Jump to content
  • Sign Up

Druid Buffs Are A Nerf In Competitive


Recommended Posts

Eclipse needs to be reverted back into Ancient Seeds.

 

On paper, the Druid condi buffs for CA Kit that are replacing Ancient Seeds, looks like it'll be a buff.

On paper, even the choice of Grace Of The Land doing Alacrity, makes the untrained eye feel like "Druid Support will be viable!"

But none of this is true, here is why:

  1. CA Kit skills are null, they don't work at all. Not only is the base heal output terrible even with heal stats, but the primary problem is that they are too slow and must be aimed. Things like Tempest and Core Guard use skills that immediately with no cast time or requirement to aim, just effect everyone in a massive radius. The CA Kit skills must be aimed with big channels. In pve, players will stand still while doing DPS rotations so the Druid can aim the CA Kit on a party stack. But in pvp, players are moving all over the place. They don't stand still for you to reliably land any of these aimed skills with big channel times. Point being: It is highly unrealistic to support players with CA Kit because it is highly unrealistic to be able to reliably land the heals & cleanse on them.
  2. Now we're talking about the condi damage being added to CA Kit. Same problem here: If you can't land heals on your party, how are you going to land condis on opponents? And upon this, because they are aimed skills, you have to choose between trying to aim to heal party members or aiming to deal damage to opponents? Again, this is just clunky ineffective design and does nothing to address the actual problems CA Kit has, mainly with the skills being too difficult to land on teammates or opponents in competitive modes. Upon this, when a Druid enters CA Kit, they become insanely prone to taking damage. The skills are too slow, they take too long to channel, and the kit has no evades or blocks or  anything like that in the way Conjure Earth Shield does or a Firebrand's  support kits. When players see a Druid go into CA Kit, it puts a red target on the Druid's head to "go burst and kill it now" because it has no offensive pressure and it has very little kiting ability. Furthermore, even with skills like Lightning Reflexes, the CA Kit skills don't pop & activate quickly enough like a Guard or Ele's support skills, so you start to try and finish a channel for your party but then you have to interrupt all this stuff to be able to dodge and evade and counterplay instant burst death. It's all bad design. The last part of this is that the condis being added to CA Kit in place of Ancient Seeds, would need to be very high output DPS to make any difference at all. When a Druid goes into CA Kit, they lose the offensive pressure from their Shortbow and w/e other condi side they are using. When there is no offensive pressure, this is when players push you when you are in CA Kit. If those condis in the CA Kit aren't somewhat equal to the offensive pressure you'd be dealing with Shortbow & w/e other weapon set, the healing you are trying to land won't be worth the DPS you are taking by staying in the CA Kit,and this isn't even to mention how hard the CA Kit skills will be to land on opponents. Inevitably those CA Kit skills with condis will only be useful to land on opponents in a big team fight who aren't paying attention. In a 1v1 on a side node, no one is going to get hit by those CA Kit skills. This also will effect Druid very little in WvW. It'll raise its personal DPS slightly while zerging when it's easy to throw an AoE into 30 guys and tag hits, but it will be easily arguable that Ancient Seeds is more valuable for tagging roots on specific targets so your zerg can run the straggler over.
  3. The removal of Ancient Seeds is going to be absolutely detrimental to Druid's survivability. Unlike Soulbeast and Untamed, which have extra mobility skills like Gazelle F2 merge run or Superspeed on elite with additional ways to stealth off Unleash, Druid is as slow as a Core Ranger and has limited disengage. Druid survivability largely depends not on out-kiting other classes/builds, but rather it keeps them away from itself with immobs & roots. These traits have been the same for so long that the Druid's class balance has been being balanced around this factor for a very long time, whether intentionally or not. Removing the 20s CD Ancient Seed Immob/Root will result in the Druid not being able to keep aggressive classes/builds away from it. It will not posses enough face tanking value like an Ele or a Guard to be able to support a team when it losses this ability to keep things away from it. Even in 1v1s, it will not possess enough face tanking ability or kiting ability to keep something like current Bladesworn away from it, or a Catalyst, or a Thief, or anything else that has greater mobility. The removal of Ancient Seeds alone, is not a simple DPS drop. It is an incredible handicap to the Druid's ability to self sustain and stay alive. The removal of this skill will instantly zap & kill any viability people thought might exist for running a Druid Support.
  4. Adding alacrity to Grace Of Land is a great idea, both for pve and pvp. However, it wouldn't be able to be selected and used in pvp anyway, because people would need Ancient Seeds on a condi build to be able to self-sustain long enough to do anything valuable. In wvw, I'm sure it'll be a fun thing to do while hiding in a zerg, but it will be a moot change for pvp.
  5. All in all, I LIKE the idea & direction behind the changes, but you guys have to give Druid more in other places if you're going to remove Ancient Seeds. If you don't, it will kill all condi versions of Druid for pvp, DPS and Support will become less viable than they are now. Grace Of Land will slightly empower power based Druid builds who opt to not take Ancient Seeds to begin with. But even those builds, don't linger in CA Kit very long to really spam or make use of Alacrity casts. Anyone who seriously plays Druid into Plat+ margins or in ATs would tell you that the Druid still leans so hard on the two traits Druidic Clarity and Celestial Shadow. The biggest factor in understanding how to be a great Druid player, is understanding that you never stay in the CA Kit longer than to blast a #3 on a #2 and then you leave. This is so you can preserve maximum CA energy so that when the 20s CD is up, you can immediately go back into CA Kit to benefit Druid Clarity and Celestial Shadow again as quickly as possible. Players who try to linger in the CA Kit, end up wasting way too much CA energy trying to toss around negligent heals, and then their CA Kit CD to be able to benefit DC and CS is more like 30-35 seconds instead of 20s, and that gets you killed. The effects of DC and CS are far better sustain than the small heals tossed forth from the CA Kit.

Again, I like the idea & direction behind these changes, but someone needed to point this out ^

What you guys need to do if you want to get serious about enabling a real functional Druid Support archetype that isn't going to be flop, are two possible suggestions that would tend to aforementioned problems above:

  1. Put the CA Kit pvp split of 20s CD back down to 10s like it is in pve and wvw. This will give Druid the opportunity to more frequently be able to use the CA Kit for support purposes instead of having to always preserve it for its own self-sustain because the CD is too long. And this won't be a problem because USUALLY in actual engaged combat, the CA Kit energy doesn't return quickly enough to really cycle any faster than about 20s anyway. However, SOMETIMES if a person were to use Dolyak Rune for extra CA kit gain, and popped a heal utility right after the use of a CA Kit, everyone once in a while they'd be able to benefit the 10s CD, but this wouldn't be so often. It's not like going from 20s to 10s is going to equate to always having CA Kit twice as often as normal. Realistically if you averaged it out with how real combat goes, it would equate more realistically 15s uses in most cases. This would also help the Druid have more short stealth detargets and short superspeed repositions to compensate for the loss for Ancient Seeds root that was detrimental in keeping opponents away from itself.
  2. One thing that would immediately make CA Kit a viable support for competitive: Take the #4 CA Kit skill Rejuvinating Tides, and change it so it is an instant cast and that continues even after leaving CA Kit. THIS would make CA Kit viable. You could either pop it right when you go into CA Kit and then proceed to use CA Kit #3 on it for a blast in the water field, or you could use CA Kit #3 onto the #2 for the cleanse, and then pop Rejuvinating Tides before leaving CA Kit so that when you leave CA kit, you can use the Warhorn blast in the water field or a Staff blast, ect ect, or simply let it pulse the heal while your weapons are out so you can actually counterplay, making these small heals not useless. Granting Rejuvinating Tides a buff like this, would enabel so so much more complex play strategy with the CA Kit and overall value with it, even in pve.
  3. Or you could just leave Ancient Seeds alone and add those condis buffs to CA Kit as a baseline. This is probably what should have been done to begin with.

Anyway, these kinds of changes ^ would be very simple to implement. This is no wild suggestion about some kind of massive overhaul that I'm sure Arenanet does not care to do. These would be easy to do, and then Druid could be functional.

Edited by Trevor Boyer.6524
  • Like 3
  • Thanks 5
  • Haha 5
  • Confused 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the condi pressure along with the ability to run rabid amulet will help land kills faster. Stealth, healing in CA, superspeed and stealth leaving CA, ult roots, pet roots, weapon blocks etc will be enough to rotate through to keep you alive long enough to land a kill. Right now I really can't beat well played druids. It's a constant cycle of hell lol 

  • Haha 2
  • Sad 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

As far as support goes, I think it depends on how reliable the regen on allies is and if the 240 radius on cosmic ray is reliable enough. If your constantly giving regen its procing windborne notes which is procing live vicariously. Regen+those+rugged growth and you are passively healing quite a lot

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

On paper, the Druid condi buffs for CA Kit that are replacing Ancient Seeds, looks like it'll be a buff.

On paper, even the choice of Grace Of The Land doing Alacrity, makes the untrained eye feel like "Druid Support will be viable!"

But none of this is true, here is why:

  1. CA Kit skills are null, they don't work at all. Not only is the base heal output terrible even with heal stats, but the primary problem is that they are too slow and must be aimed. Things like Tempest and Core Guard use skills that immediately with no cast time or requirement to aim, just effect everyone in a massive radius. The CA Kit skills must be aimed with big channels. In pve, players will stand still while doing DPS rotations so the Druid can aim the CA Kit on a party stack. But in pvp, players are moving all over the place. They don't stand still for you to reliably land any of these aimed skills with big channel times. Point being: It is highly unrealistic to support players with CA Kit because it is highly unrealistic to be able to reliably land the heals & cleanse on them. 

I doubt you play support druid based on what youre typing. All of their heals are extremely easy to land on allies in sPvP, especially CA 3. All of them provide high healing output with avatar/Sages army. The glyph heal alone heals 8.5k to allies without even having to take Lingering Light. I run Ancient Seeds on my current suppport Druid build and the glyph legit heals 8.5k. Druid has by far the highest healing output out of any support and its not even close. Seed of Life(CA 2) also has 0 cast time, meaning you can use while channeling all of your other abilities. This ability also goes off almost instantly. Just super easy to land 

Tempest has the weakest healing skill in the game for PvP in Wash Away The Pain. The first tick of that skill is a measly 180 range. Tempest also doesn't have the added benefit of druids insane mobility with staff 3 and MH sword. Core Guard also doesn't have the toolkit that Druid has(mobility, stealth, superspeed) 

"Tempest and Core Guard use skills that immediately with no cast time or requirement to aim, just effect everyone in a massive radius." - Trevor Boyer

Name a single skill that does this.

Here's my current Build if you want to see just how broken support Druid is ATM. I will agree that removal of Ancient Seeds will potentially be a nerf to support Druid. The changes will require playtesting though. More frequent Avatar does sound quite strong. 

2 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

 

Now we're talking about the condi damage being added to CA Kit. Same problem here: If you can't land heals on your party, how are you going to land condis on opponents? And upon this, because they are aimed skills, you have to choose between trying to aim to heal party members or aiming to deal damage to opponents? Again, this is just clunky ineffective design and does nothing to address the actual problems CA Kit has, mainly with the skills being too difficult to land on teammates or opponents in competitive modes. Upon this, when a Druid enters CA Kit, they become insanely prone to taking damage. The skills are too slow, they take too long to channel, and the kit has no evades or blocks or  anything like that in the way Conjure Earth Shield does or a Firebrand's  support kits. When players see a Druid go into CA Kit, it puts a red target on the Druid's head to "go burst and kill it now" because it has no offensive pressure and it has very little kiting ability. Furthermore, even with skills like Lightning Reflexes, the CA Kit skills don't pop & activate quickly enough like a Guard or Ele's support skills, so you start to try and finish a channel for your party but then you have to interrupt all this stuff to be able to dodge and evade and counterplay instant burst death. It's all bad design. The last part of this is that the condis being added to CA Kit in place of Ancient Seeds, would need to be very high output DPS to make any difference at all. When a Druid goes into CA Kit, they lose the offensive pressure from their Shortbow and w/e other condi side they are using. When there is no offensive pressure, this is when players push you when you are in CA Kit. If those condis in the CA Kit aren't somewhat equal to the offensive pressure you'd be dealing with Shortbow & w/e other weapon set, the healing you are trying to land won't be worth the DPS you are taking by staying in the CA Kit,and this isn't even to mention how hard the CA Kit skills will be to land on opponents. Inevitably those CA Kit skills with condis will only be useful to land on opponents in a big team fight who aren't paying attention. In a 1v1 on a side node, no one is going to get hit by those CA Kit skills. This also will effect Druid very little in WvW. It'll raise its personal DPS slightly while zerging when it's easy to throw an AoE into 30 guys and tag hits, but it will be easily arguable that Ancient Seeds is more valuable for tagging roots on specific targets so your zerg can run the straggler over.

Here's how it's going to work, CA 3 is so easy to land on both allies and enemies, stop trying to deny it. It's going to immob people with the condi trait, meaning you can more easily land CA 5, which is going to be the main pumper skill. You can also cast 2 while you channel 5. Glyph of Tides is going to have extremely strong synergy with condi Druid next patch and I could see most condi builds running this skill. It's just way too good to not take. You can use it for peel or combo with your CA skills. 

Another thing that you are overlooking is druids will be inflicting bleed via ANY immobilize or disable, which will give condi Druid way more pump. Shortbow will do even more condi dmg, all pets with disables will do more damage, things like iboga etc. 

CA SKILLS ARE NOT HARD TO LAND, THEYRE EASY AS kitten. 

2 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
  1. The removal of Ancient Seeds is going to be absolutely detrimental to Druid's survivability. Unlike Soulbeast and Untamed, which have extra mobility skills like Gazelle F2 merge run or Superspeed on elite with additional ways to stealth off Unleash, Druid is as slow as a Core Ranger and has limited disengage. Druid survivability largely depends not on out-kiting other classes/builds, but rather it keeps them away from itself with immobs & roots. These traits have been the same for so long that the Druid's class balance has been being balanced around this factor for a very long time, whether intentionally or not. Removing the 20s CD Ancient Seed Immob/Root will result in the Druid not being able to keep aggressive classes/builds away from it. It will not posses enough face tanking value like an Ele or a Guard to be able to support a team when it losses this ability to keep things away from it. Even in 1v1s, it will not possess enough face tanking ability or kiting ability to keep something like current Bladesworn away from it, or a Catalyst, or a Thief, or anything else that has greater mobility. The removal of Ancient Seeds alone, is not a simple DPS drop. It is an incredible handicap to the Druid's ability to self sustain and stay alive. The removal of this skill will instantly zap & kill any viability people thought might exist for running a Druid Support

I legit have 0 idea where you are getting this idea that Druid had no mobility. In fact, it has extremely high mobility and the most amount of access to stealth.  Celestial Shadow is straight up the strongest trait in the Druid tree and everyone should be running it. Druid staff 3 is also a 1200 range dash AND a potential blast for stealth. I agree that removing Ancient Seeds is potentially a nerf to Druid survivability, particularly support druid. However, I think Druid will start playing around way more with its stealth field via smoke scale. And now smokescale will actually do some bleed damage from its knockdown, it's not a lot, but it's something to go along with druids strongest pet. Smokescale is basically the linchpin of most ranger builds unfortunately, or fortunately depending how you think about it. 

As far as power Druid is concerned, it might be dead without Ancient Seeds, but it could potentially work with the Alacrity trait. As I said before though, Glyph of Tides new meta. If they made glyph of tides a blast finisher, it would be so kittening good

  • Like 1
  • Confused 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, WhoWantsAHug.3186 said:

"Tempest and Core Guard use skills that immediately with no cast time or requirement to aim, just effect everyone in a massive radius." - Trevor Boyer

Name a single skill that does this.

Holy moly, you need to chill a bit xD Almost every aura! For example the air dagger 3.

You hit the button, and everyone in a big radius will be healed, cleansed/get protection, and have the benefits of the shockaura themselves.  There is no casttime, you dont have to target anyone and you can even do it while being CCed.

Swapping to fire does the same. If you run Staff, the Earth 3 does the same, water 4 does the same. Aftershock does the same. CES does the same on spawning the shield and on the 3. You even have 2 passive auras that get periodically triggered just from you existing in a fight.

 

But i have to give one thing to you.... my brother is playing Support/Bruiser Druid and it works quite well... Its nowhere toptier or "broken" as you call it.... but it sure pumps out decent healing and cleanses.

Id still rather have a capable Support Tempest tho! The "how you apply it" part of Druid is just not up to the standard that Tempest is setting.  Even when completly being selfish and only sustaining for youself, you heal at almost 100% effectiveness to allies, because it just trickles down to them. Thats what makes Tempest so good in all skillbrackets. All you have to do is survive... and the rest just happens passive.

Edited by Sahne.6950
  • Thanks 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Thats what makes Tempest so good in all skillbrackets. All you have to do is survive... and the rest just happens passive.

The other part of the problem with Druid is that it doesn't have damage mitigation tools such as Aegis or Stab spam or things like Auras. It ONLY has heal/cleanse, which believe it or not, isn't as useful as mass Aegis/Stab/Aura spams. Like if you really evaluated a match, you can see that Aegis/Stab/Aura/even CC spam like a Guard Shield #5, these things are actually allowing players to avoid more damage than the healing they have can heal.

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I guess they want to focus on making Druid support more viable at cost of removing annoying root spam sidenoder. Which is great, we don't need all Ranger specs to be side node and roamers. I hope they will pursuit this goal in following patches, same applies to changes to other "support" specs like Scrouge, Spectre and Firebrand.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/23/2023 at 3:34 AM, Asuran.5469 said:

sup druid is bad

no one plays it

Wrong. Support druid is sleeper OP. Did you even attempt to try the build i linked? The problem with support druid ATM is there isn't a clear build path, meaning many traits are traps. I've tried a lot of support druid builds recently.  The build I linked is exceptional, the others were bad with 0 survivability. 

The main take aways from theory crafting so many support druid builds is that Rune of Sanctuary is required for survivability. You absolutely need all the barrier you get from that rune and you get a kitten load from it. Druids main defenses are its extreme healing and mobility. If you're running around on support druid thinking immobs are all you need to survive, you are going to die. Locking people down with Ancient Seeds is a sidequest of the build, not the main main quest, so to speak.

 

On 6/23/2023 at 1:55 AM, Sahne.6950 said:

Id still rather have a capable Support Tempest tho! The "how you apply it" part of Druid is just not up to the standard that Tempest is setting.  Even when completly being selfish and only sustaining for youself, you heal at almost 100% effectiveness to allies, because it just trickles down to them. Thats what makes Tempest so good in all skillbrackets. All you have to do is survive... and the rest just happens passive.

Did I say Tempest was bad? No I didn't. Tempest is a facerole support that's extremely effective.

Druid is without a doubt much higher skillcap that Tempest. You have to work twice as hard for marginally better output. It's so rewarding to play.

6 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Druid Support is completely dysfunctional in small skirmish team fights like 3v3s - 5v5s.

Hard wrong, support druid is by far the best support skirmisher and its not even close. You deal WAY more damage than any other support and have way more frequent CC via daze and your pet CC. Glyph of Stars is lethal in skirmishes, either offensively for mass cleanse and stability, or defensively as an AoE rez or self rez. Same goes for Search and Rescue, just pop it right before you go down 

On 6/23/2023 at 3:16 AM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

The other part of the problem with Druid is that it doesn't have damage mitigation tools such as Aegis or Stab spam or things like Auras. It ONLY has heal/cleanse, which believe it or not, isn't as useful as mass Aegis/Stab/Aura spams. Like if you really evaluated a match, you can see that Aegis/Stab/Aura/even CC spam like a Guard Shield #5, these things are actually allowing players to avoid more damage than the healing they have can heal.

Wrong. Druid DOES have damage mitigation, its called mobility, stealth, aoe daze, and barrier via Rune of Sanctuary. I just want to reiterate how strong sanc runes are on druid. Druid also had 5% damage mitigation via regen. Try using Fern Hound. You have close to perma regen uptime from all sources combined. You can even pop Search and Rescue for some regen and its getting a phat 48 sec CD after the patch. 

 

Edited by WhoWantsAHug.3186
  • Confused 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/23/2023 at 4:34 AM, Asuran.5469 said:

sup druid is bad

no one plays it

Basically this.  

At least in SoloQ--support is tough there in general because people don't listen, but trying to support uncoordinated moving targets with CA is not fun.  It's better to just switch to immob Druid and 'support' via CC than it is to try to actually heal people.

And I've tried.  Best results I got were a Sw/Torch + Staff hybrid support / condition damage build that ran Glyph of Stars and the usual Sk/Ws/Druid.  Didn't really need the immob with it because staff + sword has insane mobility in sPvP so could run Lingering Light.  

Like I said, it worked somewhat, but only because half the build was condition damage carry through burning and poison, which is about as off meta as it gets for competitive but is effective even to g2-g3 when people aren't expecting it.  

Edited by Gotejjeken.1267
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@WhoWantsAHug.3186 I don't normally do singular reactions to single sentences nowadays, but your post demands it:

1 hour ago, WhoWantsAHug.3186 said:

Wrong. Support druid is sleeper OP. Did you even attempt to try the build i linked?

lol what

No, I don't need to test builds on the class I've mained for 11 years in pvp. I think most players who've mained their class with similar levels of experience would tell you that: "If you are still in testing phases and can't immediately accurately predict how a patch preview will effect your class, you must not know the class as well as you think you do."

Look man, I've been maining Druid ever since HoT first arrived. I've been there done that with Bunker Druids & Support Druids, and I'm telling you, it doesn't work anymore. Sure, myself or any other super old Ranger veteran could take a wonky Druid Support into unranked and make it look like its effective, but in reality it would be terrible and completely useless in the final round of an AT with P2 teams going against P2 teams. Completely useless and dysfunctional for almost every mentionable reason.

These buffs will not change this. Essentially what they did would be like if I took an Orange and decided I wanted to buff the attack power of the Orange so I tape a knife to it. Clearly the problem is that the Orange cannot attack to begin with. This is similar to what I've already explained about how Alacrity & Condi spam on CA Kit will have little to no impact not only in team fights, but even 1v1s. The CA Kit is too dysfunctional at its core mechanics. And like I said, the removal of Ancient Seeds will hurt Druid far far more than those buffs will help it. Druid will be in a worse place after this patch than it is now.

1 hour ago, WhoWantsAHug.3186 said:

The build I linked is exceptional

No, it's not.

In a real game against a team of even just bottom plats/g3s, you'd get 2-shot by everything. Bro that build has ZERO toughness in it and you didn't even bring an invuln. You also ZERO damage output, absolutely no damage on that build.

Main points to be made here:

  1. A Tempest Support would deal twice or more the damage as your Druid.
  2. A Tempest Support likely has 3x or more the survivablity as your Druid, because it has a lot of damage mitigation, for itself and its party.
  3. Damage mitigation actually mitigates more damage than heals can heal. It's really important to have.
  4. Speaking of damage mitigation, you have way too little cleanse. There isn't even close to enough cleanse on that build to handle anything with condi that's designed right. Like if a Condi Willbender were to chase you, you'd be automatically dead. You wouldn't be able to disengage it, you couldn't frequently enough cleanse its constant burn applications, and you'd have no offensive pressure to deter his offense.
  5. That Druid build would contribute nothing, as it has no DPS, it has heals/cleanse that is a gamble as to if it lands or not, it'll die 4x faster than a Tempest when focused in team fights, and it would be a terrible Side Noder that wouldn't hold against anything. It doesn't even have a LB for decapping. It would lose every 1v1 that it entered.

I have no idea from where you're trying to say that build is exceptional, but I'd LOVE to see stream it and post us the footage.

1 hour ago, WhoWantsAHug.3186 said:

The main take aways from theory crafting so many support druid builds is that Rune of Sanctuary is required for survivability.

See, this is where I can tell that you're embellishing your level of experience & time spent testing Druid builds.

A few things that any experienced Druid main would tell you are true:

  1. After the big big nerfs to CA Kit heal output, we all quickly figured out that +heal stat was no longer an option and had become a waste of +stats due to how severe the nerfs were to CA Kit coefficients. Two things became more important for Druid, regardless of if you were running power or condi DPS or even support.
  2. In the case of power variants like this build here which I approve of Druid - Staff/GS Duelist Druid - MetaBattle Guild Wars 2 Builds or even LB variants, having offensive pressure results in being able to heal more than trying to use +heal stats. This is because offensive pressure keeps players off you and keeps them needing to also cycle defense themselves, which alleviates incoming damage you are taking. Simply put, having high damage allows your healing to be meaningful. Trying to run Avatar results in the Druid having no DPS output whatsoever, and then the Power Heralds and Holosmiths as example, can ride you 100% and you have no way to get them off you because you have no DPS. It results in the Avatar Druid rolling around trying to disengage something it can't disengage, blowing through all its CDs 4x faster than it should be, because it has no offensive pressure. It's also impossible to even hold a node while wearing Avatar against those classes because they deal like 6x the DPS output that you can heal with Avatar. You have to wear Berserker on Power Druid variants to maintain offensive presure, regardless of if you are Side Node or trying to be a Support. That's just how it works. There is no way around it, and the patch won't change this.
  3. In the case of condi variants like my build here (3) GW2 PvP Rabid Burst Druid Guide - Twitch they are slower than power variants, have no GS for evade & block, and have no LB to knock players back, so they have to take significantly more damage than power variants. Due to the massive nerfs to CA Kit heal output, we all quickly figured out that stacked toughness was mitigating much more damage than +heal stat was healing. Dolyak or Undead isn't enough on Sage. You have to use Rabid Amulet. If you don't use Rabid Amulet, something like a Tool Holo will run you over with damage & CCs almost immediately. The small boosts you get to heal from +500 heal stat is negligent compared to +900 or more toughness. Not only is the toughness mitigating much much more damage than the +500 heal is capable of healing, but that toughness is just flat out mandatory.

I have no idea from where you're drawing this Sanctuary Rune stuff, but I highly suggest you drop the Sanctuary Rune and take the advice listed above, even when running support. The most important thing about running a support is understanding that you can't support anything if you're dead. It doesn't matter if you have +2000 heal stat, if something like a Deadeye can pop you into downstate with a 2-shot combo that is too fast to react to with slow channeled heal skills, the support build has no value.

3 hours ago, WhoWantsAHug.3186 said:

Druid is without a doubt much higher skillcap that Tempest. You have to work twice as hard for marginally better output. It's so rewarding to play.

I honestly can't tell what you're doing here. Not sure if you're being serious or trying to inject some kind of propaganda. Either way, some of these statements you're making are incredible examples of not misinformation, but disinformation.

3 hours ago, WhoWantsAHug.3186 said:

Hard wrong, support druid is by far the best support skirmisher and its not even close. You deal WAY more damage than any other support and have way more frequent CC via daze and your pet CC.

I mean, look at this. Druid Support is definitely not better than a Tempest or Guard in skirmish or zerg. It's nowhere near the level of value that Tempests & Guards bring. And a Druid Support definitely does not have better CC output than a Tempest spamming Shock Aura my dude, come on now. Also, that build you linked has ZERO damage output, none.

You are the only person I've ever heard who claims this kind of nonsense, which is what makes me have to question if you're being serious or not.

3 hours ago, WhoWantsAHug.3186 said:

Wrong. Druid DOES have damage mitigation, its called mobility, stealth, aoe daze, and barrier via Rune of Sanctuary. I just want to reiterate how strong sanc runes are on druid. Druid also had 5% damage mitigation via regen. Try using Fern Hound. You have close to perma regen uptime from all sources combined. You can even pop Search and Rescue for some regen and its getting a phat 48 sec CD after the patch.

Just.... no.

Clearly by damage mitigation, we are referring to effects like party auras & aegis & mass group stability. These kinds of effects are an absolute requirement for a party support to actually be viable as a party support as they mitigate more damage than heals & cleanses can heal & cleanse.

2 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

At least in SoloQ--support is tough there in general because people don't listen, but trying to support uncoordinated moving targets with CA is not fun.  It's better to just switch to immob Druid and 'support' via CC than it is to try to actually heal people.

^ Exactly

The only real support Druid has that is reliable support, is the Druidic Clarity & Celestial Shadow, and of course immob assistance in securing kills or helping people peel. DC in conjunction with pop CA Kit #3 on #2 for a 6 party cleanse and a small heal, then leave CA Kit so CS triggers and briefly stealths/super speeds everyone for a detarget to help dudes peel or stop stomps. That's about all it has for practical reliable support. From there out, you just run DPS. Those are the builds that are actually functional.

  • Thanks 2
  • Confused 3
  • Sad 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/25/2023 at 4:31 PM, Morwath.9817 said:

Last time I played support Druid it was 10 games easy plat.

Edit: Confused?

I'm not the confused reaction but am actually a little confused at that link.  There are 10 games played, and you have 10 placement matches each season...

EDIT: To clarify, there is no proof there you stayed anywhere near plat on support Druid.  Or that you actually played support Druid...

Yeah, this might be the first time on the forums I agree with that confused reaction's intended purpose of being confused and not as a disagreement / trolling mechanism.

Edited by Gotejjeken.1267
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/25/2023 at 9:59 PM, WhoWantsAHug.3186 said:

Wrong. Support druid is sleeper OP. Did you even attempt to try the build i linked? The problem with support druid ATM is there isn't a clear build path, meaning many traits are traps. I've tried a lot of support druid builds recently.  The build I linked is exceptional, the others were bad with 0 survivability. 

The main take aways from theory crafting so many support druid builds is that Rune of Sanctuary is required for survivability. You absolutely need all the barrier you get from that rune and you get a kitten load from it. Druids main defenses are its extreme healing and mobility. If you're running around on support druid thinking immobs are all you need to survive, you are going to die. Locking people down with Ancient Seeds is a sidequest of the build, not the main main quest, so to speak.

 

Did I say Tempest was bad? No I didn't. Tempest is a facerole support that's extremely effective.

Druid is without a doubt much higher skillcap that Tempest. You have to work twice as hard for marginally better output. It's so rewarding to play.

Hard wrong, support druid is by far the best support skirmisher and its not even close. You deal WAY more damage than any other support and have way more frequent CC via daze and your pet CC. Glyph of Stars is lethal in skirmishes, either offensively for mass cleanse and stability, or defensively as an AoE rez or self rez. Same goes for Search and Rescue, just pop it right before you go down 

Wrong. Druid DOES have damage mitigation, its called mobility, stealth, aoe daze, and barrier via Rune of Sanctuary. I just want to reiterate how strong sanc runes are on druid. Druid also had 5% damage mitigation via regen. Try using Fern Hound. You have close to perma regen uptime from all sources combined. You can even pop Search and Rescue for some regen and its getting a phat 48 sec CD after the patch. 

 

Druid is bad because it doesn't one shot while also being immortal, thus it's "unplayable" category.
Still wonder why they haven't made it like Necromancer shroud which skills would be dependant on pet categories, but hey, they've made soulbeast...

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

I'm not the confused reaction but am actually a little confused at that link.  There are 10 games played, and you have 10 placement matches each season...

EDIT: To clarify, there is no proof there you stayed anywhere near plat on support Druid.  Or that you actually played support Druid...

Yeah, this might be the first time on the forums I agree with that confused reaction's intended purpose of being confused and not as a disagreement / trolling mechanism.

The only way I could prove it, would be recording gameplay. So it's up to you to trust me or not. Screenshot itself, is proof it's anyhow viable, even if with a bit of luck. Support Druid is good enough to be played at least in G3. It's not Guardian/Tempest style, it's more roaming support with lots of mobility (GS+Staff leaps), dazes, stealth and some damage. On the other hand I don't think people should stick to one spec while playing ranked. They should adapt to their own team and enemy compositions, picking e-spec based on that, if they ain't multi-classing they should be at least multi-e-specing. Ranked is pretty chaotic, no team and match is the same and having ability to play more supportive spec while playing Ranger is huge plus.

With incoming changes support Druid should be only stronger.

About screenshot: I barely play ranked, usualy until I reach plat and thats it no matter if its 10, 15 or 50 games just to prove myself I can get there 😎. I don't really care where I will be at the end of season as thats irrevelant to me. I find ranked environment way too toxic, afking pipsboys and drama queens suck too much joy and energy out of me to keep playing it regulary as I prefer to stay sane especially with Conquest as the only ranked on daily basis and duoQ being allowed, I don't see a single reason to tryhard as soloQ player.

  • Haha 1
  • Confused 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Gonna be a big surprise for you today when you realize how detrimental the removal of Ancient Seeds will be.

I won't be surprised as I haven't used it in more than half of my games. I'd take it only if I had Guardian or Tempest already on my team.

Edit: And for those games I'd pick Ancient Seed, removing it is a buff, because its a reason to play Untamed in those matches instead 😶.

Edited by Morwath.9817
  • Confused 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/25/2023 at 6:19 PM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@WhoWantsAHug.3186 I don't normally do singular reactions to single sentences nowadays, but your post demands it:

lol what

No, I don't need to test builds on the class I've mained for 11 years in pvp. I think most players who've mained their class with similar levels of experience would tell you that: "If you are still in testing phases and can't immediately accurately predict how a patch preview will effect your class, you must not know the class as well as you think you do."

Look man, I've been maining Druid ever since HoT first arrived. I've been there done that with Bunker Druids & Support Druids, and I'm telling you, it doesn't work anymore. Sure, myself or any other super old Ranger veteran could take a wonky Druid Support into unranked and make it look like its effective, but in reality it would be terrible and completely useless in the final round of an AT with P2 teams going against P2 teams. Completely useless and dysfunctional for almost every mentionable reason.

These buffs will not change this. Essentially what they did would be like if I took an Orange and decided I wanted to buff the attack power of the Orange so I tape a knife to it. Clearly the problem is that the Orange cannot attack to begin with. This is similar to what I've already explained about how Alacrity & Condi spam on CA Kit will have little to no impact not only in team fights, but even 1v1s. The CA Kit is too dysfunctional at its core mechanics. And like I said, the removal of Ancient Seeds will hurt Druid far far more than those buffs will help it. Druid will be in a worse place after this patch than it is now.

No, it's not.

In a real game against a team of even just bottom plats/g3s, you'd get 2-shot by everything. Bro that build has ZERO toughness in it and you didn't even bring an invuln. You also ZERO damage output, absolutely no damage on that build.

Main points to be made here:

  1. A Tempest Support would deal twice or more the damage as your Druid.
  2. A Tempest Support likely has 3x or more the survivablity as your Druid, because it has a lot of damage mitigation, for itself and its party.
  3. Damage mitigation actually mitigates more damage than heals can heal. It's really important to have.
  4. Speaking of damage mitigation, you have way too little cleanse. There isn't even close to enough cleanse on that build to handle anything with condi that's designed right. Like if a Condi Willbender were to chase you, you'd be automatically dead. You wouldn't be able to disengage it, you couldn't frequently enough cleanse its constant burn applications, and you'd have no offensive pressure to deter his offense.
  5. That Druid build would contribute nothing, as it has no DPS, it has heals/cleanse that is a gamble as to if it lands or not, it'll die 4x faster than a Tempest when focused in team fights, and it would be a terrible Side Noder that wouldn't hold against anything. It doesn't even have a LB for decapping. It would lose every 1v1 that it entered.

I have no idea from where you're trying to say that build is exceptional, but I'd LOVE to see stream it and post us the footage.

See, this is where I can tell that you're embellishing your level of experience & time spent testing Druid builds.

A few things that any experienced Druid main would tell you are true:

  1. After the big big nerfs to CA Kit heal output, we all quickly figured out that +heal stat was no longer an option and had become a waste of +stats due to how severe the nerfs were to CA Kit coefficients. Two things became more important for Druid, regardless of if you were running power or condi DPS or even support.
  2. In the case of power variants like this build here which I approve of Druid - Staff/GS Duelist Druid - MetaBattle Guild Wars 2 Builds or even LB variants, having offensive pressure results in being able to heal more than trying to use +heal stats. This is because offensive pressure keeps players off you and keeps them needing to also cycle defense themselves, which alleviates incoming damage you are taking. Simply put, having high damage allows your healing to be meaningful. Trying to run Avatar results in the Druid having no DPS output whatsoever, and then the Power Heralds and Holosmiths as example, can ride you 100% and you have no way to get them off you because you have no DPS. It results in the Avatar Druid rolling around trying to disengage something it can't disengage, blowing through all its CDs 4x faster than it should be, because it has no offensive pressure. It's also impossible to even hold a node while wearing Avatar against those classes because they deal like 6x the DPS output that you can heal with Avatar. You have to wear Berserker on Power Druid variants to maintain offensive presure, regardless of if you are Side Node or trying to be a Support. That's just how it works. There is no way around it, and the patch won't change this.
  3. In the case of condi variants like my build here (3) GW2 PvP Rabid Burst Druid Guide - Twitch they are slower than power variants, have no GS for evade & block, and have no LB to knock players back, so they have to take significantly more damage than power variants. Due to the massive nerfs to CA Kit heal output, we all quickly figured out that stacked toughness was mitigating much more damage than +heal stat was healing. Dolyak or Undead isn't enough on Sage. You have to use Rabid Amulet. If you don't use Rabid Amulet, something like a Tool Holo will run you over with damage & CCs almost immediately. The small boosts you get to heal from +500 heal stat is negligent compared to +900 or more toughness. Not only is the toughness mitigating much much more damage than the +500 heal is capable of healing, but that toughness is just flat out mandatory.

I have no idea from where you're drawing this Sanctuary Rune stuff, but I highly suggest you drop the Sanctuary Rune and take the advice listed above, even when running support. The most important thing about running a support is understanding that you can't support anything if you're dead. It doesn't matter if you have +2000 heal stat, if something like a Deadeye can pop you into downstate with a 2-shot combo that is too fast to react to with slow channeled heal skills, the support build has no value.

I honestly can't tell what you're doing here. Not sure if you're being serious or trying to inject some kind of propaganda. Either way, some of these statements you're making are incredible examples of not misinformation, but disinformation.

I mean, look at this. Druid Support is definitely not better than a Tempest or Guard in skirmish or zerg. It's nowhere near the level of value that Tempests & Guards bring. And a Druid Support definitely does not have better CC output than a Tempest spamming Shock Aura my dude, come on now. Also, that build you linked has ZERO damage output, none.

You are the only person I've ever heard who claims this kind of nonsense, which is what makes me have to question if you're being serious or not.

Just.... no.

Clearly by damage mitigation, we are referring to effects like party auras & aegis & mass group stability. These kinds of effects are an absolute requirement for a party support to actually be viable as a party support as they mitigate more damage than heals & cleanses can heal & cleanse.

^ Exactly

The only real support Druid has that is reliable support, is the Druidic Clarity & Celestial Shadow, and of course immob assistance in securing kills or helping people peel. DC in conjunction with pop CA Kit #3 on #2 for a 6 party cleanse and a small heal, then leave CA Kit so CS triggers and briefly stealths/super speeds everyone for a detarget to help dudes peel or stop stomps. That's about all it has for practical reliable support. From there out, you just run DPS. Those are the builds that are actually functional.

I hate to say I told you so(actually not). Support druid is amazing now. Mainhand sword + warhorn = 3 combo finishers for smokescale(insane). 

"

On 6/25/2023 at 6:19 PM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

The only real support Druid has that is reliable support, is the Druidic Clarity & Celestial Shadow, and of course immob assistance in securing kills or helping people peel. DC in conjunction with pop CA Kit #3 on #2 for a 6 party cleanse and a small heal, then leave CA Kit so CS triggers and briefly stealths/super speeds everyone for a detarget to help dudes peel or stop stomps. 

Yea and now you can pop DC and CS almost twice as often! I like how you stated numerous times that CA skills were too hard to land, but in this statement you're saying to use them for cleanse. So can you land them or can you not? Use stronger arguments BTW and don't contradict yourself. LOL didn't you make an entire forum post exclusively about not being able to hit CA skills?

  • Confused 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, WhoWantsAHug.3186 said:

I hate to say I told you so(actually not). Support druid is amazing now. Mainhand sword + warhorn = 3 combo finishers for smokescale(insane).

Bruh, you'd think anything was amazing if you posted that link to that bad build and told us "it was excellent".

Support Druid is in worse shape than it was before this patch. We're not going to see any viable play from Support Druid.

You can play and believe whatever you want, enjoy.

23 minutes ago, WhoWantsAHug.3186 said:

Yea and now you can pop DC and CS almost twice as often!

No

You're posting a load of bologna. Even when you run DPS and only pop #3 on a #2 and immediately leave CA Kit to actually preserve CA energy for the fastest reuse of DC & CS possible, it still takes nearly 20s for the CA energy to build back up, and maybe 15s if you pop a heal utility and have some regen in the background.

The idea behind "reducing CA Kit CD for healing allies" is entirely fundamentally flawed from the ground up because to do that, you would need to stay and sit in CA Kit, which is just a bad idea for every reason, including bottoming out your CA energy. So it wouldn't matter if you reduced the CA Kit down to a 10s CD because now you have wait like 20s for your CA energy to refill before you can use it again lol.

Upon this, understand the simple math behind this concept:

  1. When you dip in and out of CA Kit quickly, staying in only maybe 1s to cast #3 and #2 and then leave, the CA energy will be full again when the 20s CD is up. You are able to use DC & CS roughly about every 21 seconds this way.
  2. When you go into CA Kit and stand there in it and spam heals for 10s attempting to lower the CD of CA Kit, you are adding +10s in between your intervals of use of DC & CS because the CD for CA Kit doesn't begin UNTIL YOU LEAVE THE CA KIT. Then when you leave the CA Kit, your CA energy is bottomed out from trying to support heal. Even if you bring it down to a 10s CD from heals AFTER you sat in it for 10s, if you could somehow magically fill the CA energy to the top immediately, you would still only be benefitting DC & CS once per about 21s. But realistically, you cannot immediately refill the CA energy, and you will be waiting to fill that bar for at least 15s to 20s for use, regardless of the CA Kit CD reduction. Realistically, you are using DC & CS once per 30s to 35s when you are trying to play support. This is much less frequent than a DPS Druid and makes you much more prone to being singled out and targeted.

Those new traits are a flop design, and these are all the kinds of reasons why Support Druid is just bad in pvp. What it needed, was direct improvements to its mechanics, not random small condi buffs to CA Kit which has several reasons why (A) it doesn't hit anything, and (B) you can't even afford to stay in long enough to use those heals or condis.

Just INB4 posting more disinformation man.

I know you want to be a believer, but some truths you've got to accept.

Edited by Trevor Boyer.6524
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's one of the posts from the Ranger subforum, other people are already noticing exactly what I said would happen:

This was by @Strider.7849

"I tested out roaming on my druid most of the morning.. the loss of ancient seeds means it's very hard to defend ourselves. This is forcing a celestial druid style of play and the power/condi-heal version can't benefit at all from the changes. I personally run condi-heal, previously only running about 12.60% condition duration in order to keep seeds effective, with the new setup my gear is obsolete. The conditions don't last long enough in CA to have much value except for the chill which is easily interrupted. Can't kite enemies anymore."

And the only thing people did in this thread, was cick laugh & confused emojis to my warning.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...