Weaponmaster Training Beta Feedback: Revenant

[Kanok.3027]

My only feedback is for Shield. Put the cleanse on a core trait in Salvation somewhere since that would work best for it and allow Rev to move while using Shield 5 so they have a way of escaping trouble or helping their groups by staying alive in competitive modes so they can heal when they get bombed.

Everything else was fine. My WvW guild still uses hammer for their comps and it seems to work fine, but it's still clunky. If it worked more like Guardian/Warrior Hammer, where it's a melee weapon or at least felt less clunky as a ranged weapon, it would be better, but that's more of a core Rev issue and not really related to this beta.

[Esufer.8762]

Also 100% would like to add my voice to the pile of "Hammer needs looking at" - having access to Shortbow on non-renegade power builds has just highlighted how inadequate Hammer is in the majority of use cases, with its only real standout being the piercing it has on the auto attack.

Hopefully there's time to rework this weapon that seems to have a fallen behind the time vs other options.

(also i made a legendary hammer years ago and would like to use it sometime thank you)

[Shagie.7612]

shortbow vindi feels pretty crazy, especially if cata and tempest see nerfs in the future

i basically only play renegade currently because i like the weapon kit, but this frees up my choice a lot which is kinda cool, but also feels a bit weird cause part of what keeps the weapon in check is renegade being a crappy traitline. i'm not sure power cares that much about the lack of pierce, at least in spvp, and vindi traits + the legend are waaaay better than renegade's.

also it being a better power weapon than hammer in most respects is kinda rough (poor shao lol), maybe it's time to change shortbow to lean more heavily towards its condi application so there's a distinct choice for what damage type you want in your ranged weapon. 

[Nicyu.5136]

Shortbow : It felt really good to have it on every spec -> hammer is  unusable in PVE and find value only in Zerg in wvw
Shield :  Stunlock of 5 still make this weapon trash, and even if you want to go for a support herald in PVE you can't anymore cause you have to deplete 6 upkeep energy to give quickness + it cost you 40% of your energy bar to give ONLY TO YOURSELF unblockable? staff still the only viable support option. Give something else for group utility to shield, like guardian have without energy restriction and 5s more cd (proj protection+shield+stun). I don't want a copy of what guardian have but right now it feels useless and the shield is used only on HandKite for 2 boss raid in the entire game aka 0.01% of content. Give us something please so we can consider taking shield maybe a mist pull or some boon.

Edit: i mean... i get it that rev is not designed for group support but this is a bit ashaming when you directly compare skills even for a personnal use guardian one obliterate the rev shield. Left -> Guardian | Right -> Rev. And i don't talk about aegis.

spell link -> https://ibb.co/XyjFwmW

Scepter : Talking about shield remind me we lack mainhand option for support rev in general (we have none in fact) and i hope scepter will pack at least 1 utility spell

Sword : bread and butter of rev like it always does

GS: Cool replacement to staff for aggressive purpose. The weapon is very costy in energy so it's doesn't fit in every build

 

Edited June 30, 2023 by Nicyu.5136

[phokus.8934]

Just echoing what others are saying...

Shield and hammer need complete reworks.  They're just not worth taking due to their aged design in how this game is played and is evolving.

[Shadow Legend.1657]

As a longtime rev main I'm seeing a lot of negative feedback about rev here and I feel inclined to share my thoughts because I bloody love revenant and these new changes.

I love the recent changes to herald where I dont need to spam glint utilities off cooldown to apply quickness or even use glint stance at all. I love being able to use kinda any legend I need to or want to now and still be able to provide quickness.

I love being able to use shortbow on Herald to make a condition quickness build. I love the idea of using greatsword on Herald just because I love greatswords in general and the vindicator greatsword skills are so much fun to use.

Even though I don't really care much for scepters I'm keen to give them a try after the new expac and roleplay as a wizard weilding a magical wand. It feels like I can just try whatever weird weapon/legend/elitespec combos I want now and I love it and love the flexibility.

The one negative I can think of right now is I wish we had a different 1200 range weapon. For some reason I never really liked the hammer, it just feels kinda silly using it as a long-ranged weapon and never really found it very fun. (I mean the hammer is 1200 range and the shortbow is 900 lol feels like the bow should be at least as ranged as a hammer) As you may have noticed most of my opinions here are simply based on the feel and the fun of it all instead of the meta build potential, but that is important too. Thanks for your time.

[nosleepdemon.1368]

3 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

shortbow vindi feels pretty crazy, especially if cata and tempest see nerfs in the future

i basically only play renegade currently because i like the weapon kit, but this frees up my choice a lot which is kinda cool, but also feels a bit weird cause part of what keeps the weapon in check is renegade being a crappy traitline. i'm not sure power cares that much about the lack of pierce, at least in spvp, and vindi traits + the legend are waaaay better than renegade's.

also it being a better power weapon than hammer in most respects is kinda rough (poor shao lol), maybe it's time to change shortbow to lean more heavily towards its condi application so there's a distinct choice for what damage type you want in your ranged weapon. 

I think you got it a bit backwards - shortbow doesn't need specialization, it works brilliantly and compliments many builds which is a huge plus. What we need is to buff Hammer as well, so it is as useful as Shortbow. The distinction can lie in what effects the weapons have other than damage. Maybe hammer projectile absorb could be traited to reflect for example. Hammer also has the longer range and auto-pierce, so perhaps some changes can capitalize on this.

Edited June 30, 2023 by nosleepdemon.1368

[Farohna.6247]

SB on vindi is really lovely...the lack of it is what keeps me from playing vindi.  Ran around in open world in areas with chewier enemies and it was good fun. 

GS on renegade feels good overall, except it sucks a lot of energy.   I like the idea of it over staff in WvW.  In open world, it's fun to run in and start plowing into mobs with it lol.  Wish there were more stat options to experiment with, but hey it's a beta.  

[Strider.7849]

23 hours ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

core ranger with staff and dagger core warrior, altough vindicator with shield will lack shield trait for CD's  but herald wtih GS sounds catchy : }

like some one said on another thread, this will result on some weapons being  strong and others very very weak useless point.

 

My prediction is Anet  change or create one or another skill on those weapons to fit a more generalistic role or usage towards when not being used on the elite that boosts that weapon, for example Shield 5 on vindicator or in Renegade sounds weird and looks weird, a more fit skill should replace when keys skills towards some legend are used outside their legend.

My prediction is they are going to nerf every weapon set into mediocrity with some being completely unuseable - then the game is going to sit in that state for at least a couple years, while they make random and oddly bizarre adjustments no one asked for.

Not trying to sound negative or humorous by the way, it's legitimately what I think is going to happen.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

49 minutes ago, Strider.7849 said:

My prediction is they are going to nerf every weapon set into mediocrity with some being completely unuseable - then the game is going to sit in that state for at least a couple years, while they make random and oddly bizarre adjustments no one asked for.

Not trying to sound negative or humorous by the way, it's legitimately what I think is going to happen.

 

That is my fear too actually. Elite specs that do more damage getting weapons that do more damage...well that just sounds like a nerf waiting to happen. And a good way of ruining weapons that have otherwise been fine. I'm conflicted about the whole thing.

[Tekey.5084]

On 6/29/2023 at 2:18 PM, Esufer.8762 said:

Shortbow feels great on vindicator! I wish it had the piercing though.
Also, not giving access to Sigil of Cleansing during beta events feels REALLY BAD - please consider adding it in future betas!

Yeah, that does feels great. Finnaly an option for ranged weapon that's not as weird as hammer. I just get a bit bothered by the lack of torment or chill on the skill set (that is almost totally focused on burn). Understandable as a renegade weapon, but could be better for condi herald and condi vindicator, though the playstyle does feels great 

Edited July 2, 2023 by Tekey.5084

[nosleepdemon.1368]

2 hours ago, Za Shaloc.3908 said:

 

That is my fear too actually. Elite specs that do more damage getting weapons that do more damage...well that just sounds like a nerf waiting to happen. And a good way of ruining weapons that have otherwise been fine. I'm conflicted about the whole thing.

Yep let's face it; All they really need to do is nothing, which is precisely not what will happen. It's gun get wrekt.

[Shao.7236]

12 hours ago, Polar.8634 said:

i tried out gs on core too, since it is high damage and has block it is cool, but idk for shield, i played wvw and it is mostly 1vx, if i was to use shield 5 i'd just die faster especially against condi/cele. i would only take shield on herald, if ever, due to trait which cleanses condi on shield pulses

Core had it's way to mitigate conditions with damage reduction. If that's not used, you'll 100% certainly die.

18 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

(not that anyone uses it)

Unfortunately you have me so that's wrong. Hammer is not a playstyle people enjoy or want to wrap their heads around.

Fix the skill bugs and leave it as is, people have shortbow if they don't want to learn it.

 

 

Edited June 30, 2023 by Shao.7236

[Knighthonor.4061]

Shield Vindicator is fun in WvW. Hoping the Scepter will have some support options for when used with Centaur

[Angesombre.4630]

The problem with the hammer is that compared to other weapons it's slower and does average damage, with all the nerfs it's had, it's used for its range and the fact that it pierces with its first shot. If you compare other weapons like the guard's bow, the ranger's bow, the mesmer's GS, the engineer's rifle which also has the ability to pierce on its first shot.... the revenant's hammer has had a lot of nerfs but never updated.

And the shield is a joke on Skill 5, okay it's a bunker but you just have to wait for it to fall as you can't move with it.

[Knighthonor.4061]

3 hours ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

The problem with the hammer is that compared to other weapons it's slower and does average damage, with all the nerfs it's had, it's used for its range and the fact that it pierces with its first shot. If you compare other weapons like the guard's bow, the ranger's bow, the mesmer's GS, the engineer's rifle which also has the ability to pierce on its first shot.... the revenant's hammer has had a lot of nerfs but never updated.

And the shield is a joke on Skill 5, okay it's a bunker but you just have to wait for it to fall as you can't move with it.

Shield should have never been an elite spec weapon when you can tell its meant for Core. 

[Mongk.2458]

I would love if they released the legends too and the elite specs traits could be to improve the mechanics and the power of the legend, as the core one does. Rev is a special case anyway.

 

And adding, please rework hammer and shield!!!

[Buran.3796]

   First of all, spec weapons shared across all core and spec builds was largely anticipated. Not only makes sense but also is a way to add novelty without having to make dozens of new skills.

   Is also a safe choice overall, since the chances of game breaking performance with the new iterations isn't that big. Some of the weapons were heavily designed as part of the traitlines and skills of past specs, so if you remove them oftenly will underperform. That's particulary true with Warrior weapons and some from Guardian also.

   Now, in the case of the Revenant:I've playing a bit with beta characters in PvP and WvW. My thoughs:

* Shield: didn't use it in the beta. The only template in which I've used shield in the part was a bunker Herald build which wasn't as good as tank as some current builds are as bruisers (Cata, Holos, etc.). So, stripped from the Herald traits, shield is even weaker and has no use. Score::  1/5.

* Greatsword: greatsword will probably be meta for power dps builds with Herals and maybe even Renegade. Is a fantastic option for leveling core Rev, albeit condi Rev is stronger than power Rev (specially now with the short bow). But to be honest, it feels stronger in Vindicator than in the other specs. Score: 3/5.

* Short Bow: the star of the party. The lack of a proficient core ranged weapon for PvE gets finally solved; short bow works well with both power and condi damage and is an excellent backup for any spec. It will be probably the best leveling weapon for newcomers. It will used at both power and condi builds. Despite the loss of some features without the Renegade traitline and F skills, seems very stronmg in PvP and WvW roaming, and I'm not entirely sure which one (sb Renegade or sb vindicator) is stronger in competitive game modes. At PvE Renegade has the advantage of delivering either alacrity or higher peak damage, whereas sb Vindicator has insane sustain and makes even stronger the maybe best solo build in the game. Score 4/5 due loses some funcions, but that's exactly how should be.

Overall, very positive new feature for Revenants. I'm sure that other professions would have even better aditions, but compared to the other heavy classes, we had some  luck this time.

[Scoobaniec.9561]

This could actually bring me back to the game to play every now and then. But then i remember what they have done to rev and what they still doing (cd to banish) so really.. why bother? 

[Sorasnobody.9350]

Dropping off some information from my notes here! Keep in mind, most of these are from a solo-play perspective but I did try a few instanced content builds too! I do want to make a point on shield, but that will be later down!

Herald:

Mace/axe & shortbow -

I love shortbow on revenant, probably one of my favourite weapons in the entire game, but I haven't really got to enjoy it with Renegade. I love Herald thematics so this is heaven. I always felt energy was just abundant on a solo build for Herald as you are just use mace/axe, but this gives you a proper rotation. It was hard to get an accurate idea of how this was going to work as the quickness is still a little scuffed and I'm awaiting the 18th of July for the changes. However, it was nice to use shortbow and it was pulling just as much damage almost as a live server solo herald, and this had scuffed gear.

• Shortbow is great! More damage, soft and hard crowd control and can give you some mid-range gameplay.
• Quickness paired with the shortbow is also great for solo play.
• Fixed a few weak points for me as I didn't really enjoy how energy intensive Renegade was for solo, but I didn't enjoy how relaxed Herald was on energy. It got rather boring, but Shortbow adds some extra spice to the gameplay for me!
• Gives a strong double weapon set condition build too!

Renegade:

Heal Alacrity Renegade - mace/shield & staff

This is already a build, but I really don't like having to go to mace/x to blast my might, as the off-hand always feel out of place. With this build I could easily heal moderately threatening in Special Forces while keeping up all of my boons. I do need to look at regeneration a little more, but It is nice as your might generating weapon set can easily heal without needing to swap. You can ramp up a lot of might quickly too, so if you need to swap to staff for burst healing more so, you have a lot of built up might.

• Mace/shield is really nice as it gives you a load of might blasting, shield four gives some healing while on this weapon set and extra protection up-time. This helps you sustain damage pressure without the need of staff to keep might blasting
• It has all the other strengths of Renegade, and the one thing that was grating me (off-hand) has been fixed/changed so I'm super excited!
• Shield 5, we gonna talk about that later on, but it feels very obstructive to use given the current environment in the game. It is slow and stops you from aiding allies at all, to instead protect yourself, which feels reverse psychology for how shield was brought into the game, as a more group support weapon.

 

Vindicator:

mace/axe & shortbow -

I cannot tell you HOW MUCH I LOVE THIS OKAY. I recently made Chuka and Champawat, and it is one of my favourite legendaries, but my spark deflated as I wasn't enjoying Renegade. I love Vindicator, but it was getting rather boring for me just having a single weapon set. Having access to shortbow is a huge win! In solo play this build is immortal, and it has now gained a ton more damage, among other things.

• Extra damage from having two weapon sets. It also counters the issue I've had where I feel you have a surplus of energy and it feels rather wasted with a single weapon set.
• Shortbow has soft and hard crowd control and I was missing this on solo Vindicator and I really enjoy being able to effectively crowd control
• I know its just a personal cheesy point, but there is something very thematically correct about having Archemorus throwing their spear while I'm hailing down arrows. It just hits right for me!
• It should help boost damage as well when I can check this with proper gear.

 

Issue(s) and proposal(s):

Much like my Mesmer feedback, it isn't specifically anything to do with the beta, but I'm noticing some glaring issues with shield. Shield four is fine, I wouldn't say no to a slight healing increase or scaling with healing power so healing builds can boost this healing and none-healing builds don't just get free healing without investment. Shield 5 however is pretty sluggish and not very fun. As I briefly mentioned, it is all focused around protecting yourself, when shield, at least for me-feels like it was designed as a group support weapon. I feel it should either remain a channeled block, with new functionality or be reworked. I'll list this as proposal (a) and proposal (b):

• Proposal (A): You will be able to to move while channelling this. It will either retain the self block, or get rid of this for more group support. The new effect would be it would pulse 5 times and each pulse would give barrier to nearby allies and a small heal (or this little heal can be skipped out). I feel this would be a way of giving shield some more group support through damage mitigation.
• Proposal (B): This would redesign the ability entirely. You would have a ground targeted ability where you throw your shield to a nearby area and it pulses healing as like a healing font sort of thing? The final pulse could give a stronger heal and maybe a condition cleanse and then the shield would come back to you. It could even be pushed a step further where you can use shield 4 while it is active to cause the healing to occur where the shield is instead and give the double protection. If this functionality came into play, shield 4 could become a blast finisher, and shield 5 could be a water field to give advanced shield users some more burst healing potential.

As I have echoed, I don't prepare myself for any of my proposals to be considered, I just like to offer them, especially in this case with shield becoming universal across revenant. All the same, I am so excited for my original main spec in Secrets of the Obscure!

[Woop S.7851]

To echo some others above, the hammer needs major rework, and 2 of the critical mechanics that seems to be the root of issues in WvW are: 1. The Legend Stance Swap Time, and 2. The Energy Usage/Upkeep

Quote from GW2wiki: "Revenant: Heavily armored and equipped with the otherworldly powers of the Mists, revenants channel Tyria’s legends to slaughter foes, unleash chaos on the battlefield, and support their allies."

In other words the original purpose of the Revenant as a heavy armor profession was to: DPS/Crowd Control like a Warrior on the battlefield, Unleash chaos like a Mesmer/Scourge (Demon stance/Torment/Confusion), and Support/Heal allies like a Ele/Guardian

*Proposal/Method for testing + reworking the weapons/mechanics (WvW):

• A/B testing 1: decrease legend swap by 50% only, observe rotations of weapon combos, dps, cc, other effects
• A/B testing 2: decrease energy usage of 'all' skills by 50%, observe rotations of weapon combos, dps, cc, other effects
• A/B testing 3: decrease both legend swap + energy usage from all skills both by 50%, if a player is using Short-bow/Axe/Mace + Shiro/Demon stances, are they able to output huge damage in a short time by swapping weapons and legends + weapons on the fly? If yes, do these weapon combinations focus on DPS? Control/interrupts? Condition damage? If yes to all 3, it'd be too powerful, either scale the damage, remove 1 of the 3, or tailor any of the 3 to specific weapon combinations/legends, then re-analyze the 'rotations' after nudging energy upkeep/consumption, rinse and repeat until each weapon is fleshed out/balanced

Note: one profession with a similar but a more complex mechanic is the Deadeye, both Malice and Initiative are similar to energy where weapons/combos/traits act differently, it might be good to analyze what works for Deadeye's core mechanic before A/B testing the Revenant weapons to get a sense of how each small adjustment could impact any of the Weapon/DPS/condition/Control/Interruption/Legendary stance rotations.

Example scenarios in WvW:

A. Solo roaming Rev
B. 2-5 person smallscale Rev
C. Rev in a 20-50 person Zerg

In scenario A, there is a higher chance the Rev would need self-sustain, DPS or Condition damage + escape, Shiro/Dragon Legends would be used more frequently, if this is the meta, weapons can be scaled/adjusted to fit?

In scenario B, 2-5 person small-scale Rev would need to be much more versatile/dynamic:

• There are too many random variables as to what the other allied players might use for profession, hence the Rev would act as auxiliary
• If group does not have a CC/DPS warrior, the Rev (Vindicator) can act as the replacement with Hammer/Greatsword maybe?
• If group needs a Guardian/Healer, Rev (Herald) can use Centaur/Dwarven legends + staff/shield and act as one?
• If group does not have Mesmer or Ele DPS, Rev (Renegade) can use Demon stance/Dragon + Short-bow/Mace/Axe/Sword and so on...

*The combinations are limitless only if 'Legend swap timing + Energy usage' are looked at first for each weapon

In scenario C, a large Zerg will need area buffs, Revenant + Dragon stance with pulsing facets was the meta a while back, but the player can still choose to play their preferred style (refer to scenario B above) giving major flexibility and versatility. Hope this helps, all the best!

Edited July 4, 2023 by Woop S.7851
typo

[Dante.1508]

Revenant was nerfed to hell. Its not worth wasting your time.

[Aeolus.3615]

11 hours ago, Dante.1508 said:

Revenant was nerfed to hell. Its not worth wasting your time.

my sword 3 sometimes hit arround 20k to 24k when at full might (deppends also mob and how much vulnerability target has) and i dont play zerker stats.

On GS herald ive reached 29k bursts with GS5 and arround 3k-5k autos.

Herald with shortbow 20-25 might perma fury felt very good where i hated myself to feel good with that weapon Ç_Ç i know makes no sense... it is what is is.

Edited July 4, 2023 by Aeolus.3615

[Dante.1508]

21 hours ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

my sword 3 sometimes hit arround 20k to 24k when at full might (deppends also mob and how much vulnerability target has) and i dont play zerker stats.

On GS herald ive reached 29k bursts with GS5 and arround 3k-5k autos.

Herald with shortbow 20-25 might perma fury felt very good where i hated myself to feel good with that weapon Ç_Ç i know makes no sense... it is what is is.

Great Spam sword 3 lol meanwhile the rest of the skills and specs will stagnate.

[Tekey.5084]

A bit of a shame that only shortbow 3 applies torment and most of the weapon skills are focused on burning and sometimes bleeding, as they're not the most effective conditions for revenant. Thematic, yeah, but less effective than they could be on this profission. If anet just added a way to apply torment through some of the other 4 shortbow skills, it could be a really amazing weapon for many different builds