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Jade Sea Demon - Kanaxai - Spoilers included about 'What Lies Within'


circuitnerd.5863

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I'm sure this has been discussed many times before but... I'm thinking that the Demon under the Jade Sea causing all this nightmare stuff is Kanaxai. And the Ravenous Wanderer is just a manifestation or projection of itself. Like a puppet of sorts. Also we got that Oni curse thing at the end of the meta which ties in with Kanaxai as well. Lastly all the emotional torment stuff is exactly how he works. He brings all this sort of despair and madness. Anyways, just throwing this out there. 

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I hope they leave the current issue be its own thing, being disconnected from GW1 as much as possible.

The current developers should just do their own stuff and avoid touching GW1 lore as much as possible (and this includes named characters).

Edited by Fueki.4753
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2 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

I hope they leave the current issue be its own thing, being disconnected from GW1 as much as possible.

The current developers should just do their own stuff and avoid touching GW1 lore as much as possible (and this includes named characters).

That ship has sailed more than a decade ago, at launch. Besides, how do you write stories for 11 years in a world that you've already created and told other stories in? It would just be contrived to avoid anything GW1 related, any callbacks, any geographical locations, any historical figures, any past events, any mythology, any culture. Should they remove all the races because they were in GW1 as well? No Cantha, no Kryta, no Maguuma, no Elona, no Shiverpeaks, etc.? It's all in GW1. This falls squarely in the category "Too little, too late".

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38 minutes ago, TheNecrosanct.4028 said:

That ship has sailed more than a decade ago, at launch. Besides, how do you write stories for 11 years in a world that you've already created and told other stories in? It would just be contrived to avoid anything GW1 related, any callbacks, any geographical locations, any historical figures, any past events, any mythology, any culture. Should they remove all the races because they were in GW1 as well? No Cantha, no Kryta, no Maguuma, no Elona, no Shiverpeaks, etc.? It's all in GW1. This falls squarely in the category "Too little, too late".

I specifically wrote "as much as possible", which you even quoted.

Locations and races obviously can't be avoided. History can be relegated to side notes and monuments that flesh out the background lore without significantly affecting the main plot.

But characters and story lines definitely can - and should - be avoided. Not every story line in a sequel game needs to relate to something from the predecessor.

And the culture you mentioned already has completely been wiped off of Cantha. Kurzick and Luxon are gone. Kaineng is gone in all but its name. Shing Jea is nothing like it was in GW1. Instead, most of Cantha has been converted into a jade junk dystopia.

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Personally i hate to see how money was wasted on voice actors for dialogue i will never listen to because of how cringe the story was and how boring the missions were.

I complained how awful the eod story was, and how it was completely unskippable at part, what the current devs said hold my beer, ill just make an entire story line that is a walking simulator, where you waypoint everywhere to do nothing, move crates, read books, and after fighting some elementals you think they are going to doing something, they go back to walking sim mode by collecting orbs.

If this was going to be the only update to eod, it needed to be great. Not a game I can get off steam green light. 

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11 hours ago, circuitnerd.5863 said:

I'm sure this has been discussed many times before but... I'm thinking that the Demon under the Jade Sea causing all this nightmare stuff is Kanaxai. And the Ravenous Wanderer is just a manifestation or projection of itself. Like a puppet of sorts. Also we got that Oni curse thing at the end of the meta which ties in with Kanaxai as well. Lastly all the emotional torment stuff is exactly how he works. He brings all this sort of despair and madness. Anyways, just throwing this out there. 

10 hours ago, Randulf.7614 said:

Kanaxai has been the guess since the last episode. But I’m not even sure anymore after this episode if the demon thing isn’t all done and dusted. 
 

You can read more about the Kanaxai speculation in the lore subforum tho if you want

This episode does feel like a wrap-up of the demon arc, but I have some suspicions that's not actually the case. And then some counter-suspicions to my suspicions, lol.

If it were truly the end of the demon threat, why would they suddenly introduce demon attacks to the og Canthan maps? If there's one pattern Anet likes to repeat, it's that whenever they update older maps with new lore/gameplay, it usually has something to do with a future plotline.

Plus those constructs in that one concept art kinda look like corrupted jade mechs to me, and we still haven't addressed a few key issues:

  • Origins of the haze
  • The jade changing colour, and what it has to do with haze and demon magic
  • Those demon ambushes can't be good for Canthan citizens, how do we get rid of them??
  • The crazy Jade Brotherhood researcher guy who met an intelligent and scheming someone or something that specifically wants its existence hidden-- maybe the real villain we'll be facing next expac?

But, from what little we got from the teaser video, there's definitely the sound of wings flapping. I don't think there's ever been a case of demons with wings before, which is why I'm so hesitant to believe it's Kanaxai or any other demon we already know about.

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21 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

I specifically wrote "as much as possible", which you even quoted.

Locations and races obviously can't be avoided. History can be relegated to side notes and monuments that flesh out the background lore without significantly affecting the main plot.

But characters and story lines definitely can - and should - be avoided. Not every story line in a sequel game needs to relate to something from the predecessor.

And the culture you mentioned already has completely been wiped off of Cantha. Kurzick and Luxon are gone. Kaineng is gone in all but its name. Shing Jea is nothing like it was in GW1. Instead, most of Cantha has been converted into a jade junk dystopia.

Then why should it be avoided? Why should a game taking place in a previously established world not reference anything previously established? Should they just leave the 250 years between GW and GW2 empty? As if the cultures of today aren't influenced and formed due to what happened in the past. To me this sounds like saying "I don't want "The Lord of the Rings" to talk about any of the previously established characters or storylines from "The Hobbit". The past is an integral part of the present and future. A lot present day factors are directly influenced by/direct consequences of what happened in the past. So ignoring it in your stories just doesn't make any sense.

Based on your viewpoint there must be a lot of things in GW2 that you don't like, since throughout the years they've picked up plenty of threads they left in GW. The bloodstone, Livia, the Dwarves, Joko, Kormir, Koss. The entire arc of the dragon cycle started in GW. There are so many quests in the open world that call back to GW. The entire game is built on the foundations of what was established then. By relegating the history of the world to mere side notes and monuments only the most intrepid of adventurers would ever find is doing a disservice to the world and lore that was created. It is a growing world that connects a lot of things from the past to the present, which is only logical. They do not exist as separate entities.

I could be wrong, but this feels like a case of "GW was amazing and GW2 doesn't come close to that, so leave GW lore alone". If that is the case, then ignoring a disappointing sequel and only enjoying the previous instalment is a much more reasonable response than saying the creators of the fictional universe should leave the lore from that instalment alone and relegate it to the barest minimum of background information. So yeah, I'm kind of curious as to where this whole wish to separate two games that take place in the same world comes from.

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2 hours ago, TheNecrosanct.4028 said:

Then why should it be avoided? Why should a game taking place in a previously established world not reference anything previously established? Should they just leave the 250 years between GW and GW2 empty? As if the cultures of today aren't influenced and formed due to what happened in the past. To me this sounds like saying "I don't want "The Lord of the Rings" to talk about any of the previously established characters or storylines from "The Hobbit". The past is an integral part of the present and future. A lot present day factors are directly influenced by/direct consequences of what happened in the past. So ignoring it in your stories just doesn't make any sense.

Based on your viewpoint there must be a lot of things in GW2 that you don't like, since throughout the years they've picked up plenty of threads they left in GW. The bloodstone, Livia, the Dwarves, Joko, Kormir, Koss. The entire arc of the dragon cycle started in GW. There are so many quests in the open world that call back to GW. The entire game is built on the foundations of what was established then. By relegating the history of the world to mere side notes and monuments only the most intrepid of adventurers would ever find is doing a disservice to the world and lore that was created. It is a growing world that connects a lot of things from the past to the present, which is only logical. They do not exist as separate entities.

I could be wrong, but this feels like a case of "GW was amazing and GW2 doesn't come close to that, so leave GW lore alone". If that is the case, then ignoring a disappointing sequel and only enjoying the previous instalment is a much more reasonable response than saying the creators of the fictional universe should leave the lore from that instalment alone and relegate it to the barest minimum of background information. So yeah, I'm kind of curious as to where this whole wish to separate two games that take place in the same world comes from.

Why does everything need to connect to past story lines? Instead of bolting on to the stories of other people, they should do their own stories. Their story-telling should not be tied down to the works of the past.

Also, not every player wants to see old things being revisited and potentially being ret-conned. Some of us want to see completely fresh and unknown things, that hopefully will be less of a shiny mess than the jade junk.

Edited by Fueki.4753
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On 5/24/2023 at 7:23 AM, Randulf.7614 said:

But I’m not even sure anymore after this episode if the demon thing isn’t all done and dusted.

Quoting Gorrik: "Case closed."

As lame as it seems, I'm certain this is it. ANet themselves stated that "What Lies Within" is the last chapter of the EoD cycle.

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2 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

Quoting Gorrik: "Case closed."

As lame as it seems, I'm certain this is it. ANet themselves stated that "What Lies Within" is the last chapter of the EoD cycle.

Clawed lobster men from beneath the sea. Calling it now. All hail the Deep Ones!

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On 5/24/2023 at 12:33 PM, bluecheeseplate.2753 said:

This episode does feel like a wrap-up of the demon arc, but I have some suspicions that's not actually the case. And then some counter-suspicions to my suspicions, lol.

We will deal with demons (and maybe Haze aka "ley-line + demon poop") in the future, but there's no indication that it'll be related to Kanaxai or the Deep. This subplot seems pretty wrapped up.

On 5/24/2023 at 12:33 PM, bluecheeseplate.2753 said:

If it were truly the end of the demon threat, why would they suddenly introduce demon attacks to the og Canthan maps?

Keeping in mind that "technically" those demons would be unleashed to Cantha before the Commander dealt with the Ravenous Traveler...

It was probably done just to add a bit more substance to this release, like the various adventures.

On 5/24/2023 at 12:33 PM, bluecheeseplate.2753 said:

Plus those constructs in that one concept art kinda look like corrupted jade mechs to me, and we still haven't addressed a few key issues:

  • Origins of the haze
  • The jade changing colour, and what it has to do with haze and demon magic
  • Those demon ambushes can't be good for Canthan citizens, how do we get rid of them??
  • The crazy Jade Brotherhood researcher guy who met an intelligent and scheming someone or something that specifically wants its existence hidden-- maybe the real villain we'll be facing next expac?

I dunno, the first two points are pretty solidly addressed within WLB. Haze is Ley-Lines being mixed with demon residue, which was caused by the Ravenous Wanderer camping at a ley-line nexus. The Wanderer caused (that pocket of) Haze. And the jade changed color because it was absorbing the Haze / pure ley-lines - very similar to how it changed color when it absorbed Void in the Jade Quarry event.

That last one though, is definitely left unanswered. Which is part of my disappointment of WLW - because that isn't the only case of "the history of this place" and "the true nature of the demon" being talked about by the Jade Brotherhood NPCs. But all hints indicate it referred to, well, the Ravenous Wanderer. And the fractal that's coming in June should answer who he is exactly - despite the fact that should have been answered in this update, even if just by namedrop (-coughKanaxaicough-).

On 5/24/2023 at 12:33 PM, bluecheeseplate.2753 said:

But, from what little we got from the teaser video, there's definitely the sound of wings flapping. I don't think there's ever been a case of demons with wings before, which is why I'm so hesitant to believe it's Kanaxai or any other demon we already know about.

I don't hear wings. I hear unsteady footsteps in something that packs, like snow or ash. There's a level of inconsistency in it to me that speaks "not wings", which are typically consistent in pacing.

That said, we have had MANY demons with wings. Imps are demons, for example, as are fleshreavers. And in GW1, you have Margonite Paragons and certain Nightmares in addition to those, and while not wings several torment demons have back appendages.

Edited by Konig Des Todes.2086
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On 5/25/2023 at 9:14 AM, Fueki.4753 said:

Why does everything need to connect to past story lines? Instead of bolting on to the stories of other people, they should do their own stories. Their story-telling should not be tied down to the works of the past.

Also, not every player wants to see old things being revisited and potentially being ret-conned. Some of us want to see completely fresh and unknown things, that hopefully will be less of a shiny mess than the jade junk.

I can agree here. GW2 has, in literally every storyline, tied back to GW1 in some manner. Either it's visiting the same places or as easter eggs to the old plots, which is 100% reasonable, but all too often it's bringing up the same plots - even if GW1 firmly closed those very plots, like The Deep - or even going to places that GW1 fans wanted to explore (e.g., Orr).

IBS feels almost exactly a beat for beat of Eye of the North with just a bit extra added. From locations visited to the actual plothooks explored. PoF is just Nightfall revamped, and this even got heavily criticized. EoD even retconned some of the buildup to Cantha that was produced in 2007-2010 just to repeat subplots of Factions (uniting the rival factions of jade and echovald, main character is step-sibling to emperor/empress) and catering to the gw1 element and interest of tengu.

We've not had a single plot that has taken us to fully new lands either - the closest we get is Sandswept Isles (though technically Dajkah Inlet was part of a challenge mission in GW1). And even after ending the long standing Elder Dragon plot to go into new narratives ArenaNet chose... more GW1 nostalgia. By literally "somehow, palpatine returned" us with that ley-line resurrecting demon (who I am still convinced is actually Kanaxai and we'll get this "revelation" in the fractal next month).

It's high time that GW2 expands Tyria, rather than just revisit old plots Disney style.

Edited by Konig Des Todes.2086
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  • 2 weeks later...
On 5/28/2023 at 10:46 PM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I can agree here. GW2 has, in literally every storyline, tied back to GW1 in some manner. Either it's visiting the same places or as easter eggs to the old plots, which is 100% reasonable, but all too often it's bringing up the same plots - even if GW1 firmly closed those very plots, like The Deep - or even going to places that GW1 fans wanted to explore (e.g., Orr).

IBS feels almost exactly a beat for beat of Eye of the North with just a bit extra added. From locations visited to the actual plothooks explored. PoF is just Nightfall revamped, and this even got heavily criticized. EoD even retconned some of the buildup to Cantha that was produced in 2007-2010 just to repeat subplots of Factions (uniting the rival factions of jade and echovald, main character is step-sibling to emperor/empress) and catering to the gw1 element and interest of tengu.

We've not had a single plot that has taken us to fully new lands either - the closest we get is Sandswept Isles (though technically Dajkah Inlet was part of a challenge mission in GW1). And even after ending the long standing Elder Dragon plot to go into new narratives ArenaNet chose... more GW1 nostalgia. By literally "somehow, palpatine returned" us with that ley-line resurrecting demon (who I am still convinced is actually Kanaxai and we'll get this "revelation" in the fractal next month).

It's high time that GW2 expands Tyria, rather than just revisit old plots Disney style.

I agree in part, but revisiting locations in the same world should not be such a strange thing. Locations don't suddenly become irrelevant just because we went to them in the previous game. There are still many regions in elona and cantha which were never explored and could have been quite interesting to see. 

The issue we agree I believe is on is how they write/implement the story etc, which I feel would be an issue regardless of whether it's new or old because of how gun ho they have been about established lore and how things work to the point of creating various inconsistencies. 

I kinda get it though, personally when gw2 was first announced I was really disappointed they chose to start in Tyria and not say Cantha or Elona, because so much had already been covered there and there were quite a lot of potential beginning stories for a character coming from those areas compared to Tyria.

But we got what we got. If anything I feel we have too much Tyria and rather see more Cantha, Elona and other regions.

As for stories mostly agree aside from adding references and in world nods, the exception being ones which could exist as till this point. We see that already with the flame legion and the white mantle.

Edited by Serephen.3420
Small typo
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10 hours ago, Serephen.3420 said:

I agree in part, but revisiting locations in the same world should not be such a strange thing. Locations don't suddenly become irrelevant just because we went to them in the previous game. There are still many regions in elona and cantha which were never explored and could have been quite interesting to see. 

Well as I said, it's 100% reasonable to revisit old places. The problem comes when a vast majority of the locations have been revisits... And I don't mean same continents, because as you said, there are still many regions in Elona and Cantha which were never explored and could be quite interesting to see. Instead, we're exploring less of these places from GW1 before moving on, since the open world element of GW2 is actually smaller per storyline than GW1.

Revisiting Elona? Good.

Revisiting only roughly half of Nightfall's Elona with just a tiny bit extra? Bad.

The fact that so much of That_Shaman's overlay map has so much overlapping, with so few areas in GW2 not in GW1, is what I mean. It's rather telling when the most lack-of-overlap comes from core and Season 3. I mean, in all of PoF+S4, only Sandswept Isles and Desert Highlands can be truly argued to be "new". Even Dragonfall, created in the story, has 2/3rd being revisiting locations.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 5/24/2023 at 6:44 PM, FortnitemareCourt.8354 said:

So was this whole Gayla delves story: We mined Jade, found haze, a demon (Oni) attacked peoples mind and we destroyed him with emotional outbursts?

Like, is that IT? Am I missing something or was this story that thin and simple?

I'm with you... I was like too, was that it?? Really??? 

 

This is almost as bad as the Dragon Response Mission chapters... 🤢🤮

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On 6/18/2023 at 10:55 AM, Kalavier.1097 said:

Feels like people vastly over-stated the scope of the two story episodes and the implications of it.

While I don't disagree in general - WLB overhyped a lot of the community - I feel WLW was still underwhelming in its quantity and quality of content regardless of hype and expectations.

Edited by Konig Des Todes.2086
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10 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

While I don't disagree in general - WLB overhyped a lot of the community - I feel WLW was still underwhelming in its quantity and quality of content regardless of hype and expectations.

I can agree to the latter part, in certain aspects.

But seeing people complain about how this wasn't some huge important demon lord or world-changing oni attack is pretty funny because even WLB established it's just a problem in this singular mine. An important problem to deal with, but not one that threatens the world.

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  tl;dr from my post in the Fractal thread:

Generally:

  • tie in with Gyala Delve and WLB/WLW: corruption effects on naga and mini-boss, journal entries describing similar happenings
  • foreshadow parts of Secrets of the Obscure?

Specifically:

  • Kanaxai is back and he has a unique model. He's not the Ravenous Wanderer.
  • Captain Thess dies. Not sure if anything else happens to him/if Kanaxai does something to him that might hint at Thess becoming the Ravenous Wanderer
  • Kanaxai introduces himself as the "Scythe of House Aurkus" during the fight - a Kryptis faction?
  • Kanaxai instantly recognisable from Factions but with more details similar to other GW2-era demons (grotesque growths, extra limb on chest)
  • A letter comments on the weird flora and funga encountered the deeper we went - similar to ??? in Jahai Bluffs and unexpected models in Gyala Delve
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20 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

imo no

he didn't seem aware he was in a fractal or the like

other fractal inhabitants are very interactive - Dessa, for example. Ai and her daughter in Sunqua Peaks. Arkk in all three of his fractals.

Yeah, but this just felt different. The way he talked plus the physical tears in the fractal Dessa mentioned gave me the sense that this thing had gone off script somehow 

Edited by Mediahead.3542
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