guns to create the transmutation spells in front of the barrel before it fires, and that would be ok in my book because it is still a magical gunslinger which is what the Dark Gunslinger is. They just tapped into darker energies for magic bullet attacks.

[Lily.1935]

18 minutes ago, Doctor Hide.6345 said:

     Yeah, I would like that as well to be honest as a separate elite. As for Harbinger and Dark Gunslinger in general, you basically need the guns to be a Dark Gunslinger which is why I want it in the shroud form. You can use the guns to create the transmutation spells in front of the barrel before it fires, and that would be ok in my book because it is still a magical gunslinger which is what the Dark Gunslinger is. They just tapped into darker energies for magic bullet attacks.

Transmutation circles in front of the barrel as you fire it would be really cool visually.

[Doctor Hide.6345]

3 minutes ago, Lily.1935 said:

Transmutation circles in front of the barrel as you fire it would be really cool visually.

     Exactly, and it would fit the Alchemist theme as well. Two Birds one barrel. 

[sdaugherty.1984]

13 hours ago, Lily.1935 said:

So i couldn't find much of anything For a gunslinger theme when I was googling it. its a pretty barren theme, especially when we add the "Dark" aspect to it. So what would make a Dark gunslinger to you?

Well...   The whole idea of a Dark Gunslinger sounds cool but I find it hard to relate to the Necromancer theme. I get the game designers were trying to come up with something new and innovative but as many of us have stated in the past a gunslinger works so much better with the Hunter/thief persona.

The common definition of a Necromancer is.. 

 

 Necromancy (/ˈnɛkrəmænsi/)^[1][2] is the practice of magical sorcery involving communication with the dead by summoning their spirits as apparitions or visions, or by resurrection for the purpose of divination; imparting the means to foretell future events; discovery of hidden knowledge; “returning a person to life”, or to use the dead as a weapon.

 

 That purpose of divination part is where the name Harbinger comes from. I'm sure gunslinger idea was just an artistic thought searching for something new and innovative Does it work? Well,  I don't think so, because it gets away from the spooky origin of the necromancer theme. I think the class would have been better served if they would have stuck to a gothic theme of a dark magic undertaker or embalmer and possibly played up more on the use of a new type of ghost minion?  I also think the ghostly spirit theme is not represented enough in the necromancer class. They need to think more classic spooky, less western cowboy.

 

[OStork.9534]

I only just returned recently so I haven't played enough of harbinger to know how the abilities feel outside of the golem room 

 

But as someone that started the game as a necro, the thing that jumps out to me the most about Harbinger's design is how I wish the potions worked more like Engineer's kits or maybe more like Firebrand's book feature

 

I see the dark alchemist fantasy as a character drinking a strange concoction and then transforming themselves and their abilities like some mad doctor experimenting on themselves. Especially when I see shroud not offering the extra life like in Reaper, it makes sense that each vial they drink would be a separate 'fake shroud', almost like they are trying to use science to tap into the 'other side'. Blight as a mechanic would make you more brittle as you 'overdose' but could also up your damage somehow as some risk-reward thing. 

 

[The Boz.2038]

Blight-reduces-health must go. Hardcore go. Deleted.
Removing blight for any reason other than disengage/heal/cleanse/stunbreak also, gone. It is not an interesting mechanic or conundrum in any situation.

[Lily.1935]

Something to note. The changes to Blight build up in shroud does improve Harbinger and I think its a step in the right direction. I personally feel that the Adept traits should dictate how you generate blight so you can be more interactive with it and septic and wicked corruption's percentage boost should be rolled into a minor trait like Corrupted talent to open up some more build freedom. But even this tiny bit of extra freedom is a breath of fresh air.

Hopefully in June Arena net will address many of the other complaints I and other's have. Thinking on it I do think I'd much prefer blight to be unremovable except maybe through a Grandmaster trait and I'd honestly prefer the hit to the health pool to go back to 50% the way it was in Beta 1. But that's a controversial opinion.

[Nimon.7840]

3 hours ago, Lily.1935 said:

Something to note. The changes to Blight build up in shroud does improve Harbinger and I think its a step in the right direction. I personally feel that the Adept traits should dictate how you generate blight so you can be more interactive with it and septic and wicked corruption's percentage boost should be rolled into a minor trait like Corrupted talent to open up some more build freedom. But even this tiny bit of extra freedom is a breath of fresh air.

Hopefully in June Arena net will address many of the other complaints I and other's have. Thinking on it I do think I'd much prefer blight to be unremovable except maybe through a Grandmaster trait and I'd honestly prefer the hit to the health pool to go back to 50% the way it was in Beta 1. But that's a controversial opinion.

I kinda doubt, there will be any other major reworks in June other than giving deadeye quickness.

What I don't understand of this balance patch is, why they only chose to buff reaper instead of core Necro.

Well they could still buff core weapons, since I doubt, they will outclass GS, to make power harb a thing.

 

Cause there's still something called "power harbinger" and even though it's basically unplayable, nothing really gets done for it.

That might mean, that we will be seeing a rework to harbinger, but could also mean, that it's supposed to be as it is - basically a meme build.

 

Dont get me wrong. It's great that power Necro will finally be in the normal range of very good dps builds, at least dps wise.

 

[Lily.1935]

On 4/25/2023 at 3:11 AM, Nimon.7840 said:

I kinda doubt, there will be any other major reworks in June other than giving deadeye quickness.

What I don't understand of this balance patch is, why they only chose to buff reaper instead of core Necro.

Well they could still buff core weapons, since I doubt, they will outclass GS, to make power harb a thing.

 

Cause there's still something called "power harbinger" and even though it's basically unplayable, nothing really gets done for it.

That might mean, that we will be seeing a rework to harbinger, but could also mean, that it's supposed to be as it is - basically a meme build.

 

Dont get me wrong. It's great that power Necro will finally be in the normal range of very good dps builds, at least dps wise.

 

Although I think your skepticism of arena net giving a rework to Harbinger in June is very valid since Arena net has left elite specs out of balance when they desperately needed it for half a decade I will counter with the fact that Arena Net's current direction is a bit different because of new people currently working there. We've already seen priorities shift at the company. Reaper for example getting buffed as much as it has would have never been something that would fly even in the path of fire era because Anet had felt that a spec that was so tanky could never get that much damage.

I Also don't agree that Harbinger's design is as intended because the toss feature was really thrown in last minute before the rushed Release of EoD. Harbinger has been low priority but I can't believe they'll leave it as is because the design of the elite spec is clearly rushed and I can't imagine the team that worked on the elite spec are satisfied with its overall design.

Arena net takes a lot of pride in their design. I can't imagine they'd leave it as is. Its not a popular spec. It gets some use because necromancer is popular, one of the most popular professions. Rank 2 according to gw2efficency. Although I could be wrong on its popularity in PvP and WvW, Its probably somewhat common there. I don't touch PvP because I don't like fighting players and don't touch WvW much for similar reasons although i still dip into WvW sometimes because I have to for legendary equipment.

I Do think we'll see some reworks to the elixirs in June. I don't believe we'll see reworks to the traits. Which I think needs just as much help.

[Asum.4960]

Quote

Harbinger

Harbinger Shroud: Increased blight stacks per second from 1 to 2 in PvE only.

Voracious Arc: Reduced blight threshold from 10 to 5.

Elixir of Ambition: Increased stacks of each condition from 1 to 3 In PvE only. Reduced cooldown from 90 seconds to 60 seconds in PvE only.

I have to say that after these band-aid changes, although it doesn't change the fundamental faults in Harbinger's design, the spec is actually enjoyable now. 

Short of a rework which likely won't happen for years if ever, I think Harbinger just needs three fairly minor changes to be in an acceptable state now: 

1. Move Resistance over from Ignorance to Bliss in addition to it's Resolution, and give Ignorance Stability and Aegis instead.

2. Increase the Evade on Voracious Arc to 0.75 seconds, to cover it's own animation lock and allow it to actually dodge the plentiful mechanics in the game designed around a 0.75 dodge roll. 

3. Increase Elixir radii to minimum 360 (and honestly just scrap the tossing mechanic again, or make it exclusive to Twisted Medicine for shared boons, with the default being the original drinking for self-boons).

 

 

Edited May 21, 2023 by Asum.4960

[Lily.1935]

20 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

I have to say that after these band-aid changes, although it doesn't change the fundamental faults in Harbinger's design, the spec is actually enjoyable now. 

Short of a rework which likely won't happen for years if ever, I think Harbinger just needs three fairly minor changes to be in an acceptable state now: 

1. Move Resistance over from Ignorance to Bliss in addition to it's Resolution, and give Ignorance Stability and Aegis instead.

2. Increase the Evade on Voracious Arc to 0.75 seconds to cover it's own animation lock. 

3. Increase Elixir radii to minimum 360 (and honestly just scrap the tossing mechanic again).

 

 

Currently with the Harbinger's design after testing it myself and seeing were others are going Harbinger is no better than it was before except with a slight damage increase. You still need 3 elixirs. So although the change helped it a bit, we're far off from it being where it needs to be.

Elixirs shouldn't be required to take at all but all of the harbinger builds need them. And this goes back to that post I made earlier in this topic. The Adept traits need to generate blight in some way. And the septic and wicked corruption traits need their damage bonus added to one of the minor traits while septic corruption's poison on skill 2 should be added to dark gunslinger.

Beyond just that the Elixirs need a major facelift. Some can be toss while others are drink. Drink elixirs should always give you blight while toss elixirs should only give you blight if you are traited for it. I'd like to see the elixir design geared so they can compete with some of the most powerful utility necromancer has without them being mandatory like they are now.

[Asum.4960]

53 minutes ago, Lily.1935 said:

Currently with the Harbinger's design after testing it myself and seeing were others are going Harbinger is no better than it was before except with a slight damage increase. You still need 3 elixirs. So although the change helped it a bit, we're far off from it being where it needs to be.

Elixirs shouldn't be required to take at all but all of the harbinger builds need them. And this goes back to that post I made earlier in this topic. The Adept traits need to generate blight in some way. And the septic and wicked corruption traits need their damage bonus added to one of the minor traits while septic corruption's poison on skill 2 should be added to dark gunslinger.

Beyond just that the Elixirs need a major facelift. Some can be toss while others are drink. Drink elixirs should always give you blight while toss elixirs should only give you blight if you are traited for it. I'd like to see the elixir design geared so they can compete with some of the most powerful utility necromancer has without them being mandatory like they are now.

I've been running just the buffed Elite along with Heal Elixir, which together with the doubled Blight generation in Shroud (and halved Blight cost of Voracious Arc) has been more than enough, and really smoothed out the gameplay from before of tossing Heal+two Utility Elixir's constantly. 

 

Can you run a 3rd Elixir and maybe get a tiny bit more out of it with the extra 5 Blight from it (especially since there aren't any good Necromancer Utility skills to fill the slots, besides very situational Utility)? Maybe, but considering Elixir cast time and how quickly Blight comes in Shroud now, it's probably in the realm of mostly irrelevant/not worth the effort. 

Just the Heal elixir for the initial 10 Blight is enough to kickstart the double Condi duration for Ambition (which makes it beat Plaguelands, especially for any mobile fight), from which point on I never even had to watch my Blight, it was always enough.

And one 17s CD + one 40s CD Elixir (with alac) certainly is smoother than three 17s CD ones. Even if you add a Utility Elixir to that for the 20 Blight start rather than 15, it's still less spammy. But again, with the 2 Blight per second and halved cost on Voracious Arc, it's really not needed in practice - if it even is an increase in Benching.

 

Plus the higher average Blight levels really helped with the LF wonkyness from Blight consumption on S3&4.

 

But it's not that I disagree with you, just that especially with the changes listed in my post, I would be fine with Harbinger staying in that state for the semi-longterm - because I doubt that major rework it needs is coming any time soon, if ever. 

 

Harb is absolutely still a wonky, self-conflicting mess of a design, but imo with those minor adjustments it would be in an acceptable, albeit far from ideal ofc, state. 

And acceptable is a lot of times as good as it gets. 

Edited May 8, 2023 by Asum.4960

[wolfyrik.2017]

Wow, love this thread. Looked like it was going to get really hostile but turned into a really wholesome discsussion. Good ideas all around. The ideas for pushing the Dark Alchemist theme to improve the class overall, are brilliant.

[Burnfall.9573]

II have been waiting for this day to finally give my 2 cents about Necromancer Profession - Bad Design Elite Profession -  Harbinger Profession.

 

After dealing with Mesmer Profession and Elementalist Professions not having an identity...Necromancer Profession is next in line.

DOES GOD OF DEATH'S - GRENTH AND DHUMM USED GUNS?

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Dhuum#:~:text=Dhuum was once the God of Death. During,those who escaped death%2C having promised "death undeniable."

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Grenth

 

WHAT IS NECROMANCER PROFESSION LORE DOING WITH A GUN?

DEATH DOES NOT CARRY A GUN ARROUND SHOOTING!!

 

"Maybe next expansion we can get rifle elementalist spec, shooting elemental bullets at 1200+ range..."

"You know who's a Necro? Thief spectre."

 

Seriously, Why Are There So Much Hate Against Professions Having Their Own Lore's, Identity And Their Roles?

Why??

Edited May 9, 2023 by Burnfall.9573

[Lily.1935]

16 hours ago, wolfyrik.2017 said:

Wow, love this thread. Looked like it was going to get really hostile but turned into a really wholesome discsussion. Good ideas all around. The ideas for pushing the Dark Alchemist theme to improve the class overall, are brilliant.

Thanks, I ended up reading quite a bit about alchemy for this having gained interest in it some years ago.

[Lily.1935]

8 hours ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

II have been waiting for this day to finally give my 2 cents about Necromancer Profession - Bad Design Elite Profession -  Harbinger Profession.

 

After dealing with Mesmer Profession and Elementalist Professions not having an identity...Necromancer Profession is next in line.

DOES GOD OF DEATH'S - GRENTH AND DHUMM USED GUNS?

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Dhuum#:~:text=Dhuum was once the God of Death. During,those who escaped death%2C having promised "death undeniable."

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Grenth

 

WHAT IS NECROMANCER PROFESSION LORE DOING WITH A GUN?

DEATH DOES NOT CARRY A GUN ARROUND SHOOTING!!

 

"Maybe next expansion we can get rifle elementalist spec, shooting elemental bullets at 1200+ range..."

"You know who's a Necro? Thief spectre."

 

Seriously, Why Are There So Much Hate Against Professions Having Their Own Lore's, Identity And Their Roles?

Why??

Lore is flexible and what is or can be are all flexible.

Necromancer has come a long way from its roots in GW1. The team that originally designed the necromancer isn't around at arena net anymore coming over from Blizzard. Many of whom worked on Diablo 1&2, and we can see that with the GW1's necromancer's design. The team still had some inspiration from old beliefs in witchcraft as both Necromancer and Monk pretty accurately represent a dramatized version of Left hand Path and Right hand path. Or Black and White magic respectively.

However, as the game has evolved over the years different influences has taken root as the people who work on the necromancer see different aspects they want to embody. The reaper for example goes less with the Left hand path of GW1 and more in the concepts of horror and the grim reaper. Its lore seems inspired somewhat by grenth, the god of death, thus the chill themes we see in its design.

Scourge goes a more shamanistic direction being heavily inspired by Movies like the Mummy and wanted a lore tie in with a villain of GW1, Palawa Joko. Scourge further moves away from the Black magic roots of GW1 as reaper did with them being a guide to lost souls, changed the dark magic into something good. Although the subtle elements of black magic are still there.

Harbinger has some lore to it as using dragon magic as a source for power which is on brand for the necromancer who uses magic from unsavory sources like demons and negative emotions. While the magic is slightly different, its not a stretch to find a reason why the necromancer would be the one to take such a risk. They've been making pacts with demons in canon since before the events of Guild Wars 1.

Harbinger does however fill a mechanical niche the necromancer hasn't touched since GW1 which is the glass canon offensive support/debuffer. Although its methods of doing so is quite different and the play style is very different it is nice to have in the game again, even if the execution is awful.

What I'm really trying to get at here is that the necromancer is very much about greatness at any cost. Be it poisoning themselves, making blood pacts with demons, corrupting their own spirit for power they're more than willing to take these sort of risks which Harbinger is right on brand with.

[Nuldric.1239]

15 hours ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

DOES GOD OF DEATH'S - GRENTH AND DHUMM USED GUNS?

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Dhuum#:~:text=Dhuum was once the God of Death. During,those who escaped death%2C having promised "death undeniable."

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Grenth

 

WHAT IS NECROMANCER PROFESSION LORE DOING WITH A GUN?

DEATH DOES NOT CARRY A GUN ARROUND SHOOTING!!

Umm, what does have Charr or Asura in common with Grenth or Dhumm magic, should they even be using necromancy at all? 🤔 What I'm trying to say is that they needed to expand old necromancy theme to fit modern design of GW. I'm glad for Harbinger. It fits my Asura necro more than Scourge or Reaper, lore wise.

 

edit:sorry for my bad english 😅

Edited May 9, 2023 by Nuldric.1239

[Burnfall.9573]

7 hours ago, Lily.1935 said:

Lore is flexible and what is or can be are all flexible.

Necromancer has come a long way from its roots in GW1. The team that originally designed the necromancer isn't around at arena net anymore coming over from Blizzard. Many of whom worked on Diablo 1&2, and we can see that with the GW1's necromancer's design. The team still had some inspiration from old beliefs in witchcraft as both Necromancer and Monk pretty accurately represent a dramatized version of Left hand Path and Right hand path. Or Black and White magic respectively.

However, as the game has evolved over the years different influences has taken root as the people who work on the necromancer see different aspects they want to embody. The reaper for example goes less with the Left hand path of GW1 and more in the concepts of horror and the grim reaper. Its lore seems inspired somewhat by grenth, the god of death, thus the chill themes we see in its design.

Scourge goes a more shamanistic direction being heavily inspired by Movies like the Mummy and wanted a lore tie in with a villain of GW1, Palawa Joko. Scourge further moves away from the Black magic roots of GW1 as reaper did with them being a guide to lost souls, changed the dark magic into something good. Although the subtle elements of black magic are still there.

Harbinger has some lore to it as using dragon magic as a source for power which is on brand for the necromancer who uses magic from unsavory sources like demons and negative emotions. While the magic is slightly different, its not a stretch to find a reason why the necromancer would be the one to take such a risk. They've been making pacts with demons in canon since before the events of Guild Wars 1.

Harbinger does however fill a mechanical niche the necromancer hasn't touched since GW1 which is the glass canon offensive support/debuffer. Although its methods of doing so is quite different and the play style is very different it is nice to have in the game again, even if the execution is awful.

What I'm really trying to get at here is that the necromancer is very much about greatness at any cost. Be it poisoning themselves, making blood pacts with demons, corrupting their own spirit for power they're more than willing to take these sort of risks which Harbinger is right on brand with.

 

At this point, this new Anet should remove the name -Guild Wars- from the game and create a modern name for the game.

 

“Where there is no honor for the elderly, there is no future for the young,”

Edited May 9, 2023 by Burnfall.9573

[Lily.1935]

1 hour ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

 

At this point, this new Anet should remove the name -Guild Wars- from the game and create a modern name for the game.

 

“Where there is no honor for the elderly, there is no future for the young,”

Not sure what you're on about with "Honoring elders" thing, but there's no reason things can't change. And I wouldn't say harbinger is off brand for necromancer, it isn't as my post suggested.

As for the name, I agree that Guild Wars was a mistake. It should have been called Tyria, but that has nothing to do with some franchise purity and more to do with branding. At this point its too late for that and Guild Wars has stuck.