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Question about complexity - performance balance.


Edward Holm.4207

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Hello there! I am returning player and have been dabbling into semi-serious character building and learning the quirks of how to get most out of my class. I play two professions, engineer and elementalist. And tinkering with these I have watched several videos about the classes for fun.

My main question is; What does it mean when many players (and content creators) say some class is complex but rewarding? 

Playing with engineer and elementalist for a while, I fail to see what this means yet. What is the reward in playing something as complex as most of the effective elementalist builds? I can do effective dps with very easy rotation on mechanist (and even support allies with ease), but I struggle sweat to get even at the same level of performance with elementalist. 

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There are low investment builds/rotations for all professions, even for elementalist. And, contrary to belief, there are complex builds/rotations for almost all profession as well, not only for elementalist or engineer.

The main reward you'll get from playing something complex is a feeling of "achievement". If all you want is to beat the content and get the virtual reward without dropping a sweat, don't bother playing something complex.

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When I see 100th post about LI builds doing some OK dmg and then bringing up elementalist with their OMG hard piano rotation and whining why LI are so easy. You know what I think? I start to believe the problem is not LI builds. Its elementalist. For the sake of God, make that class easier to play!!!

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Seems like I have to point out that I do not mind harder builds or professions but the reward has to be there in my opinion. I mean I'm rational person and the "feeling of achievement" doesn't really cut it if I put so much effort to it. For me that kind of game design feel like choosing to eat soup with spoon or toothpicks.

It doesn't have to be like I wish them to do more damage or such but the work put into playing harder rotation should have an actual reward for me or my group. Such as maybe I would be able to provide more boons than low intensity builds, maybe I would be able to have better heals and support with the same dps etc.. something that would actually reward the effort in concrete way. 

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27 minutes ago, Gendalfs.7521 said:

When I see 100th post about LI builds doing some OK dmg and then bringing up elementalist with their OMG hard piano rotation and whining why LI are so easy. You know what I think? I start to believe the problem is not LI builds. Its elementalist. For the sake of God, make that class easier to play!!!

❤️ . If there is one thing i can't stand out when i play dps , it's to be under a mechanist pew pew dps ... can't allow a dps rotation with the same apm as a dead oyster to be above . Indeed about ele there is not a single dps rotation benching high enough with today bench , who is LI . All high bench are made with piano Beethoven apm for +- same results as way easier build to use (hello reaper^^).

If you look at the data (for endgame content) there is quite a problem with ele and especially with thief , they are literally not played.

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37 minutes ago, Gendalfs.7521 said:

When I see 100th post about LI builds doing some OK dmg and then bringing up elementalist with their OMG hard piano rotation and whining why LI are so easy. You know what I think? I start to believe the problem is not LI builds. Its elementalist. For the sake of God, make that class easier to play!!!

Maybe its a lillbit of a personal bias, but i honestly think that elementalist isn't really hard to play at all (except for catalyst). I guess Tempest is also relatively hard when compared HAM or hq Herald. 

I can get 93% bench on my Weaver, but getting even 85% on builds such as condi holo, power wb, (old untamed), axe Mirage, berserker etc can sometimes feel like an impossible goal, let alone actually performing it in an actual bossfight. 

Problem with ele is that it has a relatively high base level requirement to play the class compared to other classes and therefore it gets alot of hate. I guess it also doesn't help that the elementalist is the only traditional spellcaster and therefore attracts alot of casual players. 

A class feels rewarding in my opinion if it takes practise to properly pull off, excells at the specific thing that you want to achieve and doesn't have to many annoying mechanics to deal with (like fervent force inconsistencys on untamed, shadow flare on DE, orbs on cata, berserk uptime issues etc etc.) There's a fine line between a mechanic being challenging or flat out annoying AF and unfortunately there's a good amount of builds that fit the latter.

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3 hours ago, Edward Holm.4207 said:

My main question is; What does it mean when many players (and content creators) say some class is complex but rewarding?

Complex describes both the rotation options and the synergies between skills, stats, runes, sigils and the environment/enemy itself. As people have mentioned above, there are LI builds which can do extremely well by pressing 1-5 buttons only. A complex build CAN involve more buttons, but they also require a lot more planning ahead and combination effort.

But Rewarding means you see a significant difference between your performance and others in your group with less complex builds. Since we have LI builds, the real ones, Elementalist is in a questionable state. It has the most complex rotations, but the LI build get really close to its performance. On the other hand, Elementalist is very squishy. Even if you gear it like a tank, it drops like a fly. But that is not what the meta advises, they say: go full GC. The LI builds also recommend going GC, but their baseline sustain is in most cases a lot higher than that of the Elementalist. Making mistakes is not punished with almost instant death.

Elementalist is rewarding if you can get your performance beyond that of LI builds, noticeably. Else you end up questioning yourselves "Why do I even bother with it?".

The most annoying part is not even surpassing LI builds. The rotations are pre-written for the meta, you do not need to figure them out on your own. It is just repetitive muscle-memory training at the golem until you reach benchmark. The problem is the transfer from golem to actual combat.

The average player can get acceptably close to benchmark when fighting an immobile target that does not attack, has all conditions while the player having all boons. But as soon as any combat-mechanics are involved, the performance drops drastically. Even if you run the best build in the game, you can end up with really low DPS.

There are a few ways to solve this:
1.) You become a god-like player = a professional. If you have the money, the time and the talent you can get skilled enough to keep the benchmark performance while soloing a T4 CM fractal. The amount of training required for this is astronomical. But if GW2 is all that matters for you in your life, you can go for it.

2.) LI builds, which grant great performance with little effort. That means you can actually focus on the mechanics while still performing within an acceptable level.

3.) Customized builds. They focus on various elements and not strictly on DPS only. Some of them utilize rare synergies or combine effects that only experienced players know about. If you are interested in this, I highly recommend you Lord Hizen. His builds are performing surprisingly well, while still offering survivability and mobility in combat.
-
I'm with the customized builds. The meta is cool but boring imo. You press buttons in a scripted order and you are considered a good player when you can do it without mistakes. The human mind is not a machine. But that is my opinion. We have a strong community on the board who see repeating a script as the greatest achievement of mankind. I build my own stuff and optimize it to my playstyle. DPS is of secondary value for me, most important element is having fun while playing the character. Intuitive combat with a focus on sustain and survivability. To each their own. Some people enjoy playing for a highscore ^^. 

Edited by HnRkLnXqZ.1870
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42 minutes ago, HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:

Complex describes both ...

An actual answer! Thank you. So it is how I kind of guessed it would be. Somewhat sad but no matter, I'll adjust. I think I will go with customized and LI builds. They seem more realistic allrounders for my style of gameplay.

Ill check whats there for elementalist, but regarding all this I think I'm will be sticking with engineer as my main it just seems better option out of these. Very versatile and high damage for solo with great support options for group. Elementalist has nice group healing options but the squishines and complexity to attain the same level of fun with similar damage performance doesn't feel to be there as much. 

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7 hours ago, Edward Holm.4207 said:

My main question is; What does it mean when many players (and content creators) say some class is complex but rewarding? 

Playing with engineer and elementalist for a while, I fail to see what this means yet. What is the reward in playing something as complex as most of the effective elementalist builds? I can do effective dps with very easy rotation on mechanist (and even support allies with ease), but I struggle sweat to get even at the same level of performance with elementalist. 

Maybe they talk about intrinsic rewards, rather than extrinsic rewards that the game throws at you (like items, achievements, etc.).

Some people enjoy playing more complex professions more than simple ones. The opposite is true for other people.

For example, some friends of mine enjoy the long rotation of Summoner in FF14, while I prefer playing Dancer and clicking on the abilities that light up.

In the same vein, some people enjoy the complexity of playing an Elementalist flipping through all attunements more than they enjoy playing a five-Signet Mechanist that just uses its one weapon and and its robot's abilities.

Edited by Fueki.4753
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The value is in the work. EI the work is its own reward.

 

I would like to say that investing time in learning to do hard rotations and play challenging builds was rewarding in a lasting way. However, any play benefit seen is arguably undone by nerfs and changes that will make the old things learned break and force one to learn new things and invest more time only to have to repeat the process. It can seem interesting and ok for a while, but personally, after a few times of investing significant time and effort into developing a non-standard play style only to have it destroyed for performing well can leave a bad taste. Personally, it made me feel like a fool for wasting my time when I can get 90% of the same performance for 10% the effort from other builds.

 

Therefore, I suggest avoiding any challenging builds. Play what ever will give you the best performance and enjoyment for the least time investment and just play the game. Its literally a mistake to invest time to develop build specific skills in this game. The games balance is geared for low intensity and balanced to it at this point.

Seriously, dont get sucked down this rabbit hole of skilled play in gw2. Its a huge pitfall many fall into and by the time you realize it you have invested 100s or 1000s of hours into a thing that will evaporate in one balance patch.

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8 hours ago, Edward Holm.4207 said:

Hello there! I am returning player and have been dabbling into semi-serious character building and learning the quirks of how to get most out of my class. I play two professions, engineer and elementalist. And tinkering with these I have watched several videos about the classes for fun.

My main question is; What does it mean when many players (and content creators) say some class is complex but rewarding? 

Playing with engineer and elementalist for a while, I fail to see what this means yet. What is the reward in playing something as complex as most of the effective elementalist builds? I can do effective dps with very easy rotation on mechanist (and even support allies with ease), but I struggle sweat to get even at the same level of performance with elementalist. 

Should be careful with some of these definitions being put out there by all kinds of people... Complexity "according to gamers and arenanet" is not how one should really think about or describe what something that is complex is.

In gamer terms, and generally speaking, when someone says something is "complex" you often think of a ball of rubber bands all knotted together...or a very intricate and ornate pattern on a fabric...or something that seems ugly or gross. In comparison to something that is "simple" which might be just a single rubber band...or a mundane single color fabric, something that is beutiful because of it's simplicity.

When viewed from these perspectives, its easy to put their characteristics in a little box and think that the things are binary. But it would surprise you if I told you that these two properties; the simple and complex are actually the same thing.

It's completely counter-intuitive...how can something simple, and something complex be the same thing? The fact that there is such a disconnect and non-intuition for that idea, has pretty much been the reason why there has always been confusion on how to actually describe the things that exist, or make stuff that are truly useful. There is in fact a field of science you can study called Complex Systems, which was made for this exact reason, due to the inability of modern engineering and science in being able to model actual systems that we see in the world. 

So just to reiterate the problem again, with the current intuition on "complexity" is the following :

1) The more buttons we add that need to be pressed, the more complex the class is, the more rewarding to play the class when you resolve that complexity.

2) Create a class that can do everything it needs to by using just a few buttons. 

And the arguing comes in when it comes to "balancing" those two completely opposing views. You want the classes to perform the same (do the same DPS) with different levels of effort, but also receive the same reward for the work they did...which are by definition in total conflict with one another.

This problem, stems from a very very fundamental and wrong understanding about this subject. Because as mentioned just a moment ago, it turns out that those two opposing properties, the simple and the complex, are actually the same thing. And even though that sounds so counter intuitive, you experience this bi-association every day. You use a computer. Computers are the best example of how a simple series of 0's or 1's turn into something as complicated as guild wars 2. You also see it all the time in the natural world...simple single cell organisms go onto create us complicated human beings. It is no different for a video game, that has simple skills, can go on to create builds that exhibit complex behavior. There is a union to be had there...but the problem is...A-net doesn't get that, and neither do most people in general...they totally fumble this idea for what complexity is, and that's why folks experience the problems that they do.

When you can create a mechanic as simple as the game of life, which goes on to be Turing universal (the highest possible ceiling for complexity) then taking a look at the differences between that and skills you would typically see in guild wars 2, then the problem becomes trivial...that it is the design of the rules (the mechanics) that make the key difference between having a game where simple mechanics go on to create infinitely complex and novel behavior, and when it does not. Guild Wars 2 skills currently, are too trivial...and create boring, repetitive (class 1) behavior...and that's why the only thing Anet can do is just "add more trivial skills on a class and that class is now more complex" which is like the messy, cookie cutter way to get something complex.

So in conclusion, to answer the question : "What does it mean when many players (and content creators) say some class is complex but rewarding? " the answer depends on who exactly are "the players and content creators" and what they think complexity actually is (which in most cases is wrong). A truly rewarding, both simple and complex game, is something like game of life... Guild Wars 2 has practically none of those features...and generally speaking, neither it's simple or complex classes or skills ever feel rewarding, to play or to press.

If one believes that pressing 100 buttons that all do marginal, boring things like "Do 100 damage at 500 range, do 500 damage at 100 range, do 250 damage at 250 range" and think that this is real complexity? It's hard to hear this, but you are getting duped. 

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1 hour ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Should be careful with some of these definitions being put out there by all kinds of people... Complexity "according to gamers and arenanet" is not how one should really think about or describe what something that is complex is.

In gamer terms, and generally speaking, when someone says something is "complex" you often think of a ball of rubber bands all knotted together...or a very intricate and ornate pattern on a fabric...or something that seems ugly or gross. In comparison to something that is "simple" which might be just a single rubber band...or a mundane single color fabric, something that is beutiful because of it's simplicity.

When viewed from these perspectives, its easy to put their characteristics in a little box and think that the things are binary. But it would surprise you if I told you that these two properties; the simple and complex are actually the same thing.

It's completely counter-intuitive...how can something simple, and something complex be the same thing? The fact that there is such a disconnect and non-intuition for that idea, has pretty much been the reason why there has always been confusion on how to actually describe the things that exist, or make stuff that are truly useful. There is in fact a field of science you can study called Complex Systems, which was made for this exact reason, due to the inability of modern engineering and science in being able to model actual systems that we see in the world. 

So just to reiterate the problem again, with the current intuition on "complexity" is the following :

1) The more buttons we add that need to be pressed, the more complex the class is, the more rewarding to play the class when you resolve that complexity.

2) Create a class that can do everything it needs to by using just a few buttons. 

And the arguing comes in when it comes to "balancing" those two completely opposing views. You want the classes to perform the same (do the same DPS) with different levels of effort, but also receive the same reward for the work they did...which are by definition in total conflict with one another.

This problem, stems from a very very fundamental and wrong understanding about this subject. Because as mentioned just a moment ago, it turns out that those two opposing properties, the simple and the complex, are actually the same thing. And even though that sounds so counter intuitive, you experience this bi-association every day. You use a computer. Computers are the best example of how a simple series of 0's or 1's turn into something as complicated as guild wars 2. You also see it all the time in the natural world...simple single cell organisms go onto create us complicated human beings. It is no different for a video game, that has simple skills, can go on to create builds that exhibit complex behavior. There is a union to be had there...but the problem is...A-net doesn't get that, and neither do most people in general...they totally fumble this idea for what complexity is, and that's why folks experience the problems that they do.

When you can create a mechanic as simple as the game of life, which goes on to be Turing universal (the highest possible ceiling for complexity) then taking a look at the differences between that and skills you would typically see in guild wars 2, then the problem becomes trivial...that it is the design of the rules (the mechanics) that make the key difference between having a game where simple mechanics go on to create infinitely complex and novel behavior, and when it does not. Guild Wars 2 skills currently, are too trivial...and create boring, repetitive (class 1) behavior...and that's why the only thing Anet can do is just "add more trivial skills on a class and that class is now more complex" which is like the messy, cookie cutter way to get something complex.

So in conclusion, to answer the question : "What does it mean when many players (and content creators) say some class is complex but rewarding? " the answer depends on who exactly are "the players and content creators" and what they think complexity actually is (which in most cases is wrong). A truly rewarding, both simple and complex game, is something like game of life... Guild Wars 2 has practically none of those features...and generally speaking, neither it's simple or complex classes or skills ever feel rewarding, to play or to press.

If one believes that pressing 100 buttons that all do marginal, boring things like "Do 100 damage at 500 range, do 500 damage at 100 range, do 250 damage at 250 range" and think that this is real complexity? It's hard to hear this, but you are getting duped. 

I actually dont agree with your concept of complexity when you say "[...]more buttons we add that need to be pressed, the more complex the class is[...]," nor do I agree that "[...]a class that can do everything it needs to by using just a few buttons[...]" equates to what constitutes a simple build's rotation. That seems to honestly totally miss how complicated vs simple works in gw2. I get it and I agree that is the perception of the typical player. However, typical players are often wrong about this kind of topic.

 

What IS an example of complicated game play vs simple game play?

First let me define what I think constitutes simple gameplay. Most if not all classes have builds in which the ordering of the keys used makes minimal difference in the dps/heal/boon performance as long as they get hit off cooldown. ordering them perfectly can make a slight improvement in performance but its general not significant (say within 70-80% of benchtest). I would call those simple builds. That said, many of them require a TON of key pressing. Scrapper, scourge, herald, druid, etc all require a ton of key pressing, heck you pretty much spam the keys all day on them. That said, they are all pretty dirt simple to play compared to more complex specs. For instance, sword holo or condi holo requires watching and timing skills or you go from top dps to suck dps from a minor error or two. That said, I wouldnt even consider sword holo to be that complex, but it requres allot more practice, understanding and skill to get good numbers from it than a scrapper. (same class dif spec)

What do I say makes a build or play style complex? Its when you have to learn to do extra things other than just pressing the skills. Things like stowing weapons to stop animations or special timing of a group of skills to get good dps like timing holo forge or continum split (chrono), or needing to use up all your dodges and fill ini then hit signet before you spam 2 on DD is also sorta complex tho its just 1 key you mostly us and Mirage Cloak has special timing and if you just spam they keys you dont trigger it some times and waste it and mess up your dps and the rest. Granted Mirage, and DD can both be pretty simple BUT they can also be rather complex depending the objective. Meanwhile, other specs like mech as you point out can avoid most of the penalties or common errors. So I guess Im trying to say that simple builds may or may not have allot of keys but a simple build is forgiving in its performance when you mess up. A complicated build requires more ordering, timing and often has a much larger loss in performance when you mess up. (IMO before CMC that used to be the justification for some specs outperforming others in certain situations and was a reward for investing your time and effort into the more complex/less common play styles. CMC seems to have been undoing this all sadly.)

I could go on, but tbh I dont play much anymore. I have limited interest. However, this topic does touch on an aspect I feel is a serious issue that mostly gets miss-understood.

 

(also I want Mirage to have a consistent number of dodges across game modes cause its really poor design and ruins continuity of play when moving between modes to stay entertained. Its needless inconsistency in the place of actual balance that also adds to complexity in the form of discontinuity.)

Edited by Moradorin.6217
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19 hours ago, the krytan assassin.9235 said:

Problem with ele is that it has a relatively high base level requirement to play the class compared to other classes and therefore it gets alot of hate. I guess it also doesn't help that the elementalist is the only traditional spellcaster and therefore attracts alot of casual players. 

I'd say it's an issue of ele being the only class that's still somewhat balanced around having tradeoffs and weaknesses as they're inextricably baked into the attunement system at it's core. Core ele's niche was always the versatile, self-sufficient, jack-of-all-trades and its higher theoretical power/utility was balanced out by having a high skill floor and it's ability set being compartmentalized.

Over the years though class design has shifted from classes/specs having specific niches to every spec being more or less self-sufficient and boon support being much easier all around. Ele hasn't gotten any less powerful, but it has lost its niche as now basically everything has the same versatility and group support that core ele did but without the drawback of having to manage 4 attunement cooldowns, 20 weapon skills, and being made out of paper. You just end up in a situation where Ele is working literally 2-4 times as hard as everything else to get the same effect. 

Ele always gets treated like this broken problem child by the community, but honestly its only real problem is being one of the only remaining well designed/balanced classes in a game full of homogenized, dumbed-down power creep.

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7 hours ago, Edward Holm.4207 said:

From one academic to (maybe?) another. I just wanna point out you really don't have to do this with your life. 😛 

Haha. Ya, true. It’s a serendipitous process really. So even if folks don’t take it seriously here which is fine, it’s taken seriously elsewhere which has greatly improved so much about my own life in general and the application of the knowledge is a powerful tool I use everyday, so I don’t regret it at all.

 

cheers man, I hope it was helpful.

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22 hours ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

I actually dont agree with your concept of complexity when you say "[...]more buttons we add that need to be pressed, the more complex the class is[...]," nor do I agree that "[...]a class that can do everything it needs to by using just a few buttons[...]" equates to what constitutes a simple build's rotation. That seems to honestly totally miss how complicated vs simple works in gw2. I get it and I agree that is the perception of the typical player. However, typical players are often wrong about this kind of topic.

 

What IS an example of complicated game play vs simple game play?

First let me define what I think constitutes simple gameplay. Most if not all classes have builds in which the ordering of the keys used makes minimal difference in the dps/heal/boon performance as long as they get hit off cooldown. ordering them perfectly can make a slight improvement in performance but its general not significant (say within 70-80% of benchtest). I would call those simple builds. That said, many of them require a TON of key pressing. Scrapper, scourge, herald, druid, etc all require a ton of key pressing, heck you pretty much spam the keys all day on them. That said, they are all pretty dirt simple to play compared to more complex specs. For instance, sword holo or condi holo requires watching and timing skills or you go from top dps to suck dps from a minor error or two. That said, I wouldnt even consider sword holo to be that complex, but it requres allot more practice, understanding and skill to get good numbers from it than a scrapper. (same class dif spec)

What do I say makes a build or play style complex? Its when you have to learn to do extra things other than just pressing the skills. Things like stowing weapons to stop animations or special timing of a group of skills to get good dps like timing holo forge or continum split (chrono), or needing to use up all your dodges and fill ini then hit signet before you spam 2 on DD is also sorta complex tho its just 1 key you mostly us and Mirage Cloak has special timing and if you just spam they keys you dont trigger it some times and waste it and mess up your dps and the rest. Granted Mirage, and DD can both be pretty simple BUT they can also be rather complex depending the objective. Meanwhile, other specs like mech as you point out can avoid most of the penalties or common errors. So I guess Im trying to say that simple builds may or may not have allot of keys but a simple build is forgiving in its performance when you mess up. A complicated build requires more ordering, timing and often has a much larger loss in performance when you mess up. (IMO before CMC that used to be the justification for some specs outperforming others in certain situations and was a reward for investing your time and effort into the more complex/less common play styles. CMC seems to have been undoing this all sadly.)

I could go on, but tbh I dont play much anymore. I have limited interest. However, this topic does touch on an aspect I feel is a serious issue that mostly gets miss-understood.

 

(also I want Mirage to have a consistent number of dodges across game modes cause its really poor design and ruins continuity of play when moving between modes to stay entertained. Its needless inconsistency in the place of actual balance that also adds to complexity in the form of discontinuity.)

Hello,

In essence the problem here is that the nomenclature folks use are not formal, which is why there is confusion about what "simple" and what "complex" means here, but we are talking about the same thing and I believe we agree and are on the same page, but I’ll try to clear things up:

Simplicity and complexity are pervasive properties. They appear at all scales of a system (in our case, the system is gw2 as a game)...skills can be simple, builds can be complex...builds can be simple, gameplay can be complex...all the way up and all the way down, these are properties that seep into all of these levels and so talking about a single layer is often also a source of confusion.

What I'm talking about specifically, is how skills are designed, and how this trickles up to the rest of the game. Ultimately these are the "atoms" of the game with which the game operates on, and typically this is what you would target first when talking about a complex system. There are other atoms you could start from (like basic player behavior, or the ruleset of the game which drives the player behavior which leads to what skills players actually chose to play) but in terms of what one can actually design, and have control over, is the skills. We can't for example, directly program player behavior or builds that players choose... the only way one can do so is by affecting the ruleset of the game, or the skills with which players pick to make builds.

About what you said, is that the formal definition encompasses those things that you mentioned; the fact that there are different time-directed executions of skills, nuances like weapon stowing, jump dodging like you would see in SPVP, and there's a laundry list of interactions that can happen as the result of the degrees of freedom available to the game state.

In other words, we are generally talking about the same things here. Those nuances are complexity one typically wants to see when designing a game...that if you have some skill there should be n^x possible ways one can use that skill that grows with the degrees of freedom in the game state. The fact that i could use skill A like this, then in some other encounter and use the same skill but like that, is a feature of this growth in complexity without adding more skills (more atoms of the game) to do the same thing.

My whole thing is that, the game we have right now, is a modicum, a tiny little crumb on an infinitely large plate of the potential complexity the game could actually have if it was designed better, because in essence, being able to use a skill n¹⁰⁰⁰ different ways, is a much more elegant game, than a game where you have 1000¹ different skills that can only be used in 1 way. These "ways" of using skills is not limited to those nuances you mentioned, they encompass the entire state-space of possible skill combinations, time directed executions,  and so on at all scales. I mentioned this in the previous comment, but a computer is a very obvious example of this complexity...very simple assemblies of 0's and 1's gives us all of the complexity of the internet, the games we play on it, the words that we type.

Now if you view the above as a bad thing, then that's where we would disagree. I think much evidence is to the contrary...that this kind of complexity is a good thing and we see that viscerally all around us, every day. Guild Wars 2 is not designed like this...it's designed in a way that is not conducive to having that kind of complexity...as you said they go on and take elements like this away from the game. 

 

Cheers,

 

 

Edited by JusticeRetroHunter.7684
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8 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Haha. Ya, true. It’s a serendipitous process really. So even if folks don’t take it seriously here which is fine, it’s taken seriously elsewhere which has greatly improved so much about my own life in general and the application of the knowledge is a powerful tool I use everyday, so I don’t regret it at all.

 

cheers man, I hope it was helpful.

I agree, knowledge is a powerfull tool. But you still need the skill to know when and how to use it properly.

If someone asks for a shovel and you write pretty poem about shoveling in the moors of yorkshire, it doesn't really do much but make you reinforce/fullfill some psychological need which you see as improvement or proof of identity.

But as you mentioned, you probably wrote it more to yourself than to people here. 😉 

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2 hours ago, Edward Holm.4207 said:

I agree, knowledge is a powerfull tool. But you still need the skill to know when and how to use it properly.

If someone asks for a shovel and you write pretty poem about shoveling in the moors of yorkshire, it doesn't really do much but make you reinforce/fullfill some psychological need which you see as improvement or proof of identity.

But as you mentioned, you probably wrote it more to yourself than to people here. 😉 


your saying that this knowledge isn’t applicable to the game… that’s the common cop out answer that keeps most gamers in the dark preventing literately any headway on any kind of theory of games. “Games aren’t real so scientific thinking can’t be applied to them.”

This has nothing to do with personal anything. pursuit of knowledge is about truth and getting to the bottom of things, because you want to know how something actually works so you can actually do things. Your making this baseless assumption that this information isn’t applicable or can’t be applied when I have in these comments applied them, explaining how certain phenomena in the game actually work…as if I haven’t already applied this stuff for 17 years and in this game in theorycraft.

The purpose is to obviously help other people understand and become more knowledgeable…imagine if you worked for an organization that created the cure to leukemia…would you not try to help others by telling them how the cure works to make it themselves? Of course you would because not doing so is morally bankrupt…Even if it wasn't the cure, or people don't believe it be the cure and think it all to be a conspiracy... the knowledge of how it works is still important because someone smarter or someone with more of a platform than you might take that information and do something useful with it (serendipity).

I liked you better before the condensation…but not like I should have expected any kind of charitable interpretation on the internet. You asked a question I gave you the answer…you don’t want the scientifically literate answer… then go and be my guest wandering the dark caves forever…you seem content with being there…fine then.

so instead of hearing this from me, maybe hear the same information but from a game designer:

 

Edited by JusticeRetroHunter.7684
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On 5/29/2023 at 12:53 AM, zeyeti.8347 said:

❤️ . If there is one thing i can't stand out when i play dps , it's to be under a mechanist pew pew dps ... can't allow a dps rotation with the same apm as a dead oyster to be above . Indeed about ele there is not a single dps rotation benching high enough with today bench , who is LI . All high bench are made with piano Beethoven apm for +- same results as way easier build to use (hello reaper^^).

If you look at the data (for endgame content) there is quite a problem with ele and especially with thief , they are literally not played.

Rifle pew pew mechanist does really low dps now, and condi mechanist has a complex rotation.  This isn’t EOD launch lol

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5 minutes ago, Stx.4857 said:

Rifle pew pew mechanist does really low dps now, and condi mechanist has a complex rotation.  This isn’t EOD launch lol

24-25k full afk still is too much , wouldn't call that low if you claculate the energy you put in vs the dps it does , any other full AA build who deal so much at 1200 range ? And condi mech ofc is a hard rotation if you use bomb kit and grenades , but i didn't call this one.

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On 5/29/2023 at 8:36 AM, Edward Holm.4207 said:

What is the reward in playing something as complex as most of the effective elementalist builds?

A power weaver that knows their rotation does an opener that peaks at 70k dps. Highest in the game afaik, with soulbeast second place at 65k.

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1 hour ago, shib.1369 said:

A power weaver that knows their rotation does an opener that peaks at 70k dps. Highest in the game afaik, with soulbeast second place at 65k.

True , but maybe 5-10%  of ele player base are able to do that. Ppl do not ask ele to be as easy as a reaper or a scourge (i did not mention mech pew pew because it would be harassement ... oh sh it i just did mention it ...)

But there are things that can be done to ease a bit this class without completely make it overperforming for the average joe player and completely nuts for all the piano player.

Like remove catalyst energy , tune a bit down the damage of all sphere to compensate the dps increase , Make EE stacks last longer or improve the tershold for 2x effect to 6 or 7 stacks before it become 100% more effective , .. i mean this class have to manage energy with the weird no energy for 5 sec after a  sphere launch , manage hammer skill 3 , manage combo fields/aura/finisher to have EE stacks , manage the swap attunement ... and we good , do i need to dance macarina also before starting the boss to have my feets trained too , because  i could use my feet as a 3rd hand to play it , would be appreciated , and don't forget the mouse and keyboard damage while playing it , could ele , untamed , axe mirage and all other high apm class  have -25% discount on mouse and keyboards ?

There is a reason Ele and thief are the least played class , and the reason is not dps , it's accessibilty and usefullness.

They made a freaking gj with mesmer , the virtuoso ! it's easy and efficient , has great survivability , some blocks and invulnerabiltys and no crap tones of weird mechanics , clone becomes sword/ammo and improve your F skills by their amount , simple ... just read Elemental Epitome , how do i combo ? what is that 10 sec cd on the tooltip for ? most new player see that ... they runs off and play another e-spec or class.

I know it's a rant , but have to admit that the game in term of % played is pretty well balanced now , at least each class has one e-spec represented (for pve) only ele and thief are way behind .

Edited by zeyeti.8347
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On 5/31/2023 at 6:11 PM, zeyeti.8347 said:

True , but maybe 5-10%  of ele player base are able to do that. Ppl do not ask ele to be as easy as a reaper or a scourge (i did not mention mech pew pew because it would be harassement ... oh sh it i just did mention it ...)

But there are things that can be done to ease a bit this class without completely make it overperforming for the average joe player and completely nuts for all the piano player.

Like remove catalyst energy , tune a bit down the damage of all sphere to compensate the dps increase , Make EE stacks last longer or improve the tershold for 2x effect to 6 or 7 stacks before it become 100% more effective , .. i mean this class have to manage energy with the weird no energy for 5 sec after a  sphere launch , manage hammer skill 3 , manage combo fields/aura/finisher to have EE stacks , manage the swap attunement ... and we good , do i need to dance macarina also before starting the boss to have my feets trained too , because  i could use my feet as a 3rd hand to play it , would be appreciated , and don't forget the mouse and keyboard damage while playing it , could ele , untamed , axe mirage and all other high apm class  have -25% discount on mouse and keyboards ?

There is a reason Ele and thief are the least played class , and the reason is not dps , it's accessibilty and usefullness.

They made a freaking gj with mesmer , the virtuoso ! it's easy and efficient , has great survivability , some blocks and invulnerabiltys and no crap tones of weird mechanics , clone becomes sword/ammo and improve your F skills by their amount , simple ... just read Elemental Epitome , how do i combo ? what is that 10 sec cd on the tooltip for ? most new player see that ... they runs off and play another e-spec or class.

I know it's a rant , but have to admit that the game in term of % played is pretty well balanced now , at least each class has one e-spec represented (for pve) only ele and thief are way behind .

I'm a bit confused since I was responding to this question from the op: "What is the reward in playing something as complex as most of the effective elementalist builds?"

I was simply giving an example of such a reward. I didn't write anything regarding what ought to be or what ought not to be.

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On 5/29/2023 at 7:36 AM, Edward Holm.4207 said:

My main question is; What does it mean when many players (and content creators) say some class is complex but rewarding? 

You would have to ask those people what they mean as it's subjective.

On 5/29/2023 at 7:36 AM, Edward Holm.4207 said:

Playing with engineer and elementalist for a while, I fail to see what this means yet. What is the reward in playing something as complex as most of the effective elementalist builds? I can do effective dps with very easy rotation on mechanist (and even support allies with ease), but I struggle sweat to get even at the same level of performance with elementalist. 

The reward is to feel good about doing something more complicated, it used to be you had higher (even if it was marginal) dps but that's kinda gone out the window at the moment.

I firmly believe that "low intensity" builds should exist but that they shouldn't be as effective as those that are more complicated. For DPS I feel they should be ~80% of what a more complex build would achieve, fine to complete content but you're not setting any records. It's your bread and butter weekly clear without dying or drama.
What do I consider complex?
I consider complex rotations as those that require specific conditions and considerations about skill usage. That can be where you need to activate skills from behind, where a skill might move you in a way that could be dangerous or lock you into an animation for a certain time. Other aspects would be when you have skills where the they're a finisher and you generate a field to boost their damage so should use them in the field to combo higher dps etc.
Weaver in particular can be quite complicated due to the lower cool down on attunement swap giving greater access to the 26 weapon skills they can have so you have to manage the order where if you're 0.5s off or you fat finger the wrong attunement you can end up dropping dps considerably. It's very punishing for mistakes.

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