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Will Scourge Ever Be Fixed?


Zex Anthon.8673

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Been over a year since Scourge was gutted with EoD. All barrier skills were slashed in half in favor of more scaling with healing power. However, the scaling hardly makes up for the lost barrier. A pure dps scourge can't even output more than 6K barrier on a 30s cooldown. That is literally one attack... (or 1/3 of a sic em soulbeast burst from 1500 range....)

How the kitten is scourge supposed to survive? It's so bad even the best support in the world couldn't carry this trash.

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Been over 10 years since ranger was introduced and it still cant compete in WvW for Area of Effect spam or Boon Rip in large scale combat making it utterly useless for that role.

With the increasing prevelence of reflects and projectile hate its even more trash now in that role, it cant even snipe healers or commanders when they are in the back line of a group.

A pure dps soulbeast cant compete with the AOE damage pressure that a Scourge can output! Its so unfair.

Hurp Durp.

OP = Rock is fine. Nerf scissors. - Paper

Edited by Sandzibar.5134
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3 hours ago, Zex Anthon.8673 said:

How the kitten is scourge supposed to survive?

Dodge... Like 90% of the "pure dps" in this game. If you think dodge isn't enough, just don't play a "pure dps".

40 minutes ago, Sandzibar.5134 said:

A pure dps soulbeast cant compete with the AOE damage pressure that a Scourge can output!

That's arguable, especially if one talk about WvW where scourge's shades are in a pathetic state. That said, it's true that the soulbeast "meta build" can't compete in AOE damage pressure, still it doesn't mean that an alternate build can't.

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7 hours ago, Zex Anthon.8673 said:

1/3 of a sic em soulbeast burst from 1500 range....

How the kitten is scourge supposed to survive?

I can tell you how:

Don't fight a 1500 range single target burst build with your 900 range aoe glass canon in open field.

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It's not broken. It's OK if some things hard counter others (or that they don't and it's just a L2P issue). A pure DPS build doesn't output much defensive capability? Sounds just like how things are supposed to work to me. 

Maybe Necro just isn't for you. 

Edited by Obtena.7952
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5 hours ago, Sandzibar.5134 said:

Been over 10 years since ranger was introduced and it still cant compete in WvW for Area of Effect spam or Boon Rip in large scale combat making it utterly useless for that role.

With the increasing prevelence of reflects and projectile hate its even more trash now in that role, it cant even snipe healers or commanders when they are in the back line of a group.

A pure dps soulbeast cant compete with the AOE damage pressure that a Scourge can output! Its so unfair.

Hurp Durp.

OP = Rock is fine. Nerf scissors. - Paper

Except in this case Scourge is not paper. Scourge is a bug that can be smashed by rock, cut by scissors, and smothered by paper.

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5 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Dodge... Like 90% of the "pure dps" in this game. If you think dodge isn't enough, just don't play a "pure dps".

Ahh the "just dodge" argument. You know 90% of the "pure dps" also have blocks and evades to survive long enough to get their burst out. Also "pure dps" scourge is a joke, it can't output anywhere near the amount of burst required for that role. And, it can't survive long enough for its AoE pressure to be effective.

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1 hour ago, KrHome.1920 said:

I can tell you how:

Don't fight a 1500 range single target burst build with your 900 range aoe glass canon in open field.

Tell me who should I fight then? Match Scourge up with any profession, any spec, it will lose 100% of the time.

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1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

It's not broken. It's OK if some things hard counter others (or that they don't and it's just a L2P issue). A pure DPS build doesn't output much defensive capability? Sounds just like how things are supposed to work to me. 

Maybe Necro just isn't for you. 

How about a support build that can't support? Even with the buff to the healing power scaling you still need to use Desert Shroud and Sand Flare to pump out more than 6K barrier. So I can protect my allies for 5 seconds every 30 seconds assuming I can maintain the lifeforce. Compare that to the amount of raw healing that tempest and guardian are crapping out on classes with superior survivability.  

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3 hours ago, Zex Anthon.8673 said:

You know 90% of the "pure dps" also have blocks and evades to survive long enough to get their burst out. Also "pure dps" scourge is a joke, it can't output anywhere near the amount of burst required for that role. And, it can't survive long enough for its AoE pressure to be effective.

OK ... none of that indicates there is a problem with Scourge. If the build in question can't survive long enough to be effective, then you need to choose a different build. I mean, I get you think you should be able to 'burst' someone with Scourge or even as AoE. I'm not sure how you concluded that's intended by how it's designed ... or that AoE bursting people and walking away from that with some level of survival is kitten that shouldn't exist in the game to begin with.

There is a theme with all these threads you make. Somehow you have convinced yourself anything you want to play should be 'effective' in whatever scenario you want to play it. That's just not realistic. 

Edited by Obtena.7952
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2 hours ago, Zex Anthon.8673 said:

How about a support build that can't support? Even with the buff to the healing power scaling you still need to use Desert Shroud and Sand Flare to pump out more than 6K barrier. So I can protect my allies for 5 seconds every 30 seconds assuming I can maintain the lifeforce. Compare that to the amount of raw healing that tempest and guardian are crapping out on classes with superior survivability.  

Then play tempest or guardian ... but certainly, what Tempest and Guardian can do has absolutely NOTHING to do with what Scourge is capable of. 

As a side note, it's nonsense to justify buffing average performance for a class by citing cases of exceptional performance of others. 

Edited by Obtena.7952
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9 hours ago, Zex Anthon.8673 said:

Tell me who should I fight then? Match Scourge up with any profession, any spec, it will lose 100% of the time.

I consider myself to be an average or slightly below average player. I’ve been running a celestial blood/curses scourge for the lols the past couple of weeks. In wvw 1v1s I’ve won maybe 30-40% of fights. Not great, but better than the 100% loss rate you’re suggesting. These fights have been against core guardians, reapers, dragon hunters, eles etc (ie melee or similar range adversaries) but specifically avoiding (where possible) rangers and thieves 😉

when havoc’ing with a handful of friends, we feel the positive difference my boon rips bring to the fight. 
 

I imagine someone who’s better at the game would have better results, of course. Lastly as comparison, when I run a celestial death magic harbinger my 1v1 win rate tends to be more like 60-70%
 

hope that helps!

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12 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

OK ... none of that indicates there is a problem with Scourge. If the build in question can't survive long enough to be effective, then you need to choose a different build. I mean, I get you think you should be able to 'burst' someone with Scourge or even as AoE. I'm not sure how you concluded that's intended by how it's designed ... or that AoE bursting people and walking away from that with some level of survival is kitten that shouldn't exist in the game to begin with.

There is a theme with all these threads you make. Somehow you have convinced yourself anything you want to play should be 'effective' in whatever scenario you want to play it. That's just not realistic. 

Please give me a viable Scourge build for PvP or Small Scale WvW. The problem isn't that the build I'm using doesn't have survivability. The problem is you cannot build a Scourge to have survivability in the first place. And if you look at the numbers it checks out.

Max barrier output for various builds using Desert Shroud, Sand Flare, and Sand Cascade (cooldown is 30s base and 25s with SR/Traited on top of the unsustainable life force costs):

  • Carrion Amulet/Lynx Rune: 5348
  • Carrion Amulet/Lynx Rune w/ Blood Magic: 5896
  • Sage Amulet/Lynx Rune: 7173
  • Sage Amulet/Lynx Rune w/ Blood Magic: 7721
  • Sage Amulet/Flock Rune: 7813
  • Sage Amulet/Flock Rune w/ Blood Magic: 8360
  • Sage Amulet/Flock Rune w/ Blood Magic + Vital Persistence + Sandstorm Shroud: 10,660 (Likely hard cap)

Keep in mind you do not get the 50% damage reduction that core and reaper enjoy. You can count on at most 9% damage reduction at the start of the fight. If the fight goes long that drops to 3%, practically negligible. The average burst skill is between 5000 and 8000, with heavy bursts reaching 10,000 - 14,000 and combos exceeding 18,000. Even after applying the damage reduction from Blood as Sand and protection which you can get consistently from Death Magic. Your barrier still evaporates from one to two attacks.

Both core and reaper have better defense with reliable 50% damage reduction and large shroud health. Each has a respectable 10s window of vulnerability when they leave shroud. Barrier disappears in 5s whether you absorb an attack or not. Leaving you vulnerable for a whopping 30s before you can absorb another Single attack.

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13 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Then play tempest or guardian ... but certainly, what Tempest and Guardian can do has absolutely NOTHING to do with what Scourge is capable of. 

As a side note, it's nonsense to justify buffing average performance for a class by citing cases of exceptional performance of others. 

Forgive me for wanting a viable support class on my main profession...

As it stands Scourge cannot output enough barrier/healing to keep itself alive, as I outlined above. Let alone its teammates. It needs access to more barrier, more consistently, and the split between dps scourge and support scourge needs to be more dramatic to avoid the situation we had before.

Something like:

  • Barrier Scourge applies does not affect allies by default.
  • Sand Savant: Instead of striking enemies, Shades will heal allies standing within them. Barrier you apply is shared with nearby allies.

Boom. You can now buff the barrier on Sand Cascade so that it is actually useful without having the issue of dps scourges essentially being able to support their allies for free. You could through some Alacrity in too IDC.  

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1 hour ago, Zex Anthon.8673 said:

Forgive me for wanting a viable support class on my main profession...

As it stands Scourge cannot output enough barrier/healing to keep itself alive, as I outlined above. Let alone its teammates. It needs access to more barrier, more consistently, and the split between dps scourge and support scourge needs to be more dramatic to avoid the situation we had before.

Something like:

  • Barrier Scourge applies does not affect allies by default.
  • Sand Savant: Instead of striking enemies, Shades will heal allies standing within them. Barrier you apply is shared with nearby allies.

Boom. You can now buff the barrier on Sand Cascade so that it is actually useful without having the issue of dps scourges essentially being able to support their allies for free. You could through some Alacrity in too IDC.  

It's no secret that scourge is a design fail. We know this since 2017. The problem is, that ANet is generally not capable of designing specs in a way that it is possible to get access to a wide spectrum of roles. If a spec can do this (core guardian to some extent), then it happened by accident but not by competence.

Scourge can't drop its support and AOE in exchange for exceptional burst. Reaper can't drop exceptional AOE damage in exchange for ally buffing capabilities. The specs would need a complete rework, which is unrealistic as it would mean a huge time invest in spec design and rebalancing. ANet would basically have to start from scratch. Way to cost intensive.

Edited by KrHome.1920
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2 hours ago, Zex Anthon.8673 said:

Please give me a viable Scourge build for PvP or Small Scale WvW. The problem isn't that the build I'm using doesn't have survivability. The problem is you cannot build a Scourge to have survivability in the first place. And if you look at the numbers it checks out.

-- SNIP --

 

For WvW: Here's an example build (I use this with some tweaks): http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?PSABc2tjlNweYesPmJW0TevcA-zxQYhoAqRO%2FhkpEoXlQNjArNL6fWBA-e

And here's it in action (played by a better player than me!): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y22eM3ifujM

 

Edited by Somnolent.6379
clarified this is for WvW
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5 hours ago, Zex Anthon.8673 said:

Forgive me for wanting a viable support class on my main profession...

As it stands Scourge cannot output enough barrier/healing to keep itself alive, as I outlined above. Let alone its teammates. It needs access to more barrier, more consistently, and the split between dps scourge and support scourge needs to be more dramatic to avoid the situation we had before.

You don't need  forgiveness. Just a realistic perspective. What you want just isn't inline with how Scourge  is designed. Scourge cannot output enough barrier/healing to keep itself alive? That doesn't mean there is a problem here. I guess you didn't consider that outputting enough barrier/healing to keep itself alive, let alone it's team mates is really not it's intended function, given the changes the spec has gone through. 

The fact is that Scourge is a middling spec, mixes DPS and support to some degree, probably because of how Anet intends for it to work. That's a reasonable flavour and it's a flavour that some people like to play that don't like extreme options. If you want to play some kind of extreme team support or burst or AOE spec ... make better choices. 

 

 

Edited by Obtena.7952
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6 hours ago, Zex Anthon.8673 said:

Forgive me for wanting a viable support class on my main profession...

Looking at what you write, you want a support class with glass canon damage output and tank like survivability in competitive modes. So you basically want to unleash onto PvP players a "class" with high amount of boon hate, high area denial potential, realtively good condition output, some amount of support and bunker like survivability. Should I add stealth and mobility, maybe change punishments into traps in order to bring yet another "superior rune of the trapper is OP" wave of threads?

 

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