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why are there no consequences for killing summons?


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you can't revive off of a necromancer's minions, if you kill a ranger's pet they just get the other instantly and its right there teleported, if you kill the jade bot they just instantly summon another

 

why is it not a viable strategy to kill these? it should be. and the jade bot instantly being back is just dumb.

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37 minutes ago, Duke Nukem.6783 said:

you can't revive off of a necromancer's minions, if you kill a ranger's pet they just get the other instantly and its right there teleported, if you kill the jade bot they just instantly summon another

 

why is it not a viable strategy to kill these? it should be. and the jade bot instantly being back is just dumb.

You haven't really thought this through have you?

The most fragile of summons, like clones, should never carry the weight of rallying, obviously. Do you know what sort of clown fiesta that would create? And killing minions/clones is a viable strategy.

The jade bot is on the other side of the survival spectrum, but it was designed as a critical third of the Mechanist build. It's not inherently given, it's traded. It's like overheating as a Holosmith; a clear downside/counter mechanic that justifies some other strengths of the build. Not all elite specializations or pets have that downside.

Essentially, to lose the jade bot is to lose the fight. And Mechanists need to use their whole elite ability to limit, not even prevent, that from happening.

It's almost funny that you specify jade bots twice. Rangers inherently have pets regardless of how they spec (focusing on the pet or not). They don't lose functionality of skills for having them (Engineers lose 1/2 of all base skill functionality, the toolbelt, by going Mechanist). They have built in revive/reset/protection mechanics (swapping). If you're a Soulbeast, your pet is essentially immortal.

Point is, it would be stupid to treat killing every summon equally. Some have to sacrifice a lot to have or keep that integral summon around. Some don't. I agree with you that killing a Ranger's pet should have more meaning, given how freely given, impactful, and tanky they are.

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Just now, bethekey.8314 said:

You haven't really thought this through have you?

The most fragile of summons, like clones, should never carry the weight of rallying, obviously. Do you know what sort of clown fiesta that would create? 

This actually happened and it made mesmer completely unplayable in PvP/WvW until it was fixed.

For the topic at large, the only summons that don't crumple like wet tissue paper to conditions is the jade mech because that thing is made out of spaceships or something. Everything else dies incredibly easily to conditions so condition build would just keep rallying even from more tanky AI like ranger pets, necro minions and anything else added later.

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Minions are pretty weak - and sometimes it makese sense to kill them fast. They can be annoying ... but removing that annoyance is fast. Makes sense to not be able to rally from them. (Afaik you can't even rally from the NPCs in the Forest of Niflhel map And they are strong like normal PvE mobs. Not just 1-shot like a mesmer clone.)

The ranger pets afaik have cooldown as well - but I have not played ranger enough to be sure about this. I think it is just that the 2nd one is separate (you'd need to kill all 2 quickly to make him play without pets for a bit). Similar with the mechanist where the mech goes on cooldown. To respawn it quickly again you have to use the elite signet.

In the 5 vs 5 you might actually be able to kill the mech fast (or just kill the engineer fast so the mech gets removed as well) ... the more annoying thing is the mini seasons. But they are not "real" PvP. Everything feels weird their - depending on the team setup. (Especially the instant rez and instant finish abilities just don't fit into the 2 vs. 2.) Though I am not sure whether it is more important to use the elite signet to be able to respawn the mech (cause otherwise you are more likely to get targeted in a 5 vs. 5 you could run away letting more team mates distract the enemy) or whether you should just use more useful stuff and hoping the fight will be over before the mech dies.

Edited by Luthan.5236
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14 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

I agree with you that killing a Ranger's pet should have more meaning, given how freely given, impactful, and tanky they are.

Yea, let's just make it even easier to remove the entire class mechanic from an entire class (but only from ranger, don't you dare touch mech!), what could go wrong ...

Ranger is already punished harder than any other class for something they have very little control over. If you want to increase the punishment even further - at least give the player the ability to actually control their  pets survivabilty.

Edited by Zyreva.1078
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8 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Yea, let's just make it even easier to remove the entire class mechanic from an entire class (but only from ranger, don't you dare touch mech!), what could go wrong ...

Ranger is already punished harder than any other class for something they have very little control over. If you want to increase the punishment even further - at least give the player the ability to actually control their  pets survivabilty.

Did you only read that part and ignore the rest of the post?

To have and maintain the mech, Mechanists need to devote a traitline, heal (has to be Signet or AoE to affect the mech), their entire toolbelt mechanic, and elite skill. Without the toolbelt, normal abilities like kits don't have their full weight (e.g. no stunbreak on Elixir gun anymore), making signets often better. Without kits, the Mechanist is essentially a Ranger with more tradeoffs and no weapon swap. Especially after they neutered mech with nerfs (damage limited outside certain range of Mechanist, less stats and damage, alacrity mechanic gutted, no explosion trait interactions etc. etc.).

Please, tell me more how Ranger is oh so punished for having its pets.

And you do have control over your pet survivability. Don't just sic your pet on someone and forget. Don't send it into teamfights randomly. Basic pet management.

Let's also not forget Ranger having, hands down, the best downstate in the game and bonus range just for using bows. Do you think Ranger's "upstate" is balanced around those? Not a chance, those are freebies. The "woe is me" rant doesn't look good here.

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1 hour ago, bethekey.8314 said:

Please, tell me more how Ranger is oh so punished for having its pets.

Ranger is not punished for having pets (bugs and unresponsiveness aside), it's punished for losing them - and that's not something that can always be prevented (other than not engaging in certain fights ofc - but that is a pretty big limitation). So idk what you want - other than destroying the ranger class apparently ... Envious mech player?

Edited by Zyreva.1078
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1 hour ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Ranger is not punished for having pets (bugs and unresponsiveness aside), it's punished for losing them - and that's not something that can always be prevented (other than not engaging in certain fights ofc - but that is a pretty big limitation). So idk what you want - other than destroying the ranger class apparently ... Envious mech player?

You're making a point that pet classes losing their pets is punishing? Alert the presses lol.

Every pet class that loses it pet is punished. The point is that some classes have to give up much more than Rangers to not only have a pet, but also to keep it from dying. As far as I know, Rangers have much more control over their pets than clones, turrets, minions, elementals etc.

Not here to destroy your literal pet class. Don't be childish.

Edited by bethekey.8314
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On 5/6/2023 at 10:00 PM, Duke Nukem.6783 said:

you can't revive off of a necromancer's minions, if you kill a ranger's pet they just get the other instantly and its right there teleported, if you kill the jade bot they just instantly summon another

 

why is it not a viable strategy to kill these? it should be. and the jade bot instantly being back is just dumb.

I think it's pretty unfair that you can't rally off of mesmer clones. It just makes sense. 

Good thread. After 11 years spent cleaving down the different minions of enemy players, maybe I just never stopped to think that it's all pointless. I mean this is the second turret I wreck, and the turret engineer still has both legs... where is the punishment? Thank you for giving me another reason to be angry about imbalances. Interesting new perspective!

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On 5/7/2023 at 2:46 PM, bethekey.8314 said:

Please, tell me more how Ranger is oh so punished for having its pets.

EDIT: I was completely wrong. I probably forgot to unequip the thief trait that boosts power if you're holding a dagger. Read below if you want to know how dumb I was.

Ranger loses stats just for having pets, in case you weren't aware. The justification is that since the pet is there doing some work, the rangers themselves are weaker in exchange. It's not a small amount of stats, by the way - you baseline lose 200 power, and I'm not sure how much else in other stats (I think condi might also get a shave, as I have trouble reaching the same levels of condition damage stat as I do on other classes). The pets, with their garbage AI, pathing, and animations, fail to make up for the penalties. The majority of pets cannot land a single hit on a golem moving in a circle. If you get wrecked by a ranger pet, your movement skills are even worse than that golem moving in a set path at the same speed.

The notability of these stat penalties was made most apparent with the release of soulbeast, where rangers could lose the AI portion of their pets and reclaim those lost stats. Longbow rangers started absolutely murdering people, which led to Sic Em nerfs, the eventual gutting of One Wolf Pack, and a few other things.

Edited by voltaicbore.8012
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On 5/6/2023 at 4:00 PM, Duke Nukem.6783 said:

you can't revive off of a necromancer's minions, if you kill a ranger's pet they just get the other instantly and its right there teleported, if you kill the jade bot they just instantly summon another

 

why is it not a viable strategy to kill these? it should be. and the jade bot instantly being back is just dumb.

There are like zero (ok like maybe one or two viable) strong mechanists out there… at best theirs ones that live a while but still can’t bunker point.   Do we really need to kick them in the teeth even more?   It is like my favourite thing to see someone running mechanist on the opposing team.

 

Note I’m not putting down the skills of mechanist players… just the class is c tier

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18 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

Every pet class that loses it pet is punished.

But there is no pet class besides ranger (and - if you include elite specs - mechanist, in general engi is not a pet class tho).

18 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

As far as I know, Rangers have much more control over their pets than clones, turrets, minions, elementals etc.

That's because ranger pets are very different from those summons. Summons like minions and so on are more compareable to spirits - optional skills, not a mechanic the entire class is designed arround - and ranger does not have better control over those either.

Mesmer illusions are their own category - they are a class mechanic just like ranger pets, but they aren't something that you are supposed to keep alive for extended periods. Ofc losing them before shattering still sucks and it has limited mesmer's potential in certain content similar to ranger, but at least mesmer does not have an additional cd penalty for untimely clone death.

18 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

Not here to destroy your literal pet class. Don't be childish.

So you don't actually want ranger to be punished even more for dead pets contrary to what you said in your first post? Ok.

5 hours ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

Ranger loses stats just for having pets, in case you weren't aware.

Ranger does not lose stats. One could argue that it's overall dmg output is lower due to having some dmg tied to pets, but it's not reflected by base stats. Those are the same for ranger as for any other class (armor class/hp aside obviously).

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4 hours ago, shion.2084 said:

There are like zero (ok like maybe one or two viable) strong mechanists out there… at best theirs ones that live a while but still can’t bunker point.   Do we really need to kick them in the teeth even more?   It is like my favourite thing to see someone running mechanist on the opposing team.

 

Note I’m not putting down the skills of mechanist players… just the class is c tier

Today I watched Jenplays virtuosso WvW play on youtube and I think I know why Mech is low tier in PVP/WvW.

It lacks defence. Like block skill is on Shield and on F2, BUT unlike Virtuosso that have Invul/block duration skills on F4 and F5, which it can even reset, Mech has block for 1 attack. So if they would make F2 maybe 2 sec block it would change much.

 

Back to the main topic.

 

When you kill Mech, we have to use Elite signet for mech revive (though it also have synergy with other signets, and thats top design) or we could put other skills there and loose Mech revive.

And remember, loosing Mech, we loose all toolbelt skills and thats survivability and dmg.

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2 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Ranger does not lose stats. One could argue that it's overall dmg output is lower due to having some dmg tied to pets, but it's not reflected by base stats. Those are the same for ranger as for any other class (armor class/hp aside obviously).

It's been years, but I'm fairly certain that I ran a test where I put a level 80 thief and 80 ranger into their core specs, made sure to remove all traits and utilities that buff stats directly (so no signets), and put them in identical sets of ascended zerker gear (sw/dagger + shortbow, no runes or sigils to be precise). I think my ranger had 210 less power at the end of it all.

I could be wrong though. If I find time today, I'll run it again (should be easier with the legendary armory).

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On 5/6/2023 at 5:04 PM, bethekey.8314 said:

You haven't really thought this through have you?

The most fragile of summons, like clones, should never carry the weight of rallying, obviously. Do you know what sort of clown fiesta that would create? And killing minions/clones is a viable strategy.

The jade bot is on the other side of the survival spectrum, but it was designed as a critical third of the Mechanist build. It's not inherently given, it's traded. It's like overheating as a Holosmith; a clear downside/counter mechanic that justifies some other strengths of the build. Not all elite specializations or pets have that downside.

Essentially, to lose the jade bot is to lose the fight. And Mechanists need to use their whole elite ability to limit, not even prevent, that from happening.

It's almost funny that you specify jade bots twice. Rangers inherently have pets regardless of how they spec (focusing on the pet or not). They don't lose functionality of skills for having them (Engineers lose 1/2 of all base skill functionality, the toolbelt, by going Mechanist). They have built in revive/reset/protection mechanics (swapping). If you're a Soulbeast, your pet is essentially immortal.

Point is, it would be stupid to treat killing every summon equally. Some have to sacrifice a lot to have or keep that integral summon around. Some don't. I agree with you that killing a Ranger's pet should have more meaning, given how freely given, impactful, and tanky they are.

it is hard to kill the jade bot, and gives no reward. this is bad design

 

i never mentioned mesmer clones so i won't respond to any of that , but ranger pets should have a death animation and not teleport around so much, and the jade bot should have some consequences on death

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On 5/8/2023 at 7:42 PM, voltaicbore.8012 said:

It's been years, but I'm fairly certain that I ran a test where I put a level 80 thief and 80 ranger into their core specs, made sure to remove all traits and utilities that buff stats directly (so no signets), and put them in identical sets of ascended zerker gear (sw/dagger + shortbow, no runes or sigils to be precise). I think my ranger had 210 less power at the end of it all.

I could be wrong though. If I find time today, I'll run it again (should be easier with the legendary armory).

There's no could be, you are wrong about the stat difference.
In the original state of the game ranger damage coefficients were lower due to the pet but it's really not the case anymore. Don't just take what I say as gospel check the coefficients on the wiki:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Greatsword
They're all very similar between classes.

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1 hour ago, apharma.3741 said:

There's no could be, you are wrong about the stat difference.
In the original state of the game ranger damage coefficients were lower due to the pet but it's really not the case anymore. Don't just take what I say as gospel check the coefficients on the wiki:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Greatsword
They're all very similar between classes.

Yeah I re-checked, I must not have pulled off all the traits on my thief (probably the dagger +power one) when I tried to check all those years ago. I was wrong about that.

The coefficient picture is not quite as clear as "they're all very similar." Ranger GS autos 1 & 2 are markedly lower than the rest (I think warrior's first auto is the only other 0.8 in the list). All the other auto chains either apply boons or vuln somewhere in there, and rangers get a partial dodge refill (which, unlike the old evade at the end of the chain, only has defensive value).

But on the other hand, while Vindi's auto 1 & 2 have a full 0.2 higher coefficient, there's no trait Vindi can use to buff GS attacks specifically (which ranger has, as well as warr and guard). 

This isn't a complaint about ranger GS - it's frankly one of the best weapons in the entire game. It's just that the number comparison of "very similar" doesn't cut it.

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17 hours ago, Duke Nukem.6783 said:

it is hard to kill the jade bot, and gives no reward. this is bad design

 

i never mentioned mesmer clones so i won't respond to any of that , but ranger pets should have a death animation and not teleport around so much, and the jade bot should have some consequences on death

Yea untamed pet skills are hella broken. Needs some adjusting. Especially the port, they should remove the blind on it and maybe change the other skills. 

I kinda like mechs current state in PvP. It's bottom tier, exactly where it belongs 

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People are giving you bad answers, the real answer is that the balance between large scale fights and small scale fights is very finnicky in this game, particularly with regards to AI. For instance, if pets/mechs were more viable to kill in duels then they would have to be so weak that they would die extremely quickly in teamfights (notice how ranger has almost always been used on the sidenode rather in teamfights, etc).

Thus, so as to not make these specs useless in larger scale fights, they have been given tools to keep their summons alive or to resummon them fairly regularly/quickly.

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On 5/6/2023 at 10:00 PM, Duke Nukem.6783 said:

you can't revive off of a necromancer's minions

It would be awkward if you were revived by having your foe blowing up it's own minion via an active skill or from the minion naturally reaching the end of it's lifespan. And I seriously doubt the game would be able to tell the difference since the rallying mechanism linked to "killing" do not ask you to deliver the killing blow but to simply contribute to the kill.

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5 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

There's no could be, you are wrong about the stat difference.
In the original state of the game ranger damage coefficients were lower due to the pet but it's really not the case anymore. Don't just take what I say as gospel check the coefficients on the wiki:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Greatsword
They're all very similar between classes.

Have you ever tried killing somewhat competent players without pet on any non slb spec? It doesn't work very well. And even in PvE non slb rangers are at the bottom of the dps charts - even with pets (that are still balanced arround core and can't keep up with all the insane powercreep). Ranger's dmg output is clearly balanced arround having additional dmg from pets.

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6 hours ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

Yeah I re-checked, I must not have pulled off all the traits on my thief (probably the dagger +power one) when I tried to check all those years ago. I was wrong about that.

The coefficient picture is not quite as clear as "they're all very similar." Ranger GS autos 1 & 2 are markedly lower than the rest (I think warrior's first auto is the only other 0.8 in the list). All the other auto chains either apply boons or vuln somewhere in there, and rangers get a partial dodge refill (which, unlike the old evade at the end of the chain, only has defensive value).

But on the other hand, while Vindi's auto 1 & 2 have a full 0.2 higher coefficient, there's no trait Vindi can use to buff GS attacks specifically (which ranger has, as well as warr and guard). 

This isn't a complaint about ranger GS - it's frankly one of the best weapons in the entire game. It's just that the number comparison of "very similar" doesn't cut it.

Depends if you're comparing PvP or PvE figures. In PvP/WvW the coefficients are very similar and this is the PvP forums so....
There's also other aspects to consider like ranger's greatsword is a very stacked weapon in utility, sword lacks the damage of other classes but had 2 evades and good condition access through poison to reduce healing. All in all classes are different and ranger does achieve success through slightly different means.
The pet since HoT largely compliments the ranger through utility, often CC or in the case of fanged ebola cover conditions that ranger rarely has access to. Yes there's a lot of pets that are largely not used but that would always be the case with a pet selection this large, there is good variety of use though.

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