June 27 Balance Update Preview

[Lucinellia.9247]

4 hours ago, troy.3257 said:

I been mulling over the quickness Deadeye today. You will have to trait  Fire For Effect to give quickness to allies but the radius on it is only 360 and the notes does not say it is being increased. Pretty useless for a rifle Deadeye that has 1500 range. If I got to equip melee weapons then I would rather bring something else. Hell even pistols are 900 range. Whats the use of having DE group quickness if you got to use daggers ? Its you know a........ RANGED class.😕

You'll need to use daggers anyway since Fire for Effect competes with Maleficent Seven and the latter is needed to make the damage loop of rifle possible. 

Regardless, being able to do ranged boons at 1500 range isn't a good idea and professions that can do ranged boons, such as Mechanist, are very dominant in a lot of situations because of the ranged boon generation. 

[Serephen.3420]

15 hours ago, Waffles.5632 said:

I feel this entire patch is the result of looking at numbers and spreadsheets only. I want to be respectful because I appreciate the devs working on the game, and giving their time and effort day in and day out, however I am very frustrated for a multitude of reasons.

The major reasons however are;

- Class identity is being killed across the board

- Blatant class favoritism (Everyone knows it's ele. This is not a secret)

- The devs seemingly unable or refusing to actually play the classes to see what actually makes them FEEL FUN TO PLAY

I get some of your points but you're still tripping, ele has been a red headed step child for years and the moment it's not getting beat on it's suddenly favouritism? Ele needed just as many reworks as mesmer and ither classes. Take the frustration with your class nerfs elsewhere. I'm not so hype about some of these changes either. I play a few other classes in addition to ele, like necro, but you're not helping anyone making claims like that.

[Myror.7521]

@Waffles.5632 don't blame me sir. But Was not spin for win meant to be Reaper identity? Im pretty sure the one of Berserker was "fast hard DPS" in this sence the new Arc Divider makes mutch more sence. As mutch as i like the nowdays Arc Divider (I like it cause its "easy to Play" in PvP cause even while ur blinded u will at least hit somehow with spin for win anyways. But its also mutch more spamy cause of it..... Idk new one will lead to at least more reactive and Skill full gameplay and this is why i loved GW2 Back then ..... reactive gameplay)

[TheGrimm.5624]

ANet, so based on WvW polls at this time, 155 players that are willing to comment on the forums indicate we don't have enough strips, conversions versus we have too many boons. The other side has 8. Directionally considering the forums are a subset, is that the way to go or are there external influences that should be questioned about boons versus anti-boons?

All WvW players, drop in your input so we can figure out is its just a group size view or something else so that proper feedback can be provided. Details are important in software design. Appreciate your time.

[zeyeti.8347]

1 hour ago, Serephen.3420 said:

Blatant class favoritism (Everyone knows it's ele. This is not a secret)

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/popularity , yeah ... ppl seems to agree with you , ele is so played by a lot of players , so easy and so OP... i wonder why mech is played 16% across strikes and raids so much ? it is so difficult to play and need a huge brain to pull of alacrity ... *cough* *cough* .

Where the hell is ele favorite class of anet ???? in pvp maybe , but in pve , it's at the same level as thief. 

[Strider.7849]

Please reconsider the changes you are about to implement to druid. Removing ancient seeds to give it a bit of damage, changing the feel, function, and playability, of the class is not something anyone asked for. The reduction skills were not rolled into it and this will only leave druid with a couple dazes and immobs making blood moon underwhelming. I've mained ranger and played druid since the day heart of thorns was released, this is by far the worst change you are making to it since then. It's better to have lower damage with higher control, which goes better with Druid than increasing its damage and leaving it virtually defenseless. We have soulbeast, core, and untamed which already fills the role you are trying to force onto a spec that wasn't designed for that style of play.

[Waffles.5632]

On 6/17/2023 at 2:14 AM, Serephen.3420 said:

I get some of your points but you're still tripping, ele has been a red headed step child for years and the moment it's not getting beat on it's suddenly favouritism? Ele needed just as many reworks as mesmer and ither classes. Take the frustration with your class nerfs elsewhere. I'm not so hype about some of these changes either. I play a few other classes in addition to ele, like necro, but you're not helping anyone making claims like that.

 

I'm not tripping, you are just confused. My frustration isn't with ele at all. My frustration is with CMC favoring X class while destroying Y & Z classes.

I LOVE that CMC is passionate about ele and clearly has some good ideas regarding the class. What I want is for that passion to be spread to other classes as well. Simple as that. Equal representation.

No one should cheering or accepting any kind of favoritism for any class. When Solar was buffing mirage (remember it was Solar who gave staff mirage ambush x8 might + 4sec alac without any clones) I was one of the most vocal mesmers AGAINST that buff, because it was braindead and wasn't healthy for the Mesmer class nor the game as a whole. Many mesmers have suggested since then to spread alac to all ambushes, so mirage isn't pigeonholed into one weapon type for alac. Those suggestions have literally been ignored for years now.

Also Mirror Blade on Mesmer greatsword has been broken for legit like ~5 yrs now. You cannot tell me it is fair that ele gets staff rework, scepter rework, and now another skill rework but the devs can't find time for a mirror blade fix and/or rework.

ALSO VINDI DODGE STILL COMPLETELY DOES NOT EVEN WORK UNDERWATER.

These are higher priority fixes IMO than churning earth rework + aura buffs.

 

On 6/17/2023 at 2:20 AM, Myror.7521 said:

@Waffles.5632 don't blame me sir. But Was not spin for win meant to be Reaper identity? Im pretty sure the one of Berserker was "fast hard DPS" in this sence the new Arc Divider makes mutch more sence. As mutch as i like the nowdays Arc Divider (I like it cause its "easy to Play" in PvP cause even while ur blinded u will at least hit somehow with spin for win anyways. But its also mutch more spamy cause of it..... Idk new one will lead to at least more reactive and Skill full gameplay and this is why i loved GW2 Back then ..... reactive gameplay)

 

Reaper borrows from warrior. Hence the shouts they get, and that they are melee. (core necro is ranged, even dagger has ranged skills) That is why they are also spin to win, because they are warriors of death. It's already a big debate over on warrior forums but like 9/10 warriors agree that multi hit > single hits for pvp, especially when it comes to burst skills because warriors absolutely need those to land to activate certain traits. Missing a burst is huge and with new arc divider you're going to be losing out on 2 chances to hit in favor of the same or less damage.

Furthermore Arc Divider is currently very special because in certain situations it can actually hit up to 15 targets. Each pulse can hit 5 targets, so if u have 5 targets die on the first pulse, then 5 new targets come in on the second pulse, you will hit them as well, etc.

The new arc divider is a nerf disguised as a buff.

Edited June 17, 2023 by Waffles.5632

[Waffles.5632]

On 6/17/2023 at 1:57 AM, Lucinellia.9247 said:

You'll need to use daggers anyway since Fire for Effect competes with Maleficent Seven and the latter is needed to make the damage loop of rifle possible. 

Regardless, being able to do ranged boons at 1500 range isn't a good idea and professions that can do ranged boons, such as Mechanist, are very dominant in a lot of situations because of the ranged boon generation. 

Mecha isn't dominant because of ranged boons. Mecha is dominant because the class plays itself and is extremely efficient, so much so that you can afk most times and still output the similar numbers as other classes in the same role.

On EoD launch AFK Mecha (yes literally no button presses) did like 30k dps or so, and while it got nerfed since then, AFK mecha is still respectable in most content. There should never be any class where you can literally walk away from your keyboard and still be efficient.

 

The signets in mecha are so overloaded just compare shift signet to blink.

Mesmer Blink = 1200 range, stun break, teleport

Shift signet = 25% movement speed, 1200 range, stun break, teleport, 2 condi cleanse.

It's like that with all mecha signets.

 

Look at Mirage trait speed of sand; a GRANDMASTER (highest tier) trait that does -increase movement speed by 66% while you have mirage cloak, that's it.

VERSUS

Willbender Righteous Sprint; A master (lowest tier) trait that does -25% movement speed PASSIVE PLUS Gain swiftness when you activate a virtue. I say to anyone with a brain, why does willbender need BOTH  a PASSIVE 25% movement speed bonus AND SWIFTNESS GAIN on the SAME TRAIT????

All of EoD specs are still overloaded and overbloated.

 

These aren't class problems they are design problems.

 

Edited June 17, 2023 by Waffles.5632

[Myror.7521]

@Waffles.5632 let me correct you. It was not meant to be a buff or a nerf. It was meant to be change cause of they want the Skill to be more "Berserker Theme". They allready mentioned on Stream that if its a nerf for the dps they might buff it up. Besides this i can not agree with the guys that its a nerf in PvP. In PvP its more like a  nerf but also buff. Yes the old Version is going though aegis and blind.  But its still 3 hits means there is a big Chance this hits will not all going to critical hit while the new one have a 50% + chance to get a crit hit Off it. Also its a Skill with a long Animation means you could easiliy get cced while using it. Letz say we could say in PvP its not even close a Nerf. Its only a "Nerf" while you brainless spam it out ^^.

[Waffles.5632]

On 6/17/2023 at 9:04 AM, Myror.7521 said:

@Waffles.5632 let me correct you. It was not meant to be a buff or a nerf. It was meant to be change cause of they want the Skill to be more "Berserker Theme". They allready mentioned on Stream that if its a nerf for the dps they might buff it up. Besides this i can not agree with the guys that its a nerf in PvP. In PvP its more like a  nerf but also buff. Yes the old Version is going though aegis and blind.  But its still 3 hits means there is a big Chance this hits will not all going to critical hit while the new one have a 50% + chance to get a crit hit Off it. Also its a Skill with a long Animation means you could easiliy get cced while using it. Letz say we could say in PvP its not even close a Nerf. Its only a "Nerf" while you brainless spam it out ^^.

 

Intentions don't always lead to desired effects. Trust me it's a nerf and in pvp it will be missing way more if patch goes live. Just take a simple 1v1 match up against Virtu and tell me how many times a single hit arc divider will land versus the current 3x hit one.

Yes current one means big chance SOME of your hits miss, but one lands. New one = big chance ALL of your hits miss (because there is only one) and NOTHING lands. It's a nerf.

Warriors also have plenty of other one hit bursts as well. To put it simply, GS doesn't need a one big hit burst. And you can be CC'd during the new one as well so that point is moot. We can agree to disagree tho!

[Myror.7521]

@Waffles.5632 Not gonna lie in a Match ub against Virtuoso you will not Hit any hit. Even with the old one. Also a real good warr would never Go in a 1v1 against a virtuoso only just to defend a point maybe ^^

Edited June 17, 2023 by Myror.7521

[Waffles.5632]

@Myror.7521 okay ngl I laughed because you are right, ain't no one landing anything on Virtu atm 🤣

Edited June 17, 2023 by Waffles.5632

[Serephen.3420]

2 hours ago, Waffles.5632 said:

 

I'm not tripping, you are just confused. My frustration isn't with ele at all. My frustration is with CMC favoring X class while destroying Y & Z classes.

I LOVE that CMC is passionate about ele and clearly has some good ideas regarding the class. What I want is for that passion to be spread to other classes as well. Simple as that. Equal representation.

No one should cheering or accepting any kind of favoritism for any class. When Solar was buffing mirage (remember it was Solar who gave staff mirage ambush x8 might + 4sec alac without any clones) I was one of the most vocal mesmers AGAINST that buff, because it was braindead and wasn't healthy for the Mesmer class nor the game as a whole. Many mesmers have suggested since then to spread alac to all ambushes, so mirage isn't pigeonholed into one weapon type for alac. Those suggestions have literally been ignored for years now.

Also Mirror Blade on Mesmer greatsword has been broken for legit like ~5 yrs now. You cannot tell me it is fair that ele gets staff rework, scepter rework, and now another skill rework but the devs can't find time for a mirror blade fix and/or rework.

ALSO VINDI DODGE STILL COMPLETELY DOES NOT EVEN WORK UNDERWATER.

These are higher priority fixes IMO than churning earth rework + aura buffs.

 

 

Reaper borrows from warrior. Hence the shouts they get, and that they are melee. (core necro is ranged, even dagger has ranged skills) That is why they are also spin to win, because they are warriors of death. It's already a big debate over on warrior forums but like 9/10 warriors agree that multi hit > single hits for pvp, especially when it comes to burst skills because warriors absolutely need those to land to activate certain traits. Missing a burst is huge and with new arc divider you're going to be losing out on 2 chances to hit in favor of the same or less damage.

Furthermore Arc Divider is currently very special because in certain situations it can actually hit up to 15 targets. Each pulse can hit 5 targets, so if u have 5 targets die on the first pulse, then 5 new targets come in on the second pulse, you will hit them as well, etc.

The new arc divider is a nerf disguised as a buff.

Ok fair enough, I would like all classes to get love. Though some don't need as much as others do at this point. I'm not pro scourge change just so it's clear, but at the same time am grateful to see some somewhat positive changes for ele again. Maybe it's ptsd😅

Let's just hope they can cone to a compromise of sorts, like tempest was in a way. Preserve the old play style while also having a place for the new one. 

 

As for churning earth I wasn't expecting that, not sure if I'd call it a buff yet, faster but less damage etc, will miss the old one 😕. I was hoping for a rework of hammer 3s, resolving the energy issue for catalyst which limits its options a lot. The various bugs on weaver, and the need to constantly spam overloads on tempest. Still waiting for their supposed dps tempest, they did it for druid but tempest gets one trait change?

I still have mixed feelings on how quick herald will now work, and more than heal scourge, the boon corruption changes and boon removal changes make no sense to me. 

I think that whoever is handling necro perhaps needs to show more passion then. Unless cmc is the only guy working on balance which I feel would be a bit of a rough thing to do. 

I feel there used to be a balance lead for each class in the early days, but never hear about thst anymore.

Edited June 17, 2023 by Serephen.3420

[Bookah pls.9352]

4 hours ago, Waffles.5632 said:

 

 

The signets in mecha are so overloaded just compare shift signet to blink.

Mesmer Blink = 1200 range, stun break, teleport

Shift signet = 25% movement speed, 1200 range, stun break, teleport, 2 condi cleanse.

It's like that with all mecha signets.

 

 

Have you considered that mechanist loses access to toolbelt skills, and that's why their signets are stronger? 

[Gendalfs.7521]

4 hours ago, Waffles.5632 said:

Shift signet = 25% movement speed, 1200 range, stun break, teleport, 2 condi cleanse.

It's like that with all mecha signets.

Imagine Elite thats so good that you dont want to put any Core utility.

Its good design or bad?

[mirage.8046]

22 minutes ago, Gendalfs.7521 said:

Imagine Elite thats so good that you dont want to put any Core utility.

Its good design or bad?

I mean, it is *good* if you want to promote said brand-new skills being used. That is especially true for classes whose core utilities are underwhelming, not good enough to be used in XYZ game mode, or unviable. 

Now let me ask this: if elite spec skills are designed to be that useful, does that justify calling for nerfs or does that mean there should be equally competitive choices for your skill slots? Hmmmm.

[Flapjackson.1596]

Engi core skills are pretty great with kits being amazing. Elite spec utility goes wrong with things like Harbinger vials where you had to take multiple to upkeep your blight but the skills felt like the same skill over and over. Uninspired design.

For core utility that is weak and needs attention, look no further than Core Ele and War utility. Laughably bad compared to things like Guard, Mesmer, and Engi.

[mirage.8046]

I won't deny engineer core skills are bad; many of them are versatile. The problem with elite spec skills is usually the compromise to access them. Yeah, for many builds (heal, alac, quick, general support, dps), you feel obligated to bring almost all of the new skills to do your role, or perhaps all of them.

For mechanist, they lost 41 toolbelt skills just for signets. Of course those signets have to be designed to be attractive choices; otherwise Mechanist as a whole would be wanting a toolbelt. What did scourge and harbinger lose for their core shroud? Many powerful skills to offset the lack of a protective shroud. What did reaper lose? For pvp and wvw, a shroud whose life force drains quickly. 

[Waffles.5632]

On 6/17/2023 at 12:35 PM, Bookah pls.9352 said:

Have you considered that mechanist loses access to toolbelt skills, and that's why their signets are stronger? 

I have considered it yes, but you're not being entirely honest here. Mecha loses toolbelt skills for jade mech + signets, and jade mech alone more than makes up for lack of toolbelt skills sorry. It's essentially another party member with how strong it is, and I'm not saying that as a bad thing. I think it's a fair trade off to lose tool belt skills in favor of a near unstoppable AI pet that can solo any veteran mob and below, and even solo some open world champ mobs by itself, or with very very little help from the mechanist itself.

 

Mecha straight up allows engi to coast through soloing nearly all open world champs, including HoT hero point champs with their Jade Mech both taking the brunt of aggro and damage, while still dishing out plenty of dps on it's own AND mecha is AFAIK the easiest alac class in the game by miles atm. I could be wrong on this last bit but I don't think so. Off the top of my head I can't think of another class that dumps out Alac with such ease.

Again though, there are other design avenues IMO besides overloading signets to the point that players feel forced into taking them because they offer so much.

[troy.3257]

13 hours ago, Lucinellia.9247 said:

You'll need to use daggers anyway since Fire for Effect competes with Maleficent Seven and the latter is needed to make the damage loop of rifle possible. 

Regardless, being able to do ranged boons at 1500 range isn't a good idea and professions that can do ranged boons, such as Mechanist, are very dominant in a lot of situations because of the ranged boon generation. 

Thats what I said and I would rather take another class to a group situation than DE because well ......its stupid

[Lucinellia.9247]

4 minutes ago, troy.3257 said:

Thats what I said and I would rather take another class to a group situation than DE because well ......its stupid

Damage should be good, and it isn't as cumbersome as old FfE Might Share, but the lack of utility will really place this at the level of Catalyst for how often you see it in endgame PvE.

[troy.3257]

15 hours ago, SoftPup.3048 said:

No boon support is applying boons from 1500 range. Unless you're kiting Qadim you shouldn't be that far away from your group most of the time in the first place.

I know thats my point why give a 1500 range class a group boon ? Its senseless. The whole point of DE is to use rifle at long range.

[Batalix.2873]

I was so excited for this patch making alacScourge a thing during the initial announcement.

But it seems every day I just hate every detail about this patch more and more. Nearly every change is bad. I don't want to resent it or the devs but man is it bad.

ANet, hire me. Let me fix things for you. I want to help. Many of these issues have very clear solutions and you are missing practically all of them. These changes feel like they only fix very specific, petty gripes about PvP matchups at the substantial cost of good holistic design principles and concepts.

Edited June 17, 2023 by Batalix.2873

[Waffles.5632]

On 6/17/2023 at 3:48 PM, troy.3257 said:

I know thats my point why give a 1500 range class a group boon ? Its senseless. The whole point of DE is to use rifle at long range.

Most end game fights don't utilize 1500 range effectively enough for DE to make an impact at that range, and actually in quite a few fights, even the beginner strikes like Fraenir, being at range is a hindrance to the entire team/raid because the boss starts jumping around.

Personally I'd love to see a DE boon support that could fully use the 1500 range, but GW2 end game isn't built for it currently IMO. It's a tough balance because you have melee classes to think of as well.

[Batalix.2873]

1 hour ago, Waffles.5632 said:

Most end game fights don't utilize 1500 range effectively enough for DE to make an impact at that range, and actually in quite a few fights, even the beginner strikes like Fraenir, being at range is a hindrance to the entire team/raid because the boss starts jumping around.

Personally I'd love to see a DE boon support that could fully use the 1500 range, but GW2 end game isn't built for it currently IMO. It's a tough balance because you have melee classes to think of as well.

Imo professions should have the option to balance quickness/alacrity in ways that make sense to them, and shouldn't be held to this espec-specific limitation.

Chronomancer is already bucking this trend with the option to trait into alacrity or quickness, on top of an alac well with Well of Action. It makes flavorful sense for the time mage espec, and frees up design space in Mirage and Virtuoso for other things. The only way it could be even more perfect would be if Well of Action also provided a smidge of Quickness. That way (1) Chrono could equally fill out phantasm gaps on both Alacrity and Quickness builds, (2) Well of Action would have condensed support slot utility into a single well that makes flavorful sense, and (3) Chrono's Well of Action providing a little bit of both Alac/Quickness would be a useful gap-filler for subgroup alac/quickness without being overpowered, kind of like the rez Scourge of boons.

So if Chronomancer is already breaking the rule, I think other professions deserve rethinking this particular paradigm shift. I already believe that Warrior's proposals are terrible for maintaining uptime and make little flavorful sense--banners would actually work better in this new paradigm if they put Alacrity on Banner of Defense and a parallel alac trait in Discipline. That way banners have a niche, and Warriors can modularly swap in alacrity/quickness--and won't be obligated to be bannerslaves now that more than two classes can provide either boon. The last piece of the puzzle would be to bring back a mini-game support to banners and make them less "well-like", so I would propose bringing back kits and allowing the Warrior to throw banners like spears.

The other profession on which alac/quickness really don't make sense to me is Thief. Thief is roguish, selfish, deceptive. Deadeye especially is a very selfish and malicious espec. And frankly alac Specter never made much sense to me either (or Specter as a whole, but that goes beyond this topic). On top of that the particular implementation just seems especially arbitrary, where all three thief specs have access to shadow magic and steals, yet only one espec can use them for boon support. Contrast with say Necro where only Scourge has sand barriers and only Harbinger has elixirs. Removing these proposals and putting alac/quickness on universal core Thief traits makes more sense for Thief I think. I would probably put them into Trickery since that is already a fairly niche traitline.

All the other especs mostly make sense to me, and I think it would be fairly balanced to have one of each weight class offer a different modular approach to alac/quickness where appropriate. Warrior, Thief, and Mesmer just make the most sense as the most selfish, DPS-forward identities.

But point being, I agree that Deadeye providing Quickness just...really stretches the job fantasy of a malicious, long-range assassin. Really poorly thought out concept overall. The devs are trying to whittle away all of the contours of specs so they will all fit neatly into round holes and I think that is precisely the opposite of what they should be doing.

Edited June 17, 2023 by Batalix.2873