On Loss sPvP rewards need to be removed

[magickthief.6492]

14 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

50% Chance to waste 15min of your life sounds fun. 

 

You either win or lose at everything that matters in life. If you are being/existing in coast mode IRL, you are most certainly losing.

[Bunbury.8472]

6 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

   Sounds like a good way to increase (x2, x3) the already noticeable queues. Middle line will also dissapear and all matches would be a mix of silvers and plats, meshed together...

I love this forum.

they want to get rid of rewards for the losing team in ranked, discouraging PvP participation.

they want duo removed again, even tho it was added back by anet because a large amount of players quit when it was removed- especially higher rated players.

its like the goal is: how small can the pop get?

 

[DanAlcedo.3281]

13 hours ago, BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

I mean you’re already wasting 100% of your life so you can’t be wasting anymore than that.

True

[Hotride.2187]

I dont even play ranked. I've already scrapped the rewards in favor of actually having fun.

[Luthan.5236]

It would encourage more to "surrender early" (what I like to do sometimes). Yes ... winning will give you more and you get nothing for losing then. But instead of encouraging to "try hard" it might be more convenient to just rank down a a lot. (Then starting to play once in the easy matches in bronze lol.) After some winning ... repeating this.

With the extra pips for a close loss and for top stats ... current system is fine I think. Maybe it should give even more when losing - based on the points you gathered. For 50 vs. 500 ... not. But for the 480 vs. 500 they could give more instead of the small extra pip for close loss.

Would encourage to still play better even if you seem to lose. And less discouraging when you actually lost since you still get something.

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

13 hours ago, Bunbury.8472 said:

I love this forum.

they want to get rid of rewards for the losing team in ranked, discouraging PvP participation.

they want duo removed again, even tho it was added back by anet because a large amount of players quit when it was removed- especially higher rated players.

its like the goal is: how small can the pop get?

 

Cool to know how you feel on the matter.

As long as you are happy, kin. That's all that matters. 

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

I understand where the OP is coming from, but I don't think removing rewards is the way to go about it. It would just make losing feel even worse than it already does, and, like many have pointed out, would drive people away.

It's generally better to use positive reinforcement when you're trying to change behavior; i.e. use rewards instead of punishment. Want people to stop afking? Give more rewards for performance. A simple step in this direction would be to give an extra pip (or two) for each top stat you get. Get stuck with a bunch of lower rated players on your team and hard carry them, getting all the top stats? Big payday for you (you should also gain more/lose less rating based on your high performance). Sit in spawn and do nothing? Get very little.

As to the problem with bots; they will always be a problem in some form or another until ANet cracks down on them. Removing rewards is not the answer.

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

1 hour ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

I understand where the OP is coming from, but I don't think removing rewards is the way to go about it. It would just make losing feel even worse than it already does, and, like many have pointed out, would drive people away.

It would drive people away and not players, that's a very important distinction to make.
People who AFK and bot the game aren't actually playing it.

1 hour ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

It's generally better to use positive reinforcement when you're trying to change behavior; i.e. use rewards instead of punishment.

That's contradictory to basic common sense and everything else you wrote.

To common sense because reinforcement is defined as: "the process of encouraging or establishing a belief or pattern of behavior, especially by encouragement or reward." The exact polar opposite of discouragement. Think criminals; we don't give them positive reinforcement(most of the time), we punish and condemn them and for good reason.

To everything else you wrote, because you're telling us to trust to hope that Arenanet will correct the issue, meaning you want to see the bad behavior punished, but here you are saying it should be encouraged and rewarded.

1 hour ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Want people to stop afking? Give more rewards for performance. A simple step in this direction would be to give an extra pip (or two) for each top stat you get. Get stuck with a bunch of lower rated players on your team and hard carry them, getting all the top stats? Big payday for you (you should also gain more/lose less rating based on your high performance). Sit in spawn and do nothing? Get very little.

Doubling down on the rewards for effort will do nothing to change the fact that people can be rewarded for applying 0 effort.
By earning all top stats and getting the near-victory bonus, someone who put in actual work would stand to gain ~9 pips just from that effort alone, and even in a loss.

This is something people could already achieve, if they would just try, and yet many-many do not.

And you could double, triple, or even quadruple the rewards for effort. Freebie rewards will always be unfair to the players actually pursuing those rewards.

If the road is easy, the destination is worthless 🙏

1 hour ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

As to the problem with bots; they will always be a problem in some form or another until ANet cracks down on them. Removing rewards is not the answer.

I can appreciate you handling this matter with care and respect afforded to your fellow player, but I can assure you this most definitely is the answer. Arenanet has had years, we're talking almost a full decade to crack down on AFKs and bots, and they never have.

There's a point where the virtue of patience is shattered and becomes complacency and I think it safe to say that point has been reached.

Removing the freebie reward; given for absolutely nothing other than presence alone, would protect Ranked autonomously. They could also add that reward to Unranked as compensation, as the casual mode is exactly where the casual's reward belongs.

[Kozumi.5816]

On 5/23/2023 at 9:17 PM, BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

Title, the only reason people afk farm and bot sPvP, if they removed on loss rewards people would actually play the game since they wont ban anyone that's exploiting the system.

Even less people would queue. Terrible idea.

[Zuko.7132]

On the flipside, you could just increase the rewards for winning by 100%. Bots will still be around, but players would be sweatier. Don't know if that's a good thing, but it's a thing.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

4 hours ago, Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

That's contradictory to basic common sense and everything else you wrote.

To common sense because reinforcement is defined as: "the process of encouraging or establishing a belief or pattern of behavior, especially by encouragement or reward." The exact polar opposite of discouragement. Think criminals; we don't give them positive reinforcement(most of the time), we punish and condemn them and for good reason.

To everything else you wrote, because you're telling us to trust to hope that Arenanet will correct the issue, meaning you want to see the bad behavior punished, but here you are saying it should be encouraged and rewarded.

I think you misunderstood me.

You use positive reinforcement to promote behaviors that you want to see. In this case, that's putting effort into the game. Positive reinforcement is generally better received than negative reinforcement, i.e. punishing bad behavior or behavior you don't want to see. Both have their place. But if you're trying to make people care about the game and actually try, they're more likely to actually do that if they are rewarded for doing so rather than punishing them for not trying. I recommend using positive reinforcement to motivate people playing the game.

On the other hand, botting is cheating, against TOS, and ruins the game for everyone. You can't motivate bots to be better people, so the appropriate response is to try to crack down on botting and ban those accounts.

Both positive and negative reinforcement have a role to play here.

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

27 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

I think you misunderstood me.

You use positive reinforcement to promote behaviors that you want to see. In this case, that's putting effort into the game.

Nah man ain't no misunderstanding, more of a disagreement. People putting 0 effort is something I don't want to see, therefore I am vehemently against the idea of people being rewarded for it. 

I can agree that increasing the rewards for effort IE top stats, the near-victory bonus is positive reinforcement, fair enough.

But I also think rewarding people just for being there is positive reinforcement of bad behavior and that's more or less what I'm trying to say.

27 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Positive reinforcement is generally better received than negative reinforcement, i.e. punishing bad behavior or behavior you don't want to see. Both have their place. But if you're trying to make people care about the game and actually try, they're more likely to actually do that if they are rewarded for doing so rather than punishing them for not trying. I recommend using positive reinforcement to motivate people playing the game.

The pips given for doing absolutely nothing and just showing up are nothing but positive reinforcement for bad behavior that most players don't want to see. If anyone was playing Ranked to actually compete, trying to climb the ladder, trying to get better, it is a total insult to those players that try when people toss their games and get paid for doing so.

That's why I say that trash belongs in Unranked because it doesn't matter if people want to play for casual rewards there. 

If people didn't get rewarded just for showing up, then there would be very little incentive to AFK and bot beyond just pure spite. If you pay the AFK and bots just for being there, then obviously they're going to keep doing it.

27 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

On the other hand, botting is cheating, against TOS, and ruins the game for everyone. You can't motivate bots to be better people, so the appropriate response is to try to crack down on botting and ban those accounts.

The question then becomes; when? It has been almost 10 years. That's longer than half the experienced mortal lifespan for most of this game's playerbase and even having been there through most of them, never seen 1 AFKer go punished. To the contrary, I see a lot of repeat AFKers. People that have actually become notorious for giving up.

Ever get into a game and the first chat message you read is: "Everyone pls report X.#### they are known thrower" ?

Even as a man of faith, I see that as nothing more than fooling one's self. Arenanet is never going to do anything about it, but by either removing the reward for nothing or moving it over to Unranked, that would help reduce the amount of AFKs and bots in Ranked autonomously.

It would also give people a reason to queue for Unranked. No more competitive and casual players butting heads either.

27 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Both positive and negative reinforcement have a role to play here.

I think AFKing and the application of 0 effort should only receive negative reinforcement if it violates TOS, but maybe that's just me.

[Shagie.7612]

what would actually happen is the afks/rage quitters would be more likely to give up and afk immediately, to try and get out of a match they consider a loss faster
this is some cursed monkey paw kinda wish

yet again, the only good solution is to actually punish people and every time people here try to come up with any other solution they end up with something that sucks

 

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

It says a lot about the state of PvP when the remaining playerbase is this averse to effort and actually playing PvP.

Have fun waiting for Arenanet to crack down on AFKing and botting. If the past decade is anything to go by, then you've got quite the wait ahead of you. Don't worry though, I'm sure they're on their way.

Edited May 26, 2023 by Multicolorhipster.9751

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

On 5/24/2023 at 9:07 PM, Bunbury.8472 said:

I love this forum.

they want to get rid of rewards for the losing team in ranked, discouraging PvP participation.

they want duo removed again, even tho it was added back by anet because a large amount of players quit when it was removed- especially higher rated players.

its like the goal is: how small can the pop get?

 

Removing rewards on loss would actually encourage players to participate in the match instead of AFK and bot(fun fact those aren’t actual players so wouldn’t be missed from the population) 

[Bladestrom.6425]

On 5/26/2023 at 4:51 PM, Gravitron.7982 said:

It sounds like it, because the way I described it is reality. I described it exactly how it is in real life. 

Free Players = lower power level
Paid players = higher power level

It's pretty clear cut I think. 

 

23 hours ago, Gravitron.7982 said:

Its your choice to either play at the same power level as other players, or play with an inherent disadvantage. You're free to play how you want! But Core specs are empirically interior to eSpecs when you compare their power levels. 

F2P players are empirically at a power level disadvantage that cannot be overcome without opening their wallet. 

 

11 minutes ago, BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

Removing rewards on loss would actually encourage players to participate in the match instead of AFK and bot(fun fact those aren’t actual players so wouldn’t be missed from the population) 

It would also discourage new players/learning players from joining pvp.  No new blood is not going to help the PVP population. 

'Punishing' is  not motivating,. instead i think it would be better that Anet rewarded those that don't AFK or base camp.  High participation = get a bonus each fight perhaps.   Also boost the Top stat rewards to make it more fun even when in a clearly losing side.  Maybe even have some top stats that is across both teams.  

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

12 minutes ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

 

 

It would also discourage new players/learning players from joining pvp.  No new blood is not going to help the PVP population. 

'Punishing' is  not motivating,. instead i think it would be better that Anet rewarded those that don't AFK or base camp.  High participation = get a bonus each fight perhaps.   Also boost the Top stat rewards to make it more fun even when in a clearly losing side.  Maybe even have some top stats that is across both teams.  

Rewarding not playing the game mode demoralizes players that actually want to pvp and participate in the game mode causing them to quit, so they can remove rewards on loss how it used to be and also provide more rewards for winning/doing well in the match. But they have to get rid of the people not actually playing the game mode first to make anyone even care about sPvP. But this is all wishful thinking since Anet Devs don’t care about the game mode as has been true since 2015

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

Here's an idea for you all:

0 pips for loss

6 pips for close loss

10 pips for win

1 pip per stat category if you get at least 20% of your team's value (i.e., you "pull your weight" in that category).

1 additional pip per category if you got top stats in that category.

 

Also, you should lose less rating for a loss for each pip that you gain (the exact details would need to be fleshed out; just talking about the general principle here).

 

This does the following things:

1) No incentive to afk

2) rewards performance, not just winning

3) incentivizes players to keep trying hard even in a blowout loss so they will lose less rating.

 

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

1 hour ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Here's an idea for you all:

0 pips for loss

6 pips for close loss

10 pips for win

1 pip per stat category if you get at least 20% of your team's value (i.e., you "pull your weight" in that category).

1 additional pip per category if you got top stats in that category.

 

Also, you should lose less rating for a loss for each pip that you gain (the exact details would need to be fleshed out; just talking about the general principle here).

 

This does the following things:

1) No incentive to afk

2) rewards performance, not just winning

3) incentivizes players to keep trying hard even in a blowout loss so they will lose less rating.

This is actually a reasonable and practical solution you've come up with here.

The most important part would be removing the pips given just for being there. Just being there is not accomplishment. Just being there becomes less than an accomplishment when one contributes nothing and makes no effort to carry their weight.

This is what we need because Arenanet cannot be trusted to enforce their TOS, so we have to leave some to automation and rely on an honour system to sort them out. I have faith that players will be less toxic if they do not get paid to act as such.

[BrunoPuntzJones.5348]

I'm a casual pvper and if I got nothing for losing, I'd probably stop bothering to play it. With how frustrating it can feel with the vagaries of teammates, afkers, duo-queue etc. the idea that even when I was trying my best I got jack-all for it would feel even worse.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

1 hour ago, BrunoPuntzJones.5348 said:

I'm a casual pvper and if I got nothing for losing, I'd probably stop bothering to play it. With how frustrating it can feel with the vagaries of teammates, afkers, duo-queue etc. the idea that even when I was trying my best I got jack-all for it would feel even worse.

Removing rewards on loss would get rid of a large portion of the Afkers and bots

[Dickinson.7368]

That's not a half bad idea actually, they could actually increase win-rewards to make up for the lost rewards per hour for average Joe/solo-Q. Hell they could even double the rewards for winning or give current reward to winners with bonus for those with top stats.

The only ones who'll really feel a massive difference/will get discouraged to play will be bots/afk/30% winrates.
In my book its a win-win.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

5 hours ago, Dickinson.7368 said:

That's not a half bad idea actually, they could actually increase win-rewards to make up for the lost rewards per hour for average Joe/solo-Q. Hell they could even double the rewards for winning or give current reward to winners with bonus for those with top stats.

The only ones who'll really feel a massive difference/will get discouraged to play will be bots/afk/30% winrates.
In my book its a win-win.

This guy's smart. Rewarding people on the losing team that put in enough work to get top stats titles would encourage people on a losing team to do something (and compensate them for their time) without rewarding bots. 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

18 hours ago, BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

Removing rewards on loss would get rid of a large portion of the Afkers and bots

The guy just told you if he queued and got nothing for his time he wouldn't play. What is the point of an adjustment bent on removing the bots/afkers if you also discourage the people who would otherwise actually play the game mode, especially if the population is so low that queues have a 50/50 shot at being a wash? 

The solution needs to be more nuanced than this. See above.

Edited May 30, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Gibson.4036]

On 5/28/2023 at 3:46 PM, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Here's an idea for you all:

0 pips for loss

6 pips for close loss

10 pips for win

1 pip per stat category if you get at least 20% of your team's value (i.e., you "pull your weight" in that category).

1 additional pip per category if you got top stats in that category.

 

Also, you should lose less rating for a loss for each pip that you gain (the exact details would need to be fleshed out; just talking about the general principle here).

 

This does the following things:

1) No incentive to afk

2) rewards performance, not just winning

3) incentivizes players to keep trying hard even in a blowout loss so they will lose less rating.

 

Quoting because this kind of thing is so much better than "no reward for losses". People already give up too early for stupidly little reason. They need incentive to keep playing and at least trying to pull a close game and get credit for participating.