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So is the goals with the nerfs and new wvw changes to make it one dimension?


Yngvi.3452

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Just wondering not everyone likes to run in a HUGE mindless group attacking other HUGE mindless groups.  Seems like its going to become very one dimension and when those leaders that love running about in HUGE mindless groups gets tired is there going to be anything left for the ppl that don't play that way.  Just curious whether I should continue to invest time here.  

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Go build a catapult and start taking a tower alone then ping something about it in map chat. I almost guarantee you get 1-3 people. Now if only we could ping enemies too so I can get fights quicker….

Edited by oscuro.9720
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Anet doesn't actually create or push any meta. The players do. 

If you don't like it. Start a guild, make your own goals, fight the way you want. Or quit. If you are waiting for Anet to do something for you, you are wasting your own time. 

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2 hours ago, oscuro.9720 said:

Go build a catapult and start taking a tower alone then ping something about it in map chat. I almost guarantee you get 1-3 people. Now if only we could ping enemies too so I can get fights quicker….

lol - Just this morning I threw up a cata at our spawn tower by myself and without even pinging the map was immediately joined by 3 other players. After the four of us capped the tower one of them asked if we wanted to form a squad. They then threw up a tag and proceeded to rampage around the map with that small pug squad.

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1 hour ago, Chichimec.9364 said:

lol - Just this morning I threw up a cata at our spawn tower by myself and without even pinging the map was immediately joined by 3 other players. After the four of us capped the tower one of them asked if we wanted to form a squad. They then threw up a tag and proceeded to rampage around the map with that small pug squad.

That’s great! The wvw community that isn’t in team chat is actually fantastic! You just need to, ya know, talk to people. It’s really easy tog eat pug groups going, but people just assume no one would follow them.

Spoiler; no one cares if you are a kitten commander because most of them know they’d be as bad or worse.

If someone does, offer them the tag, and if they don’t have one, ignore them. 

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4 hours ago, oscuro.9720 said:

Go build a catapult and start taking a tower alone then ping something about it in map chat. I almost guarantee you get 1-3 people. Now if only we could ping enemies too so I can get fights quicker….

That is what I did for years, but I have a squad now, found my people! When I look back I question myself, how I did that to platinum rank LMAO, when you have a squad everything gets done faster, easier, more fun! and so warm and fuzzy, not to mention all the hilarious chatter in Discord!! Join a squad! find your people!! 

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I understand all that... but with the changes anet i think your fooling your selves about anet leaving it gearing for huge squads.  Look at the nerfs and how they are molding game play.  Squad play is fun but its not everything in here.  Pickup pugs and roaming is probably the most fun in the game.   Having one guy tell everyone what to do is okay for an hour or so but after away its f... boring.  Specially if all they do is set up for a huge bag farming event which it seems is all this is turning into during the test.  What happens in a few months when everyone including the tag gets tired of mindless eating other groups.  If there is no diversity if there is no other goals then this mode is going to be worse off than what it is now.   I no there is a core group that wants it too be huge squad against huge squad but is it sustainable.   

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21 hours ago, Zikory.6871 said:

Anet doesn't actually create or push any meta. The players do. 
(snip)

ANet heavily encourages a meta and players follow the easiest route that gives them the most rewards / rewarding experience of supremacy.

The current encouragement by ANet is favouring things that remove individual players agency and handing over participation and decision making to a single zerg commander or a "loot driven hive mind" of a k-train. Being a clever single player or a small party sized group can be highly rewarding on a social or emotional level, it is vastly outperformed by "just ball up" in terms of rewards and how to beat shortcomings of the game mechanics (like the broken defence participation that became obvious with the removal of wall repairs).

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I get what you're saying, these days smaller groups struggle forcing relatively fair fights due to objective auras and the fact that there are always 15+ defenders available in higher tier servers. You just cannot take a keep without 40 people if you take more than 4 minutes to get inside: defenders will just mow you down by the fact that they take 25% less damage and deal 15% while having lords, sieges, respawns and tactivators helping them.

Essentially if you can't have 40 people, it is just pointless to take anything that has worth to both sides. Yes you can still attempt and succeed as they might not show up to defend because they don't care, but that just shows defending is also boring because of how easy it is.

Anyways there won't be any support for smaller groups or decent fights near objectives. Their beloved PvE playerbase would complain too much about their hardearned guild hall upgrades losing value.

Edited by Riba.3271
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Some players do not realise that the "meta" is subordinated to the current gameplay (environment, skills, gear, etc), not the other way around.

The meta is by definition the optimal solution (i.e. the best you can do) GIVEN the current gameplay. Of course the meta changes, but ONLY AFTER the gameplay changes e.g. skill updates, new specs / classes are added or new gear is available.

Edited by Meva.8327
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On 6/13/2023 at 9:50 PM, Zikory.6871 said:

Anet doesn't actually create or push any meta. The players do. 

Anet creates and changes the game and with it the conditions applicable to the players. This not only changes the meta (min-maxing, BiS/best-in-slot, most efficient), but also, within certain limits, the behavior of many players.

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June 27, 2023

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Where your life will be a pleasure. Enjoy every moment wrapped and accommodated in our exclusive mix of boons. You will feel at home, well wrapped as if you were among feathers and as comfortable as in your sweet dreams on the best viscoelastic mattress.

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3 hours ago, Gorani.7205 said:

ANet heavily encourages a meta and players follow the easiest route that gives them the most rewards / rewarding experience of supremacy.

The current encouragement by ANet is favouring things that remove individual players agency and handing over participation and decision making to a single zerg commander or a "loot driven hive mind" of a k-train. Being a clever single player or a small party sized group can be highly rewarding on a social or emotional level, it is vastly outperformed by "just ball up" in terms of rewards and how to beat shortcomings of the game mechanics (like the broken defence participation that became obvious with the removal of wall repairs).

I dont play in a 50 man zerg or care about rewards so this entire comment just reinforces my point. Players choose to take the path of least resistance. The players are the ones choosing rewards over fights. I'd rather fight strong like minded groups bit they harder to come by nowadays. 

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1 hour ago, Zok.4956 said:

Anet creates and changes the game and with it the conditions applicable to the players. This not only changes the meta (min-maxing, BiS/best-in-slot, most efficient), but also, within certain limits, the behavior of many players.

Where do you think squad comps and builds come from? Anet? Metabattle? 

Do you actually think most groups or players are actually "BiS"? Best in slot for what? Range? Melee? Ktraining. 

You all complain about the casual players and anet making WvW more accessible to them. Then complain about it being to hard for you? A supposedly knowledgeable or veteran player... Anet just balanced your "skill" out of the game. 

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again farming isn't much fun so who cares how efficient it is.  I play games for fun and competition.  Running about in HUGE squads with one person leading again is supper boring and not very skilled once you get the meta down and listen to the leader.  Sounds like you got sold a load of crap from a few guilds that want it this way.   Not everyone cares to play in a HUGE squad.  And usually huge squads are only at peak times so what happens when your fighting one squad that peaks at 2 and your guys don't get in till 7:30....  This will result in the same issues we are having with mag and them fielding huge numbers nearly every part of the day... which just kills it for everyone else.  At the very least look into where this is the way you want this game to go and stop listening to the few for a moment.   Farming ppl, farming bosses farming pretty much sucks after awhile.   Put it some place for the rest of us that don't want to mindlessly run around with some egotist tag please.   

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27 minutes ago, Yngvi.3452 said:

again farming isn't much fun so who cares how efficient it is.  I play games for fun and competition.  Running about in HUGE squads with one person leading again is supper boring and not very skilled once you get the meta down and listen to the leader.  Sounds like you got sold a load of crap from a few guilds that want it this way.   Not everyone cares to play in a HUGE squad.  And usually huge squads are only at peak times so what happens when your fighting one squad that peaks at 2 and your guys don't get in till 7:30....  This will result in the same issues we are having with mag and them fielding huge numbers nearly every part of the day... which just kills it for everyone else.  At the very least look into where this is the way you want this game to go and stop listening to the few for a moment.   Farming ppl, farming bosses farming pretty much sucks after awhile.   Put it some place for the rest of us that don't want to mindlessly run around with some egotist tag please.   

Wild. You don't determine what people find fun or how they get to spend their time. What did the roamers always used to say to fight guilds? I bought the game, I can play how I want. 

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Not if its geared to huge squads with less boon stripping and more boons... the most organized and equiped  squads will win and everyone else will leave.  Sorry but you can't convince me this is healthy for the game.... 

 

Look what happen in wvw hayday... tons of ppl all queueing up to be lead about, if you were not geared you didn't get to play if you did't have the "discord " of the day you didn't play.   That lasted for about 12 to 18 months then everyone got bored and left.  There was no one left to take their places.   This will happen again.  Running about in huge squads is fun for only so long... its like ktrains just f... boring after a bit.  

 

Edited by Yngvi.3452
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11 hours ago, Yngvi.3452 said:

I understand all that... but with the changes anet i think your fooling your selves about anet leaving it gearing for huge squads.  Look at the nerfs and how they are molding game play.  Squad play is fun but its not everything in here.  Pickup pugs and roaming is probably the most fun in the game.   Having one guy tell everyone what to do is okay for an hour or so but after away its f... boring.  Specially if all they do is set up for a huge bag farming event which it seems is all this is turning into during the test.  What happens in a few months when everyone including the tag gets tired of mindless eating other groups.  If there is no diversity if there is no other goals then this mode is going to be worse off than what it is now.   I no there is a core group that wants it too be huge squad against huge squad but is it sustainable.   

But hey! It works out! You know why?

The commander gets extra pips and rewards for commanding and farming bags. Sure, it's fun for the tag. Not sure about the rest of us, though...

I've been keeping tabs on a lot of recent wvw nerfs lately: elementalist Meteor Shower, boon-stripping, defensive structures. You want to know the common factor that I observe? These are effective and take momentum from the zerg.

Well...can't have THAT can we?

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if only we could take a break from zerging from time to time and do some repairs, escort a doliak, or build something  and not lose pips... maybe add pips for being bullied by "roamers" (who only attack the weakest quagans in wvw 😐 )

Edited by Efar.8153
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1 hour ago, Efar.8153 said:

if only we could take a break from zerging from time to time and do some repairs, escort a doliak or build something  and not lose pips...

Escorting a Dolyak gives 5 minutes of participation if completed.

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8 hours ago, Zikory.6871 said:
10 hours ago, Zok.4956 said:

Anet creates and changes the game and with it the conditions applicable to the players. This not only changes the meta (min-maxing, BiS/best-in-slot, most efficient), but also, within certain limits, the behavior of many players.

Where do you think squad comps and builds come from? Anet? Metabattle?

They are coming from the game. Players can try to find the "optimal" solution/build for the actual version of the game environment but can not change the game environment. You should take a step back and look at the big picture.

An example: Sure, players decide squad comps and if they require/want boons like Alac/Quick in their squad because it is a DPS increase. But it is Anet who gave Alac/Quick the importance in game for DPS as it is now.  If Anet would (hypothetically) remove Alac/Quick from the game, players would adapt and metabattle builds would change.

 

8 hours ago, Zikory.6871 said:

Do you actually think most groups or players are actually "BiS"? Best in slot for what? Range? Melee? Ktraining. 

A lot of groups are, or at least try to be,  BiS/optimal for the actual game encounter / challenge.

That's why metabattle exists and Snowcrows (and others) are doing their benchmarks.

Players (not all, of course)  choose different builds when roamining in WvW or if they have a specific role in their squad.

 

8 hours ago, Zikory.6871 said:

You all complain about the casual players and anet making WvW more accessible to them. Then complain about it being to hard for you? A supposedly knowledgeable or veteran player... 

It seems you are confusing something and arguing against a straw man argument. Because I didn't write that at all.

 

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I don't really think there's a goal.

My thought is the balance changes in this game generally take the path of least resistance; eg whatever is less work for them. For the vast majority of the game's existence, the classes have always been balanced around what they do in pve. WvW is merely the minigame that sometimes gets the extra thought when there's nothing better to do.

It seems more that they don't know what to do about WvW. It was probably never intended to be as popular as it turned out to be. Originally, WvW was supposed to be the bridge to Esports PvP. It was a place where people could come from pve and visit a game mode with pve and pvp elements.

Of course the Esports dream failed, and WvW is basically just a bridge to nowhere. Meanwhile the focus is on casual pve content and there really is no need for balance there. The highest level of play desired in this game now basically is about who can hit a target dummy the hardest and moaning about it when you realize you can only hit a target dummy 92% as hard as someone else.

I don't envy the designers for sure.** It's been years of neglect and general apathy that really drove away too many that cared and it's just really hard to steer the game in any direction. Surely, many of you despise that style of play, but there are probably those in their ear that do and for whatever reason they're winning.

And regardless of what anyone considers "skilled" play, I do not believe the community at large really cares about that. In fact, a lot of people seem to despise any form of skill expression.

But could you blame them? A player new to WvW, not necessarily new to the game, seems all this aoe boon cc vomit in big fights. And then trying to get away from this lag fest, they run into unkillable bunkers with near infinite mobility.

And then maybe after a few hours they see some sensible fights but it lasts all of 10 minutes because they can't balance population with nonsensical links. What do you think these people outside of the WvWer bubble see? Trashy, poorly thought out (actually, zero thoughts in) "gameplay" that isn't worth the time of day to bother with.

** I mean this in all earnest in that I don't hold too much against the current employees. In fact, if you gave me complete control over the game right now, I probably couldn't save WvW either. It's just sad really.

Edited by ArchonWing.9480
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