Signet Necro Dead Then?

[Josiah.2967]

As someone with a close friend with a disability. This is infuriating. He used signet build to play the game and be somewhat effective. Sure it was a li build, but some people truly need them. It wasn't even meta.  Just why?

[LuRkEr.9462]

I didn't even notice this change in the patch notes until Tuesday night I did my normal solo seitung maze run on condi cele reaper and was confused why my sustain sucked and I couldn't stay in shroud lol

It really was a nerf to OW champ/legendary solo builds for sure.

[Artemis.8034]

They ruined scourge, cant even pylon now

[Nimon.7840]

Yes, lots of people were playing open world Perma shroud signet builds. But it seems like that's not what anet wants reaper to be.

And you can still achieve very high shroud uptime if you want to.

You just have to put some brain into it For example with something like this:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PSgAEZlVwOYOMOWJOyWuNdA-zRRYiRFlG0cIreHkmRQ4CISKYaAqA-e

Should have high might, fury, quickness uptime. And pretty good life force Generation even in shroud because if high health. And you are very tanky due to high health, and good uptime on "infusing terror" - rs3

 

[Apokriphos.7042]

The problem is simple - build diversity is based on variety, and there isn't much meta variety in Necromancer anymore. Perhaps this was a balance choice to keep it easier to balance skills. It feels very lazy to me.

 

Anet sold GW2 based on the idea of play how you want, and initially, that was a feasible approach to every mode in this game. Slowly, Anet has nerfed or failed to QoL maintain most traits, skills and whole prestige classes. The large amount of 'choice' leading to a non optimal state creates multiple 'noob pitfalls' as an 'llusion of choice'.

 

Functionality this approach over years has led to GW2 becoming a niche, non-friendly to new player game in the end-game aspects of it, antithetical to achieving growth through new players from Steam, old players who liked their old non meta builds, and casual players who wanted to try something different but mostly functional. Oddly, the initial promotion of SoTo was "endless build variety". I don't see it, and Anet won't be getting my money for it until that changes.

Edited July 3, 2023 by Apokriphos.7042

[Birdie.3869]

16 hours ago, Nimon.7840 said:

Yes, lots of people were playing open world Perma shroud signet builds. But it seems like that's not what anet wants reaper to be.

And you can still achieve very high shroud uptime if you want to.

You just have to put some brain into it For example with something like this:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PSgAEZlVwOYOMOWJOyWuNdA-zRRYiRFlG0cIreHkmRQ4CISKYaAqA-e

Should have high might, fury, quickness uptime. And pretty good life force Generation even in shroud because if high health. And you are very tanky due to high health, and good uptime on "infusing terror" - rs3

 

While I do agree there is still ways to play necro, I complain due to the fact that a core aspect of necro in general was outright deleted with this update. The excuses they made to justify it being that the previous way was not fun, yet this is way worse.

Just because there IS other options, doesn't mean forcing a shroud build into only being able to play reaper is a good way to go. There's 3 other specs, core suffers a lot from this change, as does harb, both classes that don't have enough if any fear output in shroud. I don't even need to talk about scourge atm.

That's why these changes need to be reverted. Signets should still apply effects in shroud. Idc about  the cooldown reductions, but I want my extra lifeforce generation, extra power and vamp signet to be usable at all. Some reapers want the extra move speed in shroud in pvp/wvw I imagine too, along with it's heal. It also got completely destroyed in those game modes.

Fear build is a fine build and it worked better with signets and fine without, but don't think that makes it ok they killed signet necro. There's multiple ways to play, and forcing those of us out who want to play with signets is not a good move on anets part.

[Nimon.7840]

7 hours ago, Birdie.3869 said:

While I do agree there is still ways to play necro, I complain due to the fact that a core aspect of necro in general was outright deleted with this update. The excuses they made to justify it being that the previous way was not fun, yet this is way worse.

Just because there IS other options, doesn't mean forcing a shroud build into only being able to play reaper is a good way to go. There's 3 other specs, core suffers a lot from this change, as does harb, both classes that don't have enough if any fear output in shroud. I don't even need to talk about scourge atm.

That's why these changes need to be reverted. Signets should still apply effects in shroud. Idc about  the cooldown reductions, but I want my extra lifeforce generation, extra power and vamp signet to be usable at all. Some reapers want the extra move speed in shroud in pvp/wvw I imagine too, along with it's heal. It also got completely destroyed in those game modes.

Fear build is a fine build and it worked better with signets and fine without, but don't think that makes it ok they killed signet necro. There's multiple ways to play, and forcing those of us out who want to play with signets is not a good move on anets part.

They didn't force you out. You can still play signets if you want to.

Sorry but skills and traits in MMOs are subject to change at any time. Either because they are bad design wise, or pose a problem with the average power level.

If you can't bear with it, play some Singleplayer rpg. There it's much less likely, that your build gets changed. 

Don't get me wrong. I do think there should be some low intensity builds for players that aren't able to play high effort build. For example players that have some kind of physical restriction.

But I don't think that most people complaining here have some kind of restriction.

I don't get it why people play the game, but don't want to play it at the same time. If you are having fun playing the game, engage with it's features, play it actively.

Imo it's not actively playing the game, if you basically sit in shroud forever and just spam autoattack.

It's the same with minions. they incentivise a type of gameplay, that is not engaging with the game at all. I don't want to say that every minion player doesn't engage with the game. But just go look at several afk farm spots and how many people are afking on Necro with their minions.

[Dadnir.5038]

To be fair, the most likely reason Signet of suffering was changed (beyond the global removal of CD reduction perks) is that the necromancer playerbase used it in order to exploit a gameplay that wasn't intended and that the devs didn't truly support. From what I understand of the design philosophy of the necromancer, the intended way to play it is to balance the time you spend in shroud and SoF broke this intended gameplay.

That said, I think that the trait granting passive effect of the signets while in shroud was a great thing and that "fixing" the seemingly unwanted passive LF sustain from SoU could have been done by simply changing SoU passive effect.

 

[TashaFoxx.7862]

5 hours ago, Nimon.7840 said:

They didn't force you out. You can still play signets if you want to.

Sorry but skills and traits in MMOs are subject to change at any time. Either because they are bad design wise, or pose a problem with the average power level.

If you can't bear with it, play some Singleplayer rpg. There it's much less likely, that your build gets changed. 

Don't get me wrong. I do think there should be some low intensity builds for players that aren't able to play high effort build. For example players that have some kind of physical restriction.

But I don't think that most people complaining here have some kind of restriction.

I don't get it why people play the game, but don't want to play it at the same time. If you are having fun playing the game, engage with it's features, play it actively.

Imo it's not actively playing the game, if you basically sit in shroud forever and just spam autoattack.

It's the same with minions. they incentivise a type of gameplay, that is not engaging with the game at all. I don't want to say that every minion player doesn't engage with the game. But just go look at several afk farm spots and how many people are afking on Necro with their minions.

Literally nothing you said proves it was a change for the better.

[Shadowmoon.7986]

2 hours ago, GetFoxxed.9478 said:

Literally nothing you said proves it was a change for the better.

Lets look at the other two master tier traits. SoS was never going to out compete awaken the pain for pure power builds, and it makes hybrid builds worse. Lesser shivers of dread is a passive proc that anet does not want to encourage more. Clearly they want SoS to be the pick for hybrid builds, because honestly all the signets are built for hybrid builds or neutral builds. This now aligns with spiteful spirit on the last line. 

Clearly they want to promote people to actually use the actives of these signets, instead of camping on their passives indefinately. SoS promoted that play style. 

[Obtena.7952]

18 minutes ago, Shadowmoon.7986 said:

Lets look at the other two master tier traits. SoS was never going to out compete awaken the pain for pure power builds, and it makes hybrid builds worse. Lesser shivers of dread is a passive proc that anet does not want to encourage more. Clearly they want SoS to be the pick for hybrid builds, because honestly all the signets are built for hybrid builds or neutral builds. This now aligns with spiteful spirit on the last line. 

Clearly they want to promote people to actually use the actives of these signets, instead of camping on their passives indefinately. SoS promoted that play style. 

That's just not true because SoS was all about actively using signets (to benefit from the accelerated recharge) and entering shroud (to benefit from the trait at all). There is absolutely nothing passive about that style of gameplay. The people who are camping signets for the passive effects are still going to do so because nothing about the signets themselves have changed. 

Edited July 4, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Shadowmoon.7986]

11 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That's just not true because SoS was all about actively using signets (to benefit from the accelerated recharge) and entering shroud (to benefit from the trait at all). There is absolutely nothing passive about that style of gameplay. The people who are camping signets for the passive effects are still going to do so because nothing about the signets themselves have changed. 

Expect the build promoted did not use the actives. Signet of smite, the condi active?

Signet of undeath, the rez active that loses half your health?

Signet of vamp, the life stealth active?

Signet of locust,  the heal active? 

The build was a power build that none of the actives benefited from.  That has been promoted as a LI build. That people having been pearl clutching about "you won't you think of the disabled people". Pretending this is not about a trait that promoted this behavior is pretty disengenious. But here i am breaking my rule about engaging with someone who argues in bad faith.

[Obtena.7952]

30 minutes ago, Shadowmoon.7986 said:

Expect the build promoted did not use the actives.

OK, but that doesn't mean SoS change cleanses whatever LI build plague you think exists. LI build players just take a different trait and STILL benefit from the passive nature of Signets they use in the builds. Like, somehow you have convinced yourself this change will discourage people from playing LI builds on necro. I guess that's just wishful thinking because the only thing we are going to see happen is that the ONE LI build you are thinking of is less effective. I think in the grand scheme of things, LI players that use SoS aren't going to be so quick to abandon their signets or their playstyle as eagerly as you hope they will. If anything, attacks on LI builds actually hurts players that insist on high performance from their team mates because the pool of people they are willing to play with goes down. 

But sure, keep wishing the endgame becomes accessible to only the top 1%ers ... to their own detriment of course. 

Edited July 4, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[lovemghool.7613]

Signet Necro had to die in a cold fire so that Signet Elementalist could emerge.

oh and cuz it is cool to randomly nerf Necromancers here and there for no reason. Your balance dev is an ele main after all.

[Acanthus.8120]

7 hours ago, Shadowmoon.7986 said:

Expect the build promoted did not use the actives. Signet of smite, the condi active?

Signet of undeath, the rez active that loses half your health?

Signet of vamp, the life stealth active?

Signet of locust,  the heal active? 

The build was a power build that none of the actives benefited from.  That has been promoted as a LI build. That people having been pearl clutching about "you won't you think of the disabled people". Pretending this is not about a trait that promoted this behavior is pretty disengenious. But here i am breaking my rule about engaging with someone who argues in bad faith.

Regarding pre-nerf Signet of Vampirism and Signet of Undeath:

On 3/5/2023 at 12:00 PM, Acanthus.8120 said:

If you trait Augury of Death and have "Your Soul Is Mine", "You Are All Weaklings", "Suffer", and "Chilled to the Bone" and are hitting a single target (because, realistically, fighting trash mobs isn't a realistic test of viability and the test of viability tends to be against single, very tanky, hard-hitting targets), your extra healing is roughly 25.347 healing per second when used off cd with 0 healing power. When considering the active heal of "Your Soul Is Mine", that goes up to 310.035 healing per second. Signet of Vampirism heals 195 a second passively. When in shroud, it cools down in 13.64 seconds. With the passive AND active's life leech, as well as the active's heal used off cooldown, you would have 728.138 healing per second. Obviously, these numbers are theoretical maximums and you would never reach either of these numbers. The point is merely to show how signet of Vampirism, by itself, is better than all Augury of Death shouts combined. When you take Signet of Undeath into account, the disparity is even bigger.

With the old Signets of Suffering, as long as your build had vitality (via Marauder's + Dragon's Weapons and Rings to reach 75%), you could afford to use Signet of Undeath's active without danger as long as you had 75% hp or more or if Signet of Vampirism was up and your shroud cd was charged. The reason you can use it with vitality is because the cost is based on your base vitality, so the cost did not scale with your hp.

Signet of Spite's active is garbage for power builds while the passive was intended for it, but you still burned it before every shroud because low extra damage is still extra damage and you would still get the passives once you were in shroud. So realistically, yes, you would use signet actives for these 3. Implying that you would never use them with the old build is disingenuous yourself. You wouldn't use them in PvE now if you care about the passives.

Edit:

23 hours ago, Shadowmoon.7986 said:

I am glad it is gone. LI is a plague that an ex employee promoted. The trait at least has a use now.

Also, you're obviously biased.

Edited July 5, 2023 by Acanthus.8120

[Sjentra.3409]

This is the build (more or less) that I was running in open world; which generated 25 stacks of might; 100% crit after a short ramp up; 100% quickness; and could actually live in shroud while still taking damage. Our dmg is still pretty subpar outside shroud even with all the staff buffs for strike dmg (god forbid you get stuck in staff using aa while waiting for shroud to come up).

Lord Hizen's Reaper build 

[eutha six.5647]

On 7/3/2023 at 2:56 AM, Nimon.7840 said:

Yes, lots of people were playing open world Perma shroud signet builds. But it seems like that's not what anet wants reaper to be.

ya, that was me-but it was that or a full minion build with vamp runes--but I use my necro for story and solo stuff like dailies and exploring-near perma shroud was nice for the burst but was not perfect and strictly a solo selfish build

[Birdie.3869]

Guess I'll bump this, since the patch made no changes whatsoever to necro signets.

Still looking for them to be usable in pve, Anet, CMC, whoever. Where's the buff for vampirism signet? Where's the buff for plague signet or power signet? You guys can't just lower cooldowns a tiny bit and think all is well. Even traited they're all outclassed by a single well (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Well_of_Corruption) minus maybe locus signet. I'll keep bumping this up every patch until something is done.

[BobbyT.7192]

Seeing this change and all of the other changes I've seen lately makes me think Anet has stop trying.

It's not like Nerco's are starved for choice for boon removal. Hell you have Signet of Locust just for starters, this just seem lazy.

Was it really that broken or underused that it had to be changed?

 

 

Edited July 19, 2023 by BobbyT.7192

[sdaugherty.1984]

On 7/3/2023 at 11:23 AM, Apokriphos.7042 said:

Anet sold GW2 based on the idea of play how you want,

Yes!  And I soooo would like it if the game was designed to make that possible. It seems to be getting further and further away from that idea. 

[cubed.2853]

So I switched to my core necro yesterday and thought I wasn't seeing right. This is yet another perfect example of the balance team's absolute incompetence.

Balance doesn't mean constantly reinventing the wheel, or even nerfing a skill back to it's origin. How can you be so incompetent and constantly change everything completely? Balance is when you make only minor adjustments.

Also everything class got stronger since release, but hey, we can just "reset" the trait to the origin of the game....!? Has no one actually noticed that the trait is not completely useless in the pve? What a sh**show.... Is someone specific still drinking enough water over there?

Edited August 10, 2023 by cubed.2853

[SleepyBat.9034]

I really don't understand why anet thought this change was needed in the first place. Maybe they thought that because they were making other cdr traits baseline? Last I checked no one had issues with the cds of signets.

[Birdie.3869]

So,@Cal Cohen.2358 @Rubi Bayer.8493, for when you guys release the scourge nerf that we all know is going to happen could you throw in the return of signets of suffering or some buffs to necro signets with it?
Feel free to check out my other comments here as for why since they're still relevant as zero changes have been made so far.
And while I have your attention, if I do:
Engi Turrets need love too.
Elementalist Summons (Lesser) as well.

Thanks.

[Methuselah.4376]

57 minutes ago, Birdie.3869 said:

So,@Cal Cohen.2358 @Rubi Bayer.8493, for when you guys release the scourge nerf that we all know is going to happen could you throw in the return of signets of suffering or some buffs to necro signets with it?
Feel free to check out my other comments here as for why since they're still relevant as zero changes have been made so far.
And while I have your attention, if I do:
Engi Turrets need love too.
Elementalist Summons (Lesser) as well.

Thanks.

I don't think the developers are there for people's shopping lists, otherwise they never get anything done. 

[Birdie.3869]

14 minutes ago, Methuselah.4376 said:

I don't think the developers are there for people's shopping lists, otherwise they never get anything done. 

Good thing it's not a shopping list then. Just a simple request or two.
If they don't want to be reminded of things that need balancing, then they can lock this thread and I'll go do other things than pop by each patch to remind them once again.