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Participation needs to go


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I just lost my entire participation progress because this game makes zero sense. I was in a duel for literally 15 minutes straight defending a camp only to die and lose because they got lucky a team mate shows up. but now I've gained no rewards and lost them. 30 minutes of my time wasted BECAUSE I HAD THE AUDACITY TO ENGAGE IN A FIGHT IN WORLD V WORLD MAKE IT MAKE SENSE

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This isnt a problem with the participation system on the whole. If the participation stopped ticking down while in combat, this would be a non-issue. It's just that Anet decided engaging in combat is not participating in WvW. 

Edited by Dawdler.8521
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5 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

This isnt a problem with the participation system on the whole. If the participation stopped ticking down while in combat, this would be a non-issue.

To encourage more boring stalemate builds and enable permanent afk farming?

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11 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

This isnt a problem with the participation system on the whole. If the participation stopped ticking down while in combat, this would be a non-issue. It's just that Anet decided engaging in combat is not participating in WvW. 

Um yeah the problem with that is it would take afk running into a wall into another level, you could have two people off in a corner with minstrel builds auto attacking each other. And while it might be fun to hunt down those afk packs eventually, it's a freebie that shouldn't exist in the first place.

Participation is fine as is, there's like two dozen ways to get it, don't know why anyone would spend 15 mins fighting a stalemate over a camp, if you can't win in a minute or even two, call for help or just leave.

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8 minutes ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Um yeah the problem with that is it would take afk running into a wall into another level, you could have two people off in a corner with minstrel builds auto attacking each other. And while it might be fun to hunt down those afk packs eventually, it's a freebie that shouldn't exist in the first place.

Right now they run into a wall in the safety of spawn, them risking death would still be an improvement. So it's not really a cost for an improvement.

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3 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Right now they run into a wall in the safety of spawn, them risking death would still be an improvement. So it's not really a cost for an improvement.

Yes but I would rather they have something in place to get rid of that altogether, not encourage another way to do it.... Might as well bring back participation from repairs if you want the afkers out in the world instead, at least their repairs would do something useful over the other two ways.

Edited by Xenesis.6389
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16 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Right now they run into a wall in the safety of spawn, them risking death would still be an improvement. So it's not really a cost for an improvement.

Afking in a remote corner is hardly more "risky" than having to leave spawn once in a while to flip a camp.

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2 hours ago, thetwothousand.5049 said:

I was in a duel for literally 15 minutes straight defending a camp only to die and lose because they got lucky a team mate shows up. but now I've gained no rewards and lost them.

More reasons sustain and mobility has destroyed this games pvp.

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It would be nice if there was some way to earn participation tokens that would let you reset your participation to 10 minutes.  Not sure what the method would be, but there are smart people here, so I suspect someone could come up with something,  I have come close to dropping participation just by spending 10 minutes responding to call out, only to get there and find that it was only a few and they had run.  It does not happen often, but it does happen.

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58 minutes ago, Erich.1783 said:

It would be nice if there was some way to earn participation tokens that would let you reset your participation to 10 minutes.  Not sure what the method would be, but there are smart people here, so I suspect someone could come up with something,  I have come close to dropping participation just by spending 10 minutes responding to call out, only to get there and find that it was only a few and they had run.  It does not happen often, but it does happen.

It's actually not too bad of an idea.

They're about to implement a new infusion reward drop from keep lords, which will be ultra rare I'm sure, they could go this direction for more rewards if it works out, or make it another player drop, maybe even only drops when you're at t6 participation.

I would make it a 2min participation token that does not stack the timer but resets your counter to 2mins, so equivalent to capping a ruin or killing a sentry. Does not give additional participation progress so people can't just spam use it to build their participation tiers. So it's basically only used in emergencies to stop the decay timer countdown, if you want the 10 mins and progress then go do something that earns it, cap an objective or kill a player.

The only con would be people complaining about something else to store in their bag, right after they just made emblems of avenger useable for something again. 🤭🍿

 

Edited by Xenesis.6389
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37 minutes ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

It's actually not too bad of an idea.

They're about to implement a new infusion reward drop from keep lords, which will be ultra rare I'm sure, they could go this direction for more rewards if it works out, or make it another player drop, maybe even only drops when you're at t6 participation.

I would make it a 2min participation token that does not stack the timer but resets your counter to 2mins, so equivalent to capping a ruin or killing a sentry. Does not give additional participation progress so people can't just spam use it to build their participation tiers. So it's basically only used in emergencies to stop the decay timer countdown, if you want the 10 mins and progress then go do something that earns it, cap an objective or kill a player.

The only con would be people complaining about something else to store in their bag, right after they just made emblems of avenger useable for something again. 🤭🍿

 

I agree with the idea that it would not increase participation tier, and I can see it not giving a full 10 minute timer reset, but maybe split the difference and go 5 minutes, same as capping a sentry point.  Also, I think that making it a rare drop form lords and players sounds like a reasonable idea. but lets hear some other ideas.  Sorry if I end up hijacking this thread, but I think the idea of eliminating participation is a bad idea, but I do like the idea of giving active players a way to do things (scout, chase calls, repair, etc.) and maintain participation outside of being in a squad with the participation "buff."

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Rewards based on time spent in WvW seems a bit off the mark - as has been noted, you can basically hang out and just capture a camp every 10 minutes, or defeat a vet, escort a dolyak, etc.  Sure, that is doing something, but not a lot.

I have certainly been in the situation where my participation is getting close to decaying and I see enemy players, and my first thought is 'let me just get out of here and try to find something else to kill', because if I'm not 100% sure I'm going to win that fight, spending time doing it is literally a waste of time.

While AFK farming could be an issue, it would seem like having something like engaging enemy players near a camp/tower/keep/whatever gets you something for participation.  AFK doing that would likely be noticed fairly quickly (not tucked away in a non visible corner of the map) and get killed.

 

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7 hours ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Just win next time.

But also... who fights in a 15min 1v1 stalemate?

It happens to me surprisingly often.  I run a celestial weaver, with enough sustain + cleanses + defense to keep going almost indefinitely.  For a fight to end, either I need to fight an opponent who can't out-sustain my damage, or I need to fight an opponent who I cannot out-sustain.  There are many professions that don't fall into either category.

Tank rangers are the worst.  I'm not sure what gear they wear, but all they do is run around in circles while the pet attacks you, and every skill on their bar is meant to evade or CC.  I find these guys quite often, and as far as I can tell their entire strategy is to kite in circles and hope that help arrives.  I've also encountered thieves with tanky stats that will just spam evades and run in circles constantly, using the regen from Shadow Arts to keep themselves alive.  Of course, there are also fellow celestial builds (other elementalists, the occasional mesmer or necromancer, etc).

Sometimes we'll realize that we can't kill each other and then break off the fight.  Those are the best, because then we quit wasting each others time and go our separate ways,  But some people I swear play this game to mash buttons, and they'll engage in furious combat for dozens of minutes.  Which is unfortunate for me, since my pain puts a biological limit on how long I can fight, but these people will relentlessly flip and spin with a low damage build for all eternity, because that's their version of heaven or something.  I'm not sure how long the longest fight I've been in was, but there's been a few where I've activated Fiery Greatsword 4 times in a single engagement.  I've never seen these fights end without someone else butting in.  As for the draining participation, apparently these people just don't care.  They get to mash buttons, and that is enough for them.  All attempts to break off and go separate ways end in futility, because they've just got to keep pressing those buttons.

On the one hand, you'd think that they're just like me on the other side, hoping that maybe next minute the fight will be over.  However, someone doesn't build a tank ranger with that sort of mentality, so these people really are in it to pound their keyboards indefinitely.

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57 minutes ago, Erich.1783 said:

I agree with the idea that it would not increase participation tier, and I can see it not giving a full 10 minute timer reset, but maybe split the difference and go 5 minutes, same as capping a sentry point.  Also, I think that making it a rare drop form lords and players sounds like a reasonable idea. but lets hear some other ideas.  Sorry if I end up hijacking this thread, but I think the idea of eliminating participation is a bad idea, but I do like the idea of giving active players a way to do things (scout, chase calls, repair, etc.) and maintain participation outside of being in a squad with the participation "buff."

Sure I guess, since it's not building participation or able to stacking I suppose 5mins would also be fine. They could also let these drop through the dailies as they do for the reward track potions.

48 minutes ago, Solvar.7953 said:

I have certainly been in the situation where my participation is getting close to decaying and I see enemy players, and my first thought is 'let me just get out of here and try to find something else to kill', because if I'm not 100% sure I'm going to win that fight, spending time doing it is literally a waste of time.

And I play without ever thinking about my participation before a fight. At t6 you have 25 mins(10buffer 15 actual decay) to gain any sort of participation to stop the decay, even running by a sentry or guard and shooting your warclaw spear at it while someone kills it gives you credit. There's 2 dozen ways to gain participation, you only need t3 for skirmish, if you're active you don't have to worry about it at all.

4 minutes ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

It happens to me surprisingly often.  I run a celestial weaver, with enough sustain + cleanses + defense to keep going almost indefinitely.  For a fight to end, either I need to fight an opponent who can't out-sustain my damage, or I need to fight an opponent who I cannot out-sustain.  There are many professions that don't fall into either category.

Ok if you're building your character to be a super tank and not be able to win 1v1's are you at least calling for help at the objectives? You can't really expect to roam around in tank mode and get credit for draws, the game mode has always relied on getting kills for credit, especially if you're roaming. If you want to run around in a super sustain build, that's a player's problem/choice, not the system. I mean should a person also roll into a camp with minstrels and expect to get anything without a kill too? If you want to run around in super sustain with limited kill potential, then call in backup. I can't believe someone would spend 15 mins at a camp with their tank build and then complain about not killing the enemy. 🤷‍♂️

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34 minutes ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Ok if you're building your character to be a super tank and not be able to win 1v1's are you at least calling for help at the objectives? You can't really expect to roam around in tank mode and get credit for draws, the game mode has always relied on getting kills for credit, especially if you're roaming. If you want to run around in a super sustain build, that's a player's problem/choice, not the system. I mean should a person also roll into a camp with minstrels and expect to get anything without a kill too? If you want to run around in super sustain with limited kill potential, then call in backup. I can't believe someone would spend 15 mins at a camp with their tank build and then complain about not killing the enemy. 🤷‍♂️

I didn't build myself to be tanky.  I built myself to be well rounded.  We're talking about people who can't out-damage the Water line with celestial stats. 

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It is better to not defend the camp. Safer to let the enemy cap it (even if it is at a higher tier) - then recapping it. Safe way to keep participation and the system encourages you to do so.

WvW is not about winning. Not about fighting. It is about doing PvE in a way that keeps your participation up. While in between killing some enemy players every now and then if there is a safe option to to so (big zerg fight) to also gain some other loot.

The system is the main reason I dislike WvW though. Every time when I do the obsidian sanctum (they don't even manage to remove the system from that map there) for my solo guild - the guild mission (easy to do) I lose a lot of the timer on highest participation tier. With all the other content in the game I recently decided to stop playing WvW at all. (Before that I only got the wood tier chest each weekend - for the +1pip in the following week.)

There is just too much pressure to play in certain ways ... and not the way I want to play. Basically better to zerg and cap stuff. And with defense even nerfed more (afaik) ... the interesting style of play - defending and upgrading stuff ... also seems less interesting. Though that actually should be main reason to play lol. Imo they should just remove all the structures and sieges and just make it a flat map where 3 zergs fight each other in the middle.

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20 hours ago, thetwothousand.5049 said:

I just lost my entire participation progress because this game makes zero sense. I was in a duel for literally 15 minutes straight defending a camp only to die and lose because they got lucky a team mate shows up. but now I've gained no rewards and lost them. 30 minutes of my time wasted BECAUSE I HAD THE AUDACITY TO ENGAGE IN A FIGHT IN WORLD V WORLD MAKE IT MAKE SENSE

I thought that unless you were fighting away from the camp you should get participation for defending the camp every 3 minutes or so while it is contested. 

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14 hours ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

It's actually not too bad of an idea.

They're about to implement a new infusion reward drop from keep lords, which will be ultra rare I'm sure, they could go this direction for more rewards if it works out, or make it another player drop, maybe even only drops when you're at t6 participation.

I would make it a 2min participation token that does not stack the timer but resets your counter to 2mins, so equivalent to capping a ruin or killing a sentry. Does not give additional participation progress so people can't just spam use it to build their participation tiers. So it's basically only used in emergencies to stop the decay timer countdown, if you want the 10 mins and progress then go do something that earns it, cap an objective or kill a player.

The only con would be people complaining about something else to store in their bag, right after they just made emblems of avenger useable for something again. 🤭🍿

 

What about, we can exchange all those emblems of the avenger and whatever the other one is called for a participation extension? Can even make it a potion you double click when you think you need to sustain your participation level because that guy just won't stop attacking a minstrels FB as you both embrace the eternity of boredom the fight will become.
Lord knows I got no other use for the things and WvW just keeps vomiting them at me.

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