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Alliance Beta and the Future of WvW Content


Wheeman.2861

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I'm creating this thread out of curiosity, as I've been a long time lurker but have never really posted anything here before. The Alliance beta and the addition of the mistwalker infusion had me pondering on the future of this game mode, and the game in general, and where/how Anet is even going with it. We've often heard the claim that WvW is a cornerstone of the game, and yet the Alliance system has been in beta for 5 years (I believe since 2018, yes?), no new maps have been added (sorry, I actually love the desert BL. It has so many features that make me love it, especially as a roamer. It's big, expansive, and has tons of fun features that no other BL has), no real new content has been added either (how fun would it be to have a water map with skiffs everywhere?), and the balance has only been getting increasingly worse, with the ArenaNet team seemingly becoming more and more tone deaf over time (nerf cele when?). All in all, things aren't looking good. In light of this, if you all were in charge of things and had the resources to add new features, what would you guys bring to WvW that you think would be fun? How would you fix it? I, personally, would want a water map that's Canthan themed, with beach-bases and canons mounted on our skiffs - and, of course, first order of business balance wise would be to nerf cele to its previous state.  

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1 minute ago, Wheeman.2861 said:

and yet the Alliance system has been in beta for 5 years (I believe since 2018, yes?),

that is what ANet wanted us (silently) want to believe, but is not actually the case. World Restructuring in general (not just alliances) haven´t been in active development basically before the end of 2021 (as stated on reddit by Grouch here): 

 

 

5 minutes ago, Wheeman.2861 said:

no new maps have been added

and they will probably never attempt this again, considering the massive backlash RBL got upon release, and how disliked it is by a large portion of players, even today (Note: i´m personally not much of a roamer, but i actually like red BL, despite it having its flaws). 
 

 

6 minutes ago, Wheeman.2861 said:

no real new content has been added either

well, "content" is always a rather weird definition for a competition-centered game-mode. It´s true that they could´ve introduced more, but the highest priority for such modes is always balance and functionality. ofc i would LOVE to see new stuff in WvW, but it´s not like in PvE, where they can just add another story to it (because, we don´t have, nor need any story to begin with. it´s an eternal war after all)

 

 

8 minutes ago, Wheeman.2861 said:

and the balance has only been getting increasingly worse, with the ArenaNet team seemingly becoming more and more tone deaf over time

this is also a double-edged sword, while being not entirely true, but also not entirely wrong either. 
I also think, that ArenaNet just in general lacks detailed insight into WvW itself, but they have to get their input about balance from... somewhere.... I may even go so far, that they actually are aware of all the problems that exist. 

However: just because you have a probelm identified, doesn´t mean that you also have a solution. Even if you consider "experts" (long-time players from a variety of "fields of expertise" in WvW) giving their input, that doesn´t mean anyone (neither these "experts" nor ANet themselves) are easily able to provide a solution. Even if there´s a hypothetical solution, that doesn´t mean that it works out in the end. 

So probably ANet even goes the other way, which would be the safe route. Ignoring all player-feedback (especially since the opinions that get voiced the loudest, especially in the forums, are also the most biased opintions as well) and looking at it just based on data (which the players don´t even remotely have access to). 

They´re probably going so far to force what they themselves envision for the game-mode, regardless of what the players want. Remember: ANet only designs the "playground" we all are playing on. WE however do what we want with it. That´s neither ANet´s fault, nor is it their concern either. 


 

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2 minutes ago, Custodio.6134 said:

that is what ANet wanted us (silently) want to believe, but is not actually the case. World Restructuring in general (not just alliances) haven´t been in active development basically before the end of 2021 (as stated on reddit by Grouch here): 

 

 

and they will probably never attempt this again, considering the massive backlash RBL got upon release, and how disliked it is by a large portion of players, even today (Note: i´m personally not much of a roamer, but i actually like red BL, despite it having its flaws). 
 

 

well, "content" is always a rather weird definition for a competition-centered game-mode. It´s true that they could´ve introduced more, but the highest priority for such modes is always balance and functionality. ofc i would LOVE to see new stuff in WvW, but it´s not like in PvE, where they can just add another story to it (because, we don´t have, nor need any story to begin with. it´s an eternal war after all)

 

 

this is also a double-edged sword, while being not entirely true, but also not entirely wrong either. 
I also think, that ArenaNet just in general lacks detailed insight into WvW itself, but they have to get their input about balance from... somewhere.... I may even go so far, that they actually are aware of all the problems that exist. 

However: just because you have a probelm identified, doesn´t mean that you also have a solution. Even if you consider "experts" (long-time players from a variety of "fields of expertise" in WvW) giving their input, that doesn´t mean anyone (neither these "experts" nor ANet themselves) are easily able to provide a solution. Even if there´s a hypothetical solution, that doesn´t mean that it works out in the end. 

So probably ANet even goes the other way, which would be the safe route. Ignoring all player-feedback (especially since the opinions that get voiced the loudest, especially in the forums, are also the most biased opintions as well) and looking at it just based on data (which the players don´t even remotely have access to). 

They´re probably going so far to force what they themselves envision for the game-mode, regardless of what the players want. Remember: ANet only designs the "playground" we all are playing on. WE however do what we want with it. That´s neither ANet´s fault, nor is it their concern either. 


 

My main aim with this post wasn't to imply that we know better than they do, I hope that it didn't come across like that. I was mainly just curious to see what everyone is desiring, really, given that we've had so few updates for the game mode. I also did not know development of the Alliance's had only just recently begun, per Davis's reddit post. I sincerely hope that this is a sign we're not only one step closer to a proper Alliance system, but once that's done, good lord would I like at least *something* new to do, content wise. Lol.

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38 minutes ago, Wheeman.2861 said:

how fun would it be to have a water map with skiffs everywhere?

Not fun at all.  It would be terrible, far worse than the DBL. This is why Anet will never make another map. You love DBL and a water map, I hate  DBL and a water map. As far as I’m concerned they aren’t even a WvW map; more like a PvE map. 
As for what I would want is after they finish World Restructuring; implement game mechanics that will counter the natural population and time zone imbalances that exist. 

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It's not the cornerstone. They were trying to make WvWers feel good.

The combat system is a complete turnoff for the vast majority of people who give pvp a try. 

I can scream until I'm red that WvW is fun or that hockey is better than soccer or whatever else. People have voted with their feet and their eyeballs. The combat system is not fun. The way WvW is designed and operated at a fundamental level sucks.

If I was in charge I would start development on Guild Wars 3 with the view of making an easy to understand combat system where player mastery and innovation is what creates differences. Think about GunZ The Duel. You have a sword with attack and block, a choice of a few guns, a med kit and an armor kit and you could jump and dash. And player innovation and skill took over to combine that simple short list into complex fighting tactics. The game was pay to win but it survived several years with a relatively healthy playerbase. Guild Wars doesn't have to be that simple or fast paced but the idea is you don't overwhelm people. Guild Wars 1 for example limited you to 8 skills. It attracted a much larger pvp playerbase for much longer.

And once a combat system that's intuitive and easy to learn but hard to master is established... it's time to look at map design and reward design.

We are approaching 11 years of Guild Wars 2. The combat system has only gotten more cluttered and complex over the years. It's not a game of skill where someone can feel like they have a chance if they pull off a well timed dodge or they land a skillshot. No. Your opponent can spam the living kitten out of their abilities to run away or overwhelm you. It's much closer to a game of spreadsheets, of memorization and if that's what I wanted I would spend my weekends working at my job or playing Eve Online or something. I had more fun in open world pvp, wars and outpost rush in New World despite all its flaws and failures.

Keep the reward treadmill going to bring in new players. Look for a fresh start with Guild Wars 3 would be my decision if I was in charge.

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11 minutes ago, Leger.3724 said:

Keep the reward treadmill going to bring in new players. Look for a fresh start with Guild Wars 3 would be my decision if I was in charge.

Yeah that's not gonna happen for a long time, they just reinvested with dx11 and steam there's no way they're not going to ride that for another 5-10 years unless the gem store and expansion sales dramatically die down. Also if they did a gw3 I bet they would cut out the mass pvp and stick to arena pvp only. 🤷‍♂️

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1 hour ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Yeah that's not gonna happen for a long time, they just reinvested with dx11 and steam there's no way they're not going to ride that for another 5-10 years unless the gem store and expansion sales dramatically die down. Also if they did a gw3 I bet they would cut out the mass pvp and stick to arena pvp only. 🤷‍♂️

I agree, I expect them to ride out Guild Wars 2 for many more years because the pve community is still relatively healthy and with the design of the game it's an easy sell to the casual player. The combat system is much less relevant in PvE because you can tune the bosses to create difficulty or you can add unique mechanics/skills/actions or remove them or nerf them. You can modify the AI essentially to make the content however you want. You can't do that when it's one player facing another player or 50 facing another 50.

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On 6/11/2023 at 6:03 PM, Custodio.6134 said:

and they will probably never attempt this again, considering the massive backlash RBL got upon release, and how disliked it is by a large portion of players, even today (Note: i´m personally not much of a roamer, but i actually like red BL, despite it having its flaws). 

And that would be a real shame. If you do nothing, no one will ever criticize you, if you do something new you will always get a series of criticisms. But, if I may tell you, who cares. Please don't make 1 new map, but make 10 new maps, and rotate them continuously. Nobody cares if we get a series of cries inside this forum. Stay calm, and pull straight on your way.

Stay calm, and pull straight on your way. WWW needs lots of new maps.✌️

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1 minute ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

Please don't make 1 new map, but make 10 new maps, and rotate them continuously.

While this does (to some extent) sound appealing, it would go against the nature of a large-scale competetive mode. you cannot design a ton of maps, that are all fair on the same level to everyone. We already have an example: Desert borderland. DBL is played (on a mechanical and practical level) vastly different than Alpine BL. Which, just by design, gives advantages to one, and disadvantages to the other team. 

It is impossible to make a different map, without changing its dynamcis. Because, let´s say, we do an Echovald-based map (theme wise), but make it work and be structured (in terms of objective-placement, pathing and distances) just like Alpine BL, what would we get? --> a reskinned version of Alpine BL, which under the skin, is in fact  just Alpine BL. 

I actually wouldn´t even mind that. Just for the visual seperation of the 3 borderlands (where, in my example, an Echovald-based map would definitely fit GBL). 

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8 minutes ago, Custodio.6134 said:

While this does (to some extent) sound appealing, it would go against the nature of a large-scale competetive mode. you cannot design a ton of maps, that are all fair on the same level to everyone. We already have an example: Desert borderland. DBL is played (on a mechanical and practical level) vastly different than Alpine BL. Which, just by design, gives advantages to one, and disadvantages to the other team. 

It is impossible to make a different map, without changing its dynamcis. Because, let´s say, we do an Echovald-based map (theme wise), but make it work and be structured (in terms of objective-placement, pathing and distances) just like Alpine BL, what would we get? --> a reskinned version of Alpine BL, which under the skin, is in fact  just Alpine BL. 

I actually wouldn´t even mind that. Just for the visual seperation of the 3 borderlands (where, in my example, an Echovald-based map would definitely fit GBL). 

I understand what you're saying Custodio. We're not even saying that new map = new game. Keep the right proportions and the same structures, then put on and take away everything you want. bottlenecks, plateaus, bridges, water crossings, ascents and descents. The environment around you also influences the way you play it.

We must not be afraid of new maps. No one wants to upset the way we play/participate in this beautiful mode. It just has to be a way to make WWW less obvious/less monotonous. We bring some fresh air to WWW as well. Not just PVE please.

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