June 27 Balance Update Preview

[ItsAlive.1236]

Hey is this stupid kitten still happening?

[GamerToad.9248]

I wonder when Riot's mmo is releasing 

[soul.9651]

5 hours ago, GamerToad.9248 said:

I wonder when Riot's mmo is releasing 

Didnt lead dev already left or something in riots mmo? xd

[Hauwlyn.8051]

On 6/23/2023 at 12:23 AM, NoggDog.5486 said:

At this point, Druid has been aged out of the meta and needs a serious overhaul, not these aimless changes. It lost mainstream appeal starting in EoD, and the nail in the coffin last year when they took away spirit buffs and banners. Now, there are only precious few niches that aren't covered by others that are nearly a guarantee in every modern squad, static or pug.

The real reason "druid has been aged out of the meta" is because most people who wanted to be lazy without being questioned for it(despite playing badly) before EOD were playing druid, and most of those went on to play heal mechanist as the even lazier build. That's it. That's not about how viable druid is, that's about how easy HAM is to play at a basic level, plain and simple.

On 6/23/2023 at 12:23 AM, NoggDog.5486 said:

4) Vigor. One of the best skills from F2, the 3, provides vigor. It's not on pet swap like Druid's, but it's there, on a skill you should use as a healer anyways as your main source of regeneration.

This is crap and you know it, if you use that to upkeep vigor and regen, you regenerate pages way too slow to deal with even the expected mechanics, much less the emergency situations. Pages aren't CA, you can't just burn them all and get them all back in a moment. This is only a real possibility either in the most reliable of statics or on fights where you almost never need pages for anything else.

 

On 6/23/2023 at 12:23 AM, NoggDog.5486 said:

Meanwhile, Firebrand still has veritable loads of unique tools to bring to the table, even after its changes in February. Sure, Druids have Entangle to hold Gorseval's spirits,

Druid also has plenty of unique tools, and it has stuff baseline that firebrand needs to spec for. Those statements are true for both classes, some stuff needs to be specced for, some is baseline, what that stuff is depends on the class.

On 6/23/2023 at 12:23 AM, NoggDog.5486 said:

Sure, Druids have Entangle to hold Gorseval's spirits, but other classes are making that strategy invalid by swapping a utility or simply existing, like power Mechanist or scrapper with net turret.

First off, if we're relying on our offensive support or dps players, then all those points for or against druid getting more aegis and stab are moot. This is what I've been arguing the whole time, remember? Get a guardian to complement your druid and you don't need a HFB anymore. Same thought process.
Second, no, Power mechanist isn't replacing Entangle. Neither rifle 3 nor net turret come even close to competing in that scenario. Yes, on low dps squads I tell someone in each sub with some immob to watch the adds that don't get focused first. Just because the problem can be solved by someone else, and in this case 2 players, doesn't mean it's not a drawback of your healer class.

 

On 6/23/2023 at 12:23 AM, NoggDog.5486 said:

You bring up movement, but for roles Druid used to be prized for with its staff 3, other classes can now do better. A druid cannot beat a Mechanist kiting Sabetha's flak and greens when Mech can use Shift Signet to completely ignore the flame wall and get to where they need to go to throw the special action key,

Purely discussing the fact that druid shouldn't get more firebrand stuff because it has plenty of stuff firebrand can't do or does clearly worse, I completely agree with mechanist being way too useful and its drawbacks being way too minor and typically inconsequential. So yes, baseline movement on staff is much better than having to sacrifice a utility slot AND needing either an enemy or allied target to move to. Or slotting sword for it I suppose.

 

On 6/23/2023 at 12:23 AM, NoggDog.5486 said:

Druid's largest advantage over Firebrand has always been its insane burst healing, but now they're tying alacrity to it so it's now going to have the chance to be on cooldown when it's needed. That makes druid's largest advantage unreliable, as Mukluk has been describing it, "Sorry, I can't do insane support or glyph revives right now, I just gave everyone alacrity and CA is on cooldown." This begs the question, why would you take a healing Druid after this patch when almost every single shoe it used to fit can now be filled by a Mechanist with more reliability and less sacrifice?

I completely agree that for Alac on CA to work out, it must overcap greatly, so  you still time CA when you need it, unless you won't strictly "need" it for a long time in which case you sneak one in, which right now you do for might anyway so same difference.

On 6/23/2023 at 12:23 AM, NoggDog.5486 said:

Back to Firebrand, however, Firebrand can apply everything except Alacrity that Druid can and more, both readily and reliably.

Simply not true, as per the many examples i've provided already.

 

On 6/23/2023 at 12:23 AM, NoggDog.5486 said:

Firebrand has good burst healing,

It does, but only if you precast Oasis and Bow, that is to say if you anticipate stuff. Same as druid's aegis, and in fact, same as Firebrand's aegis if you rely on the baseline one and not on Advance. Unless you're burning mantra of solace in which case you can say goodbye to your prot uptime.

 

On 6/23/2023 at 12:23 AM, NoggDog.5486 said:

access to almost every boon, with the exception of alacrity, which are all either permanent or reliably accessed,

False, as I've explained many times over. It technically has access to stuff but can't actually afford all of it. Just the basic boons: might quick prot and fury requires us to sacrifice plenty of our theoretical flexibility. Add 100% regen on top of that and we have almost none left. Still not covering Vigor, Resistance, and actually full Resolution. Sure, the access is there, the permanence or reliability is simply not. It was reliable but not permanent when we had tome cooldowns, it's not anymore.

 

On 6/23/2023 at 12:23 AM, NoggDog.5486 said:

, far more freedom to swap weapons between sword, axe, mace, and scepter which all can fill all sorts of situational roles,

Druids can choose pets. Pets are at about the same level of relevance in a druid build that the mainhand weapon next to shield on firebrand is. It has uses, occasionally great ones, most often it's just some nice extra.

 

On 6/23/2023 at 12:23 AM, NoggDog.5486 said:

and tons of cleanse with its insane access to combo field light and the f2 tome and utilities.

With the page cost, combos and F2 are actually not enough condi cleanse access for constant condi pressure fights, and that's not counting the fact you could instead use the combo on a fire field 2 times out of 3 for might, in those, we need the utility. But yes, on something like Sloth's shake, F2 is great. Note that I didn't include condi cleanse in the list of things druid does clearly better than firebrand, because I think they're on about an equal standing there, firebrand certainly isn't above druid on that front. The real master of condi cleanse is heal scrapper anyway.

 

On 6/23/2023 at 12:23 AM, NoggDog.5486 said:

Their movement is only really an issue in WvW, where they can simply take Merciful Intervention to stick with or escape to their group if they fall behind or are caught out.

Oh, I'm not discussing WvW viability here, it's completely obvious to me that Firebrand is extra busted and irreplaceable there. Since they split balancing between gamemodes, and now that they decided they could even change what boon a trait applies between gamemodes, I don't think we should mix WvW and PvE discussions together anymore. Otherwise we'd just say "buff firebrand" because of how overnerfed it was in sPvP, and that would be silly.

 

On 6/23/2023 at 12:23 AM, NoggDog.5486 said:

as for the most part you're standing still, and when fast movement is required it is provided

As an example, you technically can flak&green kite on sabetha on firebrand. It's still much less tedious and much more reliable to do your whole job(notably boons) while kiting as a druid and even more so as a mechanist.

 

On 6/23/2023 at 12:23 AM, NoggDog.5486 said:

 

It's unfortunate, but Druid versus Firebrand isn't even close to a competition currently, and it will be even less of one after this update forces people to burn Astral form as often as possible for alacrity, not to mention they still haven't revealed how the spirits rework is actually going to function so we still don't know if they're keeping permanent protection uptime. As I said, I used to heal mainly as a druid and loved it, but it's now simply nowhere near as good as Firebrand or Mechanist, and without a serious redesign, even after this update, it never will be.

The only condition to druid being unquestionably a meta healer after this patch is alac being easily overcapped. HFB post nerf is gonna have to play  "burn everything off cd" and lose out what actual flexibility it does have currently.
A lot of the balancing problem currently anyway is that boons from other roles vary way too wildly. Got a power alac mecha in your sub? Yup, Firebrand is in a great spot there. Got a PAlacren and a bunch of deadeyes? Sucks to be a HFB currently in that situation, absolute crap post patch. If they actually made ALL alac dps and quick dps roles reliably loop 10+ might, then the healers would be much easier to balance. As it is, all those assumptions about might flying around are actually only true about fury.

14 hours ago, NoggDog.5486 said:

Problem with healers taking on as much work as possible for Druid specifically, Druid used to be more free to be off group. Now, doing the things Druid used to do with ease away from the group can't be done nearly as well because you need to be on group for alacrity application, especially with this patch's changes, if the tooltip from the Twitch preview was anything to go by, they're going to have one second of alacrity per tick without concentration. That's abysmal, and will be forcing people to burn CA off cooldown and stay on group spamming abilities burn all their druid juice. At least the spirit alacrity could be done at a decent range in comparison.

Firebrand is not really free to be off group at all for Quick uptime. It used to be worst when it comes to placement before the mantra bugfix, but our constant quickness application means forays out of the group are only good for a short time if you have FMW, or if you're letting quick drop because there's no main target to hit and more dps right now isn't useful because of invuln phases and such.
Really, the only condition for all this working out is just CA overcapping alac, this way you either easily overcap while staying in the group when you need to, and therefore you time your CA when you need it, or you can stay at constant range but you give just enough alac by only using 123 on the squad.

14 hours ago, NoggDog.5486 said:

I'll also remind you that I opened and closed my post saying that I used to heal mainly with druid, and I'm speaking from my experience playing Firebrand after that. Yes, it's one sided, because again, it's not even a competition at this point, Firebrands have far better coverage and usage in group play.

I certainly empathize with that, the only thing that prevents me from playing mechanist 95% of the time instead of firebrand is that it gets boring. the 5% that remains are the actual situations where firebrand is clearly gonna do a better job, out of 3 meta healers if we count druid, that's not a lot of situations. It's mecha's existence that's keeping druid down to that playrate, and in a lot of situations just because it's easier to play AND has many similar strengths, ones that firebrand just doesn't have. Still, I have been playing mechanist at times and if the patch hits as it is I'm definitely gonna pick the mechanist much more often than the firebrand, despite how much more experience I have on firebrand and how much more I enjoy the guardian in general over the mechanist.

I've pretty much already addressed the rest of your post so I'm just gonna stop repeating myself

Still that says nothing about why druid should supposedly have more aegis and stability, which is how this whole discussion started. I think I made a good point to show that Druid shines in many ways a Firebrand cannot, and vice versa. Restrictive usability has always been part of both the firebrand and druid, and since the tome rework I'm arguing that they're on equal footing there, just for different tools. You want a more reliable Aegis on your druid, one that doesn't require you to anticipate to that extent? Then balance it out with making basic boons application on firebrand much less tedious, but if we go down that rabbit hole, every spec will end up playing the same indeed. It's fine that firebrand does some things with more difficulty and literally can't do a few. The same goes for druid. The only one that shines way above druid in usability is mechanist.

[Yogurt Goblin.5934]

18 hours ago, Hauwlyn.8051 said:

I said it had a niche, not that the build itself was a niche, you're just putting those 2 words together to muddy the waters and if you think druid immob doesn't qualify, you clearly need to play other classes more. Druid is already in a great spot as it is and it's about to get above the pack if alac has any margin and allows you to time your CA as you need it.

How does a class have a niche, without it having a niche build though? You specifically need to create your build with a niche goal in mind to achieve this. I play Rev, Ele and Engineer quite a bit too, so I'm very aware that each class has its own time and place, but HFB has the most time and most places requests

 

18 hours ago, Hauwlyn.8051 said:

Clearly this whole thread is a tribute to the great job they're doing balancing this game. Most out of place argument of authority i've ever seen.

You are right, I agree, they aren't balacing the game ideally, and this is most apparent at the dominance of HFB. They literally keep making Firebrand weaker and weaker, it barely gets any buffs.......and it is still the most requested build on LFG, because it is still go much better than anything else.

 

18 hours ago, Hauwlyn.8051 said:

HFB may be requested specifically because they want a quick heal since they already have alac dps and they think it's the only good one, and they wouldn't be wrong. Herald doesn't have the baseline aegis at all, and sacrifices too much for any stab at all, and the rest of the quick heals are dysfunctional. Not saying it's never requested specifically for what it can exclusively do, but you're generalizing here. Pretty sure you're cherry picking about the HAMs being requested specifically, so if you want to cherry pick that much, I still see people request druid to do gorseval, samarog and SH push.
Kinda tells us the PUG Meta isn't always right or rational, and that's especially obvious when they seem to mimic speedrun strats without questionning anything.
Have you considered that maybe if your druid can't seem to do the impressive things a lot of people tell you they can do and you think HFBs are so great is because you're not getting the most out of your class?

So you agree, HFB is the best option for this and its not close? and most of the time, its not about filling the gap with a quick heal and they put it down as HFB, they request it from the start.

HAM isn't anywhere close to HFB in terms of being requested, but its still requested for just general use as it is asuper strong build.

Obviously I'm not gonna ignore the fact that people request Druid for those whole whooping 3 encounters, lots of classes have specific requests: Tower Chrono, Hand Kites, Rev Ventari bubble for Harvest Temple and Pylons. Classes should have a time and a place to really shine, just not like HFB does everywhere.

I'm not saying my Druid can't do impressive things, druid can do a lot of amazing healing, long distance revives and provides good boon coverage......what my druid can't do though is provide the same level of aegis and stability as HFB, which was my original point. So maybe don't try to claim people don't have the required skill to play a class, in an insulting way, just because your arguement is wrong and you can't think of anything better to say?

18 hours ago, Hauwlyn.8051 said:

Your complaint about the aegis being centered on a pet despite the 600 radius kinda betrays your ignorance. Also, those HAMs that get requested have plenty of things happening around their own pet, same as yours, except some of their stuff is 360 radius instead, which makes quite the difference. Turns out managing your pet position on a pet class is important.

Does the aegis on druid come from the pet? Yes, so either you don't know what ignorance means, or you are hoping that by just saying something it will make it true. And do you honestly think that Mechs and ranger pets are the same in terms of easy of use and reliability? Mechs spam out their boons, barrier and damage. You press a button and it happens, yes the pathing of it isn't great, but it is still incredibly strong. Where as if you press the white tiger skill, you are hoping the planets are aligned and several gods are listening to your prayers if you want they skill to activate in a timely manner.....with its huge cool down rate.

[Hauwlyn.8051]

4 minutes ago, Yogurt Goblin.5934 said:

How does a class have a niche, without it having a niche build though?

a tower chrono is a niche build. A healer having a specific strength that others don't have but that doesn't define most of your role is a general build having a niche feature. The amount of bad faith in this whole paragraph thing is mind-boggling. If HFB was a niche build because of its broader access to stab and aegis, you'd always play advance and/or SYG. Plenty of fights where you play neither.

 

10 minutes ago, Yogurt Goblin.5934 said:

You are right, I agree, they aren't balacing the game ideally, and this is most apparent at the dominance of HFB. They literally keep making Firebrand weaker and weaker, it barely gets any buffs.......and it is still the most requested build on LFG, because it is still go much better than anything else.

10 minutes ago, Yogurt Goblin.5934 said:

So you agree, HFB is the best option for this and its not close? and most of the time, its not about filling the gap with a quick heal and they put it down as HFB, they request it from the start.

HAM isn't anywhere close to HFB in terms of being requested, but its still requested for just general use as it is asuper strong build.

Obviously I'm not gonna ignore the fact that people request Druid for those whole whooping 3 encounters, lots of classes have specific requests: Tower Chrono, Hand Kites, Rev Ventari bubble for Harvest Temple and Pylons. Classes should have a time and a place to really shine, just not like HFB does everywhere.

I'm not saying my Druid can't do impressive things, druid can do a lot of amazing healing, long distance revives and provides good boon coverage......what my druid can't do though is provide the same level of aegis and stability as HFB, which was my original point. So maybe don't try to claim people don't have the required skill to play a class, in an insulting way, just because your arguement is wrong and you can't think of anything better to say?

Have you considered ANY other factor such as, just to mention one, power alac mechanist being extremely popular and therefore needed a quick healer to complete your comp? No, you'd rather blindly trust PUG popularity as a metric for how good a spec is and ignore the many other points I've made about why firebrands see so much use.

Projecting pretty hard on that "not anything better to say" huh? Do you even read this thread? There's more than just the 2 of us here you know. Let me repeat myself clearly here to go past your selective reading skills: If you give firebrand's stab and aegis access to druid, you might as well give firebrand the good druid features. If you want to help them along homogenizing the game, sure, that could be a valid point. I'm clearly standing against that, your stab and aegis access might be a pain on druid, but it's sufficient for when it's absolutely needed.

As for me being insulting, don't dish it out if you can't take it, you'll remark i'm staying pretty civil when I'm met with people who aren't here to shove their opinions down over people's throat without the slightest attempt at discussing it.

18 minutes ago, Yogurt Goblin.5934 said:

Does the aegis on druid come from the pet? Yes, so either you don't know what ignorance means, or you are hoping that by just saying something it will make it true. And do you honestly think that Mechs and ranger pets are the same in terms of easy of use and reliability? Mechs spam out their boons, barrier and damage. You press a button and it happens, yes the pathing of it isn't great, but it is still incredibly strong. Where as if you press the white tiger skill, you are hoping the planets are aligned and several gods are listening to your prayers if you want they skill to activate in a timely manner.....with its huge cool down rate.

Yes, I've mentionned it can't be use for snap reactions. That's fine, because none of the places where it's truly needed are such snap reactions. You either know the pattern like gorseval slam, where you don't need to know it that well since it lasts 10s so you can cast it in advance very safely, or you have a long time to actually react like on Deimos' mind crush, in which case if your pet wasn't next to you when you needed it, that's on you, and if you have to queue it you still have plenty of margin to account for reaction time. No, you can't reliably use the white tiger to prevent a sabetha red bomb from exploding on the group, guess you're gonna have to use your great burst heals for that instead. Turns out that's great, because without notable precasts HFB can't burst heal that fast, but you can just Advance instead indeed, though that does take a utility slot.
As for Mechanist jade mechs, the pathfinding is just as bad, F3 has 360 radius around the mech, and barrier signet has 300 radius around the mech, both skills you might want either to anticipate for smart barrier use or to use off cd for uptime. So yes, the two things that good mechanist players have to do better than druid is pet management and damage anticipation. Druid can burst heals so hard that it doesn't need to anticipate the vast majority of stuff, so I get that it might be a foreign concept to a lot of players. Mechanist is still the easiest healer class.

[Yogurt Goblin.5934]

@Hauwlyn.8051 You are having 2 different discussions with 2 different people about the same topic and are arguing against the concerns we have for the game.

Unfortunately I don't want to use any more of my time/energy on this, so I hope you have a good day.

[Hauwlyn.8051]

1 minute ago, Yogurt Goblin.5934 said:

You are having 2 different discussions with 2 different people about the same topic and are arguing against the concerns we have for the game.

Muddying the waters again, both by associating yourself with someone who made much more effort to be objective and pushed valid points, and by generalizing that as "concerns for the game" when you can see full well I have similar concerns and the concern we actually disagree on is a very specific topic.

Fare thee well, I hope to never have to deal with that much misdirected hate from you ever again.

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

"

• Binding Shadow: Reduced cooldown from 30 seconds to 20 seconds in PvE and from 30 seconds to 25 seconds in PvP and WvW. This skill now immobilizes marked targets instead of knocking them down. "
  
  you know we already have a venom for this? why duplicate the skill?

[Juan.6124]

15 hours ago, nucklepuckk.1805 said:

Literally every class in the game maintains about 10 might. The idea that one person has to maintain 25 solo is an idea trapped in 2015. Get with the times.

Show me where 10 might comes from in a subgroup with a quickness scrapper, a reaper, a spellbreaker and a virtuoso.

[Elleandria.2846]

34 minutes ago, DirtyDan.4759 said:

Show me where 10 might comes from in a subgroup with a quickness scrapper, a reaper, a spellbreaker and a virtuoso.

Quick Scrapper:
•Blast Gyro generates 11 might @25s 
•Auto attack chain generates 1 might #10.5s on first hit, 3 might @10.5s on third hit.

Reaper:
• "You Are All Weaklings!" generates 5might @10s, 1 might per hit @10s and 1 Might per Melee hit @10s.
• "Chilled to the Bone!" generates 2 might @10s (CC Option)
• Auto attack gain generates 1 Might @15s for each of the three hits

Spellbreaker:
• Reckless Impact trait grants 1 Might per Hit @5s at the end of dodge rolls.
• Magebane Tether trait grants 1 Might @8s on activation
•Dagger Auto attack chain generates 1 Might @5s and 1 Crit Might @5s on first hit

Virtuoso: 
• Phantasmal Force trait Generates 3 Might @10s (Condi)
•`Phantasmal Swordsman generates 8 Might @10s
•  Greatsword secondary auto generates 2 might @5s (Power)
• Mirror Blade grants 3 Might @6s (Power)

Realistically if you are having a problem with Might in the current meta its because you have players not properly spec'd lol don't really need a solo-might pumper unless the rest of your group is running super off-meta builds, wherein you're just asking for issues anyway. Even with off meta raids/strikes (Even on CM) remain a joke, as long as you're not purposely throwing though.

[Zex Anthon.8673]

2 hours ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

"

• Binding Shadow: Reduced cooldown from 30 seconds to 20 seconds in PvE and from 30 seconds to 25 seconds in PvP and WvW. This skill now immobilizes marked targets instead of knocking them down. "
  
  you know we already have a venom for this? why duplicate the skill?

You realize this skill is also still 1200 range removes boons and applies poison and vulnerability?  It was bloated with the knockdown on top of that.

Personally I would have kept the knockdown and removed the poison, and boonrip. Then remove the immob on marked targets.

[Hauwlyn.8051]

36 minutes ago, Elleandria.2846 said:

Quick Scrapper:
•Blast Gyro generates 11 might @25s 
•Auto attack chain generates 1 might #10.5s on first hit, 3 might @10.5s on third hit.

3 of it loops from the combo, the rest isn't even close. The auto is self might, not group might

 

37 minutes ago, Elleandria.2846 said:

Reaper:
• "You Are All Weaklings!" generates 5might @10s, 1 might per hit @10s and 1 Might per Melee hit @10s.
• "Chilled to the Bone!" generates 2 might @10s (CC Option)
• Auto attack gain generates 1 Might @15s for each of the three hits

Its self might, not group might, and none of it remotely loops.

43 minutes ago, Elleandria.2846 said:

Spellbreaker:
• Reckless Impact trait grants 1 Might per Hit @5s at the end of dodge rolls.
• Magebane Tether trait grants 1 Might @8s on activation
•Dagger Auto attack chain generates 1 Might @5s and 1 Crit Might @5s on first hit

Self might, not group might, but yes magebane is on the higher end of self might on pure dps builds.

47 minutes ago, Elleandria.2846 said:

Virtuoso: 
• Phantasmal Force trait Generates 3 Might @10s (Condi)
•`Phantasmal Swordsman generates 8 Might @10s
•  Greatsword secondary auto generates 2 might @5s (Power)
• Mirror Blade grants 3 Might @6s (Power)

Self might, only phantasmal force loops.

so no, the whole sub isn't getting 10 stacks out of nowhere, 10 self might is already the higher end of dps builds, some do 0. So if the quick/alac dps is providing 3 as per the skills you mention, then the healer has to do 22.

56 minutes ago, Elleandria.2846 said:

Realistically if you are having a problem with Might in the current meta its because you have players not properly spec'd lol don't really need a solo-might pumper unless the rest of your group is running super off-meta builds, wherein you're just asking for issues anyway. Even with off meta raids/strikes (Even on CM) remain a joke, as long as you're not purposely throwing though.

Have you considered that some builds might not be meta precisely because when people pug with them they realize they're way off their bench partly because they rely on their groups giving more might than the average pug gives? Might is sometimes trivial, but it's very specific builds(like alac mechanists) being played and being popular, it's not the majority of the meta builds doing that, as many PUG logs prove to this day, since plenty of them are just as bad as they were in lazy druid days back when we ran firebrigade.

Plenty of people being dismissive or not even realizing the problem with the massive variance because it's not like this game is demanding with its dps checks. Basically, remove mechanists, see how many more logs have atrocious might.

[Batalix.2873]

Yes, remove Mechanists. 😁

[Spiral.3724]

Warrior main here -- please stop. You're destroying the entire identity of Spellbreaker. It's even in the name. We're supposed to break spells. Stop giving everyone more boons and not providing a counter to that.
Balance isn't about every class doing every thing -- it's about classes balancing each other.
If guardians give all the boons, spellbreakers should be able to strip them.
If necros give all the condis, vindis should be able to strip them.
That is balance.

[Elleandria.2846]

1 hour ago, Hauwlyn.8051 said:

3 of it loops from the combo, the rest isn't even close. The auto is self might, not group might

 

Its self might, not group might, and none of it remotely loops.

Self might, not group might, but yes magebane is on the higher end of self might on pure dps builds.

Self might, only phantasmal force loops.

so no, the whole sub isn't getting 10 stacks out of nowhere, 10 self might is already the higher end of dps builds, some do 0. So if the quick/alac dps is providing 3 as per the skills you mention, then the healer has to do 22.

Have you considered that some builds might not be meta precisely because when people pug with them they realize they're way off their bench partly because they rely on their groups giving more might than the average pug gives? Might is sometimes trivial, but it's very specific builds(like alac mechanists) being played and being popular, it's not the majority of the meta builds doing that, as many PUG logs prove to this day, since plenty of them are just as bad as they were in lazy druid days back when we ran firebrigade.

Plenty of people being dismissive or not even realizing the problem with the massive variance because it's not like this game is demanding with its dps checks. Basically, remove mechanists, see how many more logs have atrocious might.

My post was merely stating what each class had for sustain might (Group Gen+ Self Gen), i've never had a might issue unless people were using way off-meta and if they are not benching on meta properly then that's a them issue, not a balance issue. The balance of the game should never be so dumbed down that any class can be played in peak content or the class system would cease to have any uniqueness to it whatsoever.

This seems like purely a bad pug problem or comms not being able to manage group comps properly because this is the first time i've ever heard of boon might ever being a problem tbh. Self upkeep might is the vast amount of might upkeep in meta groups because the 2 supps in each subgroup bring usually 14-18 group might upkeep naturally, looking at a recent Cairn CM log our HAM alone kept 17.186 with over 6 wasted which is almost solo might upkeep on the group, each sub having ~96% uptime on 25 might which came out to just over 24.3 might average. Recent quickscrapper log from SH CM my sub had ~22 might uptime and i managed 11.6 group gen alone, the alacDruid-push producing 9.6 as well.

Not a single log am I seeing any semblance of might issues even with pug groups, maybe you're just getting really bad groups or people just don't understand their class kits well. Again, it's really not that hard to play even mid-meta classes so if that is the problem for people than might is the least of their worries lol

Edit: Removing classes merely because you're too bad to play them doesn't help the game, it hurts it 🙂

Edited June 24, 2023 by Elleandria.2846

[Batalix.2873]

@Cal Cohen.2358

I also want to point out another thing:

GW2 has a very distinct, late oughts era combat system. It is keyboard-based. It is very Zelda-esque in its targeting and dodge mechanics. It is very Mario/Banjo-esque in its exploration and platforming. It is very Donkey Kong/Spyro with its mounts. The art style hides lower-rez models/textures with a painterly style like Okami. The especs from HoT/PoF clearly communicate a lot of classic fantasy job archetypes from the likes of WoW and Final Fantasy, with appropriately unique and engaging twists. So much of its minor details and major themes are love letters to 90s and 00s era games and media. And the boons and condis were definitely a product of that sensibility, but also generally the idea of allowing each espec to experiment and specialize. GW2's appeal is solidly with the aging gamer demographic who enjoy games not for their hyperrealistic graphics or combat spectacle, but for a lot of the core features and charm of older titles.

This EoD era of development, where everything is flattened and the devs are clearly trying to parse away all of the interesting features of the old system in order to implement some kind of new, simple "action combat" paradigm, is overwhelmingly the wrong approach.

When the devs for GW1 started seeing fundamental features that they wanted to implement accumulate: things like new playable races, professions/especs, platforming. They didn't tear down GW1 to do that. They stopped making expansions for it and diverted those resources into making an iteration on the GW model that was given the proper tools and foundations to evolve those concepts. They didn't make Utopia, they made GW2.

Prior to EoD, GW2 was fine. The only thing it lacked for was consistent new content and support for existing game modes, but as far as how the old content and systems worked, it was in very good shape. Not perfect, some things needed massaging, but the overall thing functioned as a multi-class RPG. And now I see all these balance patches trying to tear down that edifice to try to turn the combat into a braindead action game ala Destiny.

Wake up call: GW2 will NEVER be Destiny, or Overwatch. The graphics are too dated. The combat is expressly keyboard based and will never translate well to gamepads. And even a lot of minor details of the combat are just not designed with the elegance of a two-button action masher like God of War, FFXVI, Bloodborne, Vindictus. The amount of effort needed to make GW2 THAT is so astronomical that the resources would be better spent developing GW3 from the ground up. You know, like you did last time.

If you want a flashy, modern action/PvP game: MAKE GW3. Diversify your market niches, don't consolidate them.

All these radical changes are doing is eroding the quality of an already strong game. They are ensuring that GW2 will have no real niche, nostalgia, or invested playerbase by the time GW3 does come out because you will have diluted and blown up anything that made it distinctly itself and a fun experience. The Civ games have always had an issue of splitting their playerbases with new installments, but they at least tend to retain about half on the old game because it was its own zeitgeist. You are not going to have that because you can't just let GW2 exist and thrive and dominate in the era of design it was made for.

And, again, most of these changes are cheap, evasive answers to deeper development problems anyway. PvP is not as imbalanced as to justify all of these radical all-modes guttings, and is not going to get any better nor more player investment without actual support, new maps/modes, and actual policing of gamesmanship. WvW and the emergent problem of blobs is not going to improve with changes to boons and stripping--it needs universally accessible, blueprint-based or map-based counters to break up blobs. And if the only real problems you are facing in PvE are Boneskinner being broken by Scourge and Dragon's End being unpopular, just fix those encounters: tweak Boneskinner mechs, and remove the escorts from Dragon's End so that players' time investment on a multi-stage, challenging boss meta is more fair.

So far, after a year, all we have gotten are these cost efficient "balance patches" that all seem to be minimal  attempts to fix literally the many underserved elements of the game, few of which actually involve "balance". And, I would venture that balance is fairly low on players' hopes for the game, between the constant cries for actual development: PvP maps/modes, WvW maps/features, new raids, revitalization of dungeons, etc. etc.

I'm sorry if you guys have been strapped for resources, but if that be the case, why are a few balance devs being burdened with the responsibility of damage controlling literally every neglected feature of this game? You guys are trying to fix a sinking Titanic with tinker toys. That shouldn't be your job, ANet/NCSoft seem to be horribly mismanaging/misallocating resources if this is what it has come to.

Edited June 25, 2023 by Batalix.2873

[Hauwlyn.8051]

18 minutes ago, Elleandria.2846 said:

My post was merely stating what each class had for sustain might (Group Gen+ Self Gen), i've never had a might issue unless people were using way off-meta and if they are not benching on meta properly then that's a them issue, not a balance issue. The balance of the game should never be so dumbed down that any class can be played in peak content or the class system would cease to have any uniqueness to it whatsoever.

The goal post moved so much so quickly it probably did mimic double blink.

21 minutes ago, Elleandria.2846 said:

This seems like purely a bad pug problem or comms not being able to manage group comps properly because this is the first time i've ever heard of boon might ever being a problem tbh. Self upkeep might is the vast amount of might upkeep in meta groups because the 2 supps in each subgroup bring usually 14-18 group might upkeep naturally, looking at a recent Cairn CM log our HAM alone kept 17.186 with over 6 wasted which is almost solo might upkeep on the group, each sub having ~96% uptime on 25 might which came out to just over 24.3 might average. Recent quickscrapper log from SH CM my sub had ~22 might uptime and i managed 11.6 group gen alone, the alacDruid-push producing 9.6 as well.

-Mentions bad pug problems
-uses a HAM that doesn't do 25 might and a druid only doing 10 as a counter-example
-readily admits best example doesn't even have 23 might, much less 25
-completely ignores the part about a specific spec being busted, not the overall meta

24 minutes ago, Elleandria.2846 said:

Edit: Removing classes merely because you're too bad to play them doesn't help the game, it hurts it 🙂

Like anyone with any sense, I litterally keep saying mecha is too easy to play, so clearly you either have the most abysmal reading comprehension or you're acting kitten throwing random insults off topic because I easily disproved your confident claim and hurt your ego. My money's on the latter.

[Elleandria.2846]

5 minutes ago, Hauwlyn.8051 said:

The goal post moved so much so quickly it probably did mimic double blink.

-Mentions bad pug problems
-uses a HAM that doesn't do 25 might and a druid only doing 10 as a counter-example
-readily admits best example doesn't even have 23 might, much less 25
-completely ignores the part about a specific spec being busted, not the overall meta

Like anyone with any sense, I litterally keep saying mecha is too easy to play, so clearly you either have the most abysmal reading comprehension or you're acting kitten throwing random insults off topic because I easily disproved your confident claim and hurt your ego. My money's on the latter.

Lol expect you didn't "Disprove" anything you just said you're too bad to play meta so you want meta removed so you can play trashcan auto classes like casuals do in open world which is why they had to nerf DE meta lol I gave you two examples of what meta might uptime look like on two bosses where its the hardest to upkeep Cairn CM because of SAK+Agony and SH CM because of wall movements, both having 24 and 22 respectively which are more than enough for pugs to play their classes properly and even in meta situations seeing as i have top parses with those might uptimes 🙂 

Simply saying "I dislike this, remove it" is not listing a problem nor is it giving a solution to the problem only showing your immature attempts at malding over your made up issue lol might uptime in this meta has been literally braindead where it has not been an issue for any group i've seen so far and even in pug learning groups from SG for example, their logs all look proper with decent uptime in Might/Fury/Quick/Alac and some of them aren't playing meta at all.

Would love to see some of your logs where you claim might uptime is an issue because i guarantee it will go down to someone playing their class horribly or playing off-meta with no might gen, which is you creating the problem for yourself since might upkeep is built into meta builds for a reason.

[Elleandria.2846]

14 minutes ago, Hauwlyn.8051 said:

The goal post moved so much so quickly it probably did mimic double blink.

-Mentions bad pug problems
-uses a HAM that doesn't do 25 might and a druid only doing 10 as a counter-example
-readily admits best example doesn't even have 23 might, much less 25
-completely ignores the part about a specific spec being busted, not the overall meta

Like anyone with any sense, I litterally keep saying mecha is too easy to play, so clearly you either have the most abysmal reading comprehension or you're acting kitten throwing random insults off topic because I easily disproved your confident claim and hurt your ego. My money's on the latter.

Mind you in almost all instances Druids keep up with Mechs in might uptime and sometimes even surpass alacmechs in group gen (https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/log/20230515-192818_gors_kill) most meta groups are going to be running druids for their insane utility, just as HBs were before their rework. 22+ Might on movement fights is really good might uptime so maybe look over high end logs and see why people are running what they are running instead of just complaining 🙂 

[Hauwlyn.8051]

1 minute ago, Elleandria.2846 said:

Lol expect you didn't "Disprove" anything

I totally disproved your demonstration that what was a meta comp could supposedly do 10 might without their healer.

2 minutes ago, Elleandria.2846 said:

anything you just said you're too bad to play meta so you want meta removed so you can play trashcan auto classes like casuals do in open world which is why they had to nerf DE meta lol

Playing any meta spec beyond mechanist is being better than is strictly necessary to play meta, since mechanist is the easiest to play in any role it can do. Going way off topic here.

4 minutes ago, Elleandria.2846 said:

meta might uptime look like on two bosses where its the hardest to upkeep Cairn CM because of SAK+Agony and SH CM because of wall movements, both having 24 and 22 respectively which are more than enough for pugs to play their classes properly and even in meta situations seeing as i have top parses with those might uptimes 🙂 

Cairn is one thing, but the group doesn't need to split on SH, and the times you need to move are not enough to justify losing might on that comp, even if you get unlucky wall patterns.

5 minutes ago, Elleandria.2846 said:

Simply saying "I dislike this, remove it" is not listing a problem nor is it giving a solution to the problem only showing your immature attempts at malding over your made up issue lol might uptime in this meta has been literally braindead where it has not been an issue for any group i've seen so far and even in pug learning groups from SG for example, their logs all look proper with decent uptime in Might/Fury/Quick/Alac and some of them aren't playing meta at all.

First off, your idea of decent might is clearly different from mine
Second, I dislike the game being busted, and I mentionned "removing mechanist" as a thought experiment on where it would leave the average might on pugs, I don't want the spec actually removed, just balanced, I play it myself when I want an easy time.
You're still essentially dodging the "mecha is busted" question by going in circles here.

9 minutes ago, Elleandria.2846 said:

Would love to see some of your logs where you claim might uptime is an issue because i guarantee it will go down to someone playing their class horribly or playing off-meta with no might gen, which is you creating the problem for yourself since might upkeep is built into meta builds for a reason.

I already said that builds might be more meta precisely because they have more might, not just the other way around, and quite frankly I'm not bothering to provide examples when your own already prove my point.

4 minutes ago, Elleandria.2846 said:

Mind you in almost all instances Druids keep up with Mechs in might uptime and sometimes even surpass alacmechs in group gen (https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/log/20230515-192818_gors_kill) most meta groups are going to be running druids for their insane utility, just as HBs were before their rework. 22+ Might on movement fights is really good might uptime so maybe look over high end logs and see why people are running what they are running instead of just complaining 🙂 

I completely agree that current druid still has quite the easy time with might, almost as easy as mechanist.
Remember when we were talking about the might uptime a healer needs to provide and you were defending the point of view that they don't need to provide that much since you pretended the rest of the group could do plenty? Apparently that's not even a concern for those 2 specs. Don't think that goes against your initial position a tad?

[Elleandria.2846]

1 minute ago, Hauwlyn.8051 said:

I totally disproved your demonstration that what was a meta comp could supposedly do 10 might without their healer.

Playing any meta spec beyond mechanist is being better than is strictly necessary to play meta, since mechanist is the easiest to play in any role it can do. Going way off topic here.

Cairn is one thing, but the group doesn't need to split on SH, and the times you need to move are not enough to justify losing might on that comp, even if you get unlucky wall patterns.

First off, your idea of decent might is clearly different from mine
Second, I dislike the game being busted, and I mentionned "removing mechanist" as a thought experiment on where it would leave the average might on pugs, I don't want the spec actually removed, just balanced, I play it myself when I want an easy time.
You're still essentially dodging the "mecha is busted" question by going in circles here.

I already said that builds might be more meta precisely because they have more might, not just the other way around, and quite frankly I'm not bothering to provide examples when your own already prove my point.

I completely agree that current druid still has quite the easy time with might, almost as easy as mechanist.
Remember when we were talking about the might uptime a healer needs to provide and you were defending the point of view that they don't need to provide that much since you pretended the rest of the group could do plenty? Apparently that's not even a concern for those 2 specs. Don't think that goes against your initial position a tad?

Yeah again that's just a bunch of excuses that you can't play or won't play meta solely because you want every class to be viable in high end content (Which won't be the case) even though every class CAN be viable its just you have to be better than auto attack spamming a boss. The reason your argument falls flat is because you're trying to take the healers out of the equation and saying "See, ha, you cant keep up 22+ might" Except in literally every speedrun group you're going to see 1 druid heal and that's it, we STILL have 22+ might though lol no heals mechs and we don't even run mechs at all tbh because they aren't even in the meta rn.
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/log/20230612-202205_sab_kill
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/log/20230618-021107_gors_kill
🤔 I don't see any "OP Mechs" in those groups tbh

[Hauwlyn.8051]

1 minute ago, Elleandria.2846 said:

Yeah again that's just a bunch of excuses that you can't play or won't play meta solely because you want every class to be viable in high end content (Which won't be the case)

More than 2 specific classes doing 25 might easy = every class. Alright, taking notes here, yup.

2 minutes ago, Elleandria.2846 said:

The reason your argument falls flat is because you're trying to take the healers out of the equation and saying "See, ha, you cant keep up 22+ might" Except in literally every speedrun group you're going to see 1 druid heal and that's it, we STILL have 22+ might though lol

Litterally just earlier druid mains complaining they aren't meta. Maybe don't take your case for the general case?

3 minutes ago, Elleandria.2846 said:

Except in literally every speedrun group you're going to see 1 druid heal and that's it, we STILL have 22+ might though lol no heals mechs and we don't even run mechs at all tbh because they aren't even in the meta rn.
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/log/20230612-202205_sab_kill
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/log/20230618-021107_gors_kill
🤔 I don't see any "OP Mechs" in those groups tbh

Pretty funny you mention speedrun groups since after EOD release the majority of world records include a celestial mechanist whenever a healer is needed and I have yet to find one including a druid. I'm sure 2 very specific gorseval examples completely contradict that though, even if the fastest of the two lasts 32% longer than the WR.

[Elleandria.2846]

9 minutes ago, Hauwlyn.8051 said:

More than 2 specific classes doing 25 might easy = every class. Alright, taking notes here, yup.

Litterally just earlier druid mains complaining they aren't meta. Maybe don't take your case for the general case?

Pretty funny you mention speedrun groups since after EOD release the majority of world records include a celestial mechanist whenever a healer is needed and I have yet to find one including a druid. I'm sure 2 very specific gorseval examples completely contradict that though, even if the fastest of the two lasts 32% longer than the WR.

You're confusing speedrun groups with boss speed kill groups bud lol boss speed kill groups min/max for that specific encounter and STILL don't use Cele mech in this meta.

VG: Druid Solo Heal (No Mechs)(https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/log/20230623-230324_vg_kill)

Gors: Druid Solo Heal (No Mechs)(https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/log/ODwo-20230622-210955_gors)

Sab: Druid Solo Heal (Alac Mech DPS)(https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/log/ZinH-20230521-224159_sab)

Sloth: Druid Solo Heal (No Mechs)(https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/log/NZe9-20230618-224639_sloth)

So which groups have these "OP Cele Mechs" lol because they aren't Speedrun groups and they aren't Boss Speedkill groups. Might be some pug easy mode tanking that i don't know about but that's about it imo. On quick look at the fastest kills for bosses i don't even see any HAMs at all, so no clue where this "Remove Mechs" is coming from by the casuals. But again if you have any logs that say otherwise or show a "Might boon problem" then feel free to post them so we can see the issue and see if there REALLY is a might issue.

Edited June 24, 2023 by Elleandria.2846

[Hauwlyn.8051]

3 minutes ago, Elleandria.2846 said:

You're confusing speedrun groups with boss speed kill groups bud lol boss speed kill groups min/max for that specific encounter and STILL don't use Cele mech in this meta.

Current WRs using some variant of heal mecha: Sabetha, KC, Xera

Current WRs using druid: Cairn, done before EoD. If chronos and the DE still were in the state they were back then, you'd be using mecha and getting a better time. Same goes for SH and Dhuum, Largos. The only post EOD one is QTP, and it also uses a mechanist.

But yes, after moving the goalposts and going completely off topic several times, you made the point that druid is meta, something I was already agreeing with prior to quoting you. Congratulations. None of this addresses why Mechanist is busted, but at least you managed to make one good argument that was based on facts, even if wildly off topic.

24 minutes ago, Elleandria.2846 said:

so no clue where this "Remove Mechs" is coming from by the casuals.

I'm sure your extensive playtime dwarfing mine has gifted you with wisdom, fair assessments and objectivity. Which is why you are making so many points right now. Here's the answer your brain refused to process:

3 hours ago, Hauwlyn.8051 said:

Basically, remove mechanists, see how many more logs have atrocious might.

48 minutes ago, Hauwlyn.8051 said:

Second, I dislike the game being busted, and I mentionned "removing mechanist" as a thought experiment on where it would leave the average might on pugs, I don't want the spec actually removed, just balanced, I play it myself when I want an easy time.