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The Oni Boss in Gyala Delve (spoilers?)


sevenDEADLY.5281

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Is the Oni Boss supposed to be the big bad that drove the quaggan and the krait from the ocean?  I know there was all this mystery surrounding what it was that was driving the creatures out of the depths once it was discovered that it WASN'T the deep sea dragon (Soo Won). Then there were NPCs in New Kaineng that alluded to what the big bad could be since it couldn't have been Soo Won.  Then the first part of the new story was labeled "What lies beneath" which made some people believe it was going to explore what that big bad was.  But now since that story has wrapped up and it was just some demon feeding off negative emotion, it feels like that CAN'T POSSIBLY be what the big bad was that was almost as powerful as an elder dragon driving all the races out from the deep sea?  At least god I hope not.  Very anti climactic if it was. 

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I don't think the Oni Boss is the 'big bad'.  I feel like it's more like a champion or minion of the 'big bad'.  From Guild Wars there are a couple of origins proposed, from Oni originating in The Mists to Oni being Outcasts (an enemy NPC group in GW) that are in an advanced state of corruption and insanity caused by Kanaxai's influence.  Now, I can see Kanaxai, who actually was a demon, being the big bad, or another demon akin to Kanaxai.

The present story felt like a winding down, with a few hints of something to come.  I suppose when we move into the next expansion those hints will come to fruition, and we'll find out the truth behind what the Oni are or who (or what) is directing them.  Maybe?

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It is unrelated to the big bad in the ocean, which should always have been left as the deep sea dragon in my mind. The teasers for the expac showed silhouettes of clawed creatures. Maybe that’s related. Maybe it’s a dropped thread. Either way, it was never anything to do with this.

This is what happens when they don’t explain what an Oni is in game for those who missed gw1 (or skipped mythology class)

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On 5/25/2023 at 8:55 PM, sevenDEADLY.5281 said:

Is the Oni Boss supposed to be the big bad that drove the quaggan and the krait from the ocean?  I know there was all this mystery surrounding what it was that was driving the creatures out of the depths once it was discovered that it WASN'T the deep sea dragon (Soo Won). Then there were NPCs in New Kaineng that alluded to what the big bad could be since it couldn't have been Soo Won.  Then the first part of the new story was labeled "What lies beneath" which made some people believe it was going to explore what that big bad was.  But now since that story has wrapped up and it was just some demon feeding off negative emotion, it feels like that CAN'T POSSIBLY be what the big bad was that was almost as powerful as an elder dragon driving all the races out from the deep sea?  At least god I hope not.  Very anti climactic if it was. 

Not even close, no.

The Jade Sea is an inland sea and completely different from the Unending Ocean. Whatever mysterious darkness that was originally designed to be the deep sea elder dragon before it got retconned into Soo-Won is, it is miles away from and north to Cantha. There is, and never was, any coonnection between the ocean's deepest depths, and some random undersea cave of a petrified inland sea.

Onis were servants to the nightmare demon Kanaxai in GW1, and there was a ton of hints in What Lies Beneath that the Ravenous Traveler was, in fact, Kanaxai returned. Unfortunately What Lies Within failed to deliver on these hints of the Ravenous Traveler's true name and origin that was set up in the ambient jade brotherhood dialogue or the jade brotherhood audio recordings.

It's a rather sad element of this double update. WLB treated this as some big mystery when GW1 had all the answers so to anyone who opened a history book (as one Jade Brotherhood NPC puts it), the answers were obvious. But to those who were just playing GW2 without GW1 knowledge, there was zero explanation for who what when where why and how.

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10 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Onis were servants to the nightmare demon Kanaxai in GW1, and there was a ton of hints in What Lies Beneath that the Ravenous Traveler was, in fact, Kanaxai returned. Unfortunately What Lies Within failed to deliver on these hints of the Ravenous Traveler's true name and origin that was set up in the ambient jade brotherhood dialogue or the jade brotherhood audio recordings.

It's a rather sad element of this double update. WLB treated this as some big mystery when GW1 had all the answers so to anyone who opened a history book (as one Jade Brotherhood NPC puts it), the answers were obvious. But to those who were just playing GW2 without GW1 knowledge, there was zero explanation for who what when where why and how.

So it was obvious what was going to happen, but what you thought was going to happen didn't?

Because I'm pretty sure you were certain Kanaxai was getting revealed in this patch, but...that didn't happen. Are you saying that you believe the Ravenous Wanderer is still Kanaxai, but they just didn't say so explicitly? Could you clarify what you mean when you say that "What Lies Within failed to deliver on these hints of the Ravenous [Wanderer's] true name and origin."

I'm not sure what failed to be delivered, considering Kanaxai was taken care of back in GW1 and there was no certainty that the events in Gyala were because of his influence. Was it not simply the community failing to realize Kanaxai was already gone? Or perhaps the community's failure to understand the demon presence in Gyala isn't a one-off and could play into future big-picture narrative?

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7 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

Because I'm pretty sure you were certain Kanaxai was getting revealed in this patch, but...that didn't happen. Are you saying that you believe the Ravenous Wanderer is still Kanaxai, but they just didn't say so explicitly? Could you clarify what you mean when you say that "What Lies Within failed to deliver on these hints of the Ravenous [Wanderer's] true name and origin."

I'm not sure what failed to be delivered, considering Kanaxai was taken care of back in GW1 and there was no certainty that the events in Gyala were because of his influence. Was it not simply the community failing to realize Kanaxai was already gone? Or perhaps the community's failure to understand the demon presence in Gyala isn't a one-off and could play into future big-picture narrative?

I see you're trying to paint me as being unreasonable or self-contradictory by hyperfocusing on the Kanaxai part, but I believe I was clear in what I meant by saying WLW failed to deliver on the hints. Dialogue from various Jade Brotherhood was practically wink-wink-nudge-nudging us with the truth of the demon. But we didn't get that reveal. Regardless of whether my theory that it's Kanaxai is accurate or not.
You do not drop an encoded dialogue that says "I won't say your name", make an achievement for specifically finding that dialogue, and not follow up on that. You do not have multiple NPCs talking about "the history of this place" and not follow up on that history before the plot ends. You do not build up with forced exposure and give no pay-off of any kind. Not unless you're a hack of a writer.

And yes, expecting GW2 players to know lore only presented in GW1 would be bad writing. There's a reason why people who don't delve deep into lore criticize Season 3 and Path of Fire and the sudden revelations of Balthazar, White Mantle, Livia, Lazarus, and Joko, giving them the same exact reaction that people gave Dragon's Watch when meeting them for the first time in Season 2 while Season 1 was unavailable: "Who are these people, why does my character know them, and why should I care?"

And yes, I do still believe that it was Kanaxai - I was expecting that they'd namedrop him in this episode, without further explanation, and then do that explanation in the upcoming fractal stated to be about "the shadows under the Jade Sea". But now I guess they're saving the whole revelation, namedrop and all, for the fractal instead.
Which I would argue is bad writing as well, because you have the entire cast full of inquisitive characters - scientists and detectives - and not a single one bothered to ask the question "who is this demon" or "why is this demon here". Sure not important to the long run, but the thing about inquisitive people is that they investigate things that veer beyond the sole important minimal. And WLW didn't do that, despite WLB doing it.

Also, ANet said that the story in these two updates are one-offs. There will be tie ins to the next expansion, but it's not a direct connection (as evident by the firm closure of this plot). What those tie ins are still unknown, but to expect it to be the source of the Ravenous Wanderer or "the demon presence in Gyala" seems... unrealistic expectations.

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I mean, in general we haven't been interested in the names of demons that often, and the "Why is this demon here" was answered when it was discovered. It was feeding off/camping on the Ley-line. 

I think a common problem that some people perhaps walked into is treating the Ravenous Wanderer as a huge threat to all of Cantha/the world, expecting a big dramatic reveal of who it was or some plan, when really it wasn't that big of a threat overall, we just barged into it's house and it (and the other ONI) started using us for delicious snacking on without intending to leave at all.

Then we lured it up to the surface and killed it when it couldn't use the ley-line to quickly feed on and heal.

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5 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I see you're trying to paint me as being unreasonable or self-contradictory by hyperfocusing on the Kanaxai part, but I believe I was clear in what I meant by saying WLW failed to deliver on the hints. Dialogue from various Jade Brotherhood was practically wink-wink-nudge-nudging us with the truth of the demon. But we didn't get that reveal. Regardless of whether my theory that it's Kanaxai is accurate or not.

I only saw hints to the history of demonic and overall spooky things happening in this area. This of course is related to Kanaxai, but not necessarily solely because of his presence in this region specifically as an individual demonic entity. Perhaps this region has another connection to the Nightmare Realm and demons that transcends Kanaxai himself? Who knows.

8 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

You do not drop an encoded dialogue that says "I won't say your name", make an achievement for specifically finding that dialogue, and not follow up on that. You do not have multiple NPCs talking about "the history of this place" and not follow up on that history before the plot ends. You do not build up with forced exposure and give no pay-off of any kind. Not unless you're a hack of a writer.

Wow. So kind and constructive of you. 🙃

Could it be that players are drawing a connection, once again, to a specific past demonic entity like Kanaxai when perhaps there is a larger force (or entity) at work here? Maybe even a bigger baddie that would be considered Kanaxai's superior or master?

Who says we won't get a name of some entity communicating with the Brotherhood Consultant in the future? Did the plot end with this patch? Is GW2 done now?

That would be news to me.

I felt like they did a decent job at repackaging the GW1 lore that informs this region's history through the lens of the historical ambiguity that would be a hallmark of a realistic depiction of the general Canthan record of the events of GW1. Recall, we experienced Kanaxai personally as the hero of the first game, but that doesn't mean that Canthan historical records maintained a precise first-hand account of what happened there. For all we know, the only history that survived from that time was related to the Luxon histories about the Outcasts and such and lacked the clarity of a lasting primary source accounting of events.

I think it's good writing that they didn't have some unrealistically specific recounting of the events of the first game in this patch. If you want those precise details, GW1 is still a game you can play for that. We got the amount of exposition that was called for in order to root the story that was told in GW2 in the lore of Tyria as a whole, in my opinion.

24 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

And yes, I do still believe that it was Kanaxai - I was expecting that they'd namedrop him in this episode, without further explanation, and then do that explanation in the upcoming fractal stated to be about "the shadows under the Jade Sea". But now I guess they're saving the whole revelation, namedrop and all, for the fractal instead.

So, fractals typically take place in the past. Could they do a continuation of this story for the fractal? Sure. I'd be cool with them being flexible with the timeframe they draw from for fractals. Could it more likely be a reimagining of the fight with Kanaxai, or Kanaxai's origins, or maybe even have nothing to do with Kanaxai himself, but more specifically the reasons why this region below the Jade Sea would be a regular pit stop for hungry demons?

Who's to say?

I'm curious to find out, for sure.

27 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Also, ANet said that the story in these two updates are one-offs. There will be tie ins to the next expansion, but it's not a direct connection (as evident by the firm closure of this plot). What those tie ins are still unknown, but to expect it to be the source of the Ravenous Wanderer or "the demon presence in Gyala" seems... unrealistic expectations.

The tie-ins could be a lot of different things:

  1. Why are there abyssals and other nightmare creatures on Tyria again? Didn't we stabilize Tyria when Aurene became the one elder dragon? What could be the cause of their sudden (or maybe not sudden; who knows how long they've been down there below the Jade Sea) presence on Tyria once again?
  2. Why is everyone talking with someone else's voice? Who's making Chul-Moo laugh? Is that just what Haze corruption does to people or is there a more nefarious possession-type thing going on here? Who's behind that?
  3. What's with all the status effects related to Wing 4 and the Deepstone fractal? Is that just a coincidence, or perhaps an important hint at the directions for future narrative?
  4. Why is the Mallyx effect back on multiple characters from these patches? Is that Mallyx effect important? Is it related to the Cliffside fractal boss's similar effect? How do Margonites factor into this conversation about Oni, the Void, and the Haze?
  5. What's up with the Nightfall Torment Wurm-things petrified around this leyline? Is there an Abaddon connection to these events here? Who knows?
  6. What about the Ravenous Wanderer telling us it was "just passing through" and us remarking that it was scared? Was this maybe just a misplaced minor demon and not some intentional big bad?

I think if we allowed our expectations to match the depth of the content we get in GW2, then maybe the breadth of possibilities would expand for us as to what comes next.

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1 hour ago, mandala.8507 said:
  1. Why are there abyssals and other nightmare creatures on Tyria again? Didn't we stabilize Tyria when Aurene became the one elder dragon? What could be the cause of their sudden (or maybe not sudden; who knows how long they've been down there below the Jade Sea) presence on Tyria once again?
  2. Why is everyone talking with someone else's voice? Who's making Chul-Moo laugh? Is that just what Haze corruption does to people or is there a more nefarious possession-type thing going on here? Who's behind that?
  3. What's with all the status effects related to Wing 4 and the Deepstone fractal? Is that just a coincidence, or perhaps an important hint at the directions for future narrative?
  4. Why is the Mallyx effect back on multiple characters from these patches? Is that Mallyx effect important? Is it related to the Cliffside fractal boss's similar effect? How do Margonites factor into this conversation about Oni, the Void, and the Haze?
  5. What's up with the Nightfall Torment Wurm-things petrified around this leyline? Is there an Abaddon connection to these events here? Who knows?
  6. What about the Ravenous Wanderer telling us it was "just passing through" and us remarking that it was scared? Was this maybe just a misplaced minor demon and not some intentional big bad?

 

Wait huh. 2(ish), 3, 4, and 6 I don't get :O. When did the Ravenous wanderer talk to us? Or is some of that stuff from the extended gyala meta event? Because I haven't done that stuff yet personally.

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On 5/28/2023 at 12:03 PM, Kalavier.1097 said:

Wait huh. 2(ish), 3, 4, and 6 I don't get :O. When did the Ravenous wanderer talk to us? Or is some of that stuff from the extended gyala meta event? Because I haven't done that stuff yet personally.

2 is based on a meta-specific dialogue from Chul-Moo, yes.

3 is based on all the status effects on the player character's bar and on many of the enemies' bars as well. These don't always mean things, but when they're there for no particular gameplay reason, it stands to reason they're part of the environmental storytelling of the patch.

4 is one tier of significance higher than that, as the "Embrace the Darkness" visual effect that players get from the Mallyx revenant legend has returned and is on a few of the NPCs in this patch alongside an effect called "Dark Heart" whose description reads: "Corruption has seeped into this creature, causing it to emit waves of suffering." You can find this same visual effect on the Cliffside Fractal's Legendary Archdiviner.

6 is just a quote from the Ravenous Wanderer via Almorra's memory, when it says "I'm just passing through". Maybe this is just an awkward insert because they didn't have any better lines for this moment, but it struck me as odd and out of place in the whole ensemble. I was interpreting it as possibly the demon pleading for mercy or something; trying to haphazardly tell us via its link with our mind that it's only here because it had no other choice. And this fits with it's name, the Ravenous Wanderer. It's just a hungry vagabond demon that happened to be feasting on the leyline here for a spell.

And then of course our character mentions in the story mission at the end of What Lies Within with the big purple version of the demon that it's behaving like a cornered and scared animal, trying to become more visually threatening to scare away a predator. So combined with the "I'm just passing through" dialogue, it felt to me like there's a chance we were fighting a demon kind of minding its own business and simply existing how demons do, with no real desire to mess with us as long as we left it alone.

But now that we killed it, all its friends are mad and hunting us down around Cantha.

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