So Relics will be vertical progression, power creep and pay to win? [Merged]

[Ashen.2907]

5 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

That was his response to my post in which I said nerf patch.  Read further upstream and you'll see the context of the actual discussion.

Gotcha.

For what it is worth, I agree. Every nerf patch pushes some sort of rebuilding....Not always regearing though since most dont involve significant changes to gear.

[fable spirt.8465]

I welcome this relic change to gear. I have 6 legendary runes and lets face it there are a lot of runes that are trash and some that are only ran for the 6th slot. This way they can condense runes that all do the same thing down to stats and possibly add a few new stat combos. Then you can craft or farm the 6th bonus you want to run without having to run a rune that you have to but does not grant the stats you want.

Edited July 7, 2023 by fable spirt.8465

[Sreoom.3690]

I am concerned about the surgical removal of the 6th Rune Stat....I like others have devoted time, effort, in game resources and real $$ to craft full legendaries...light, Medium, and Heavy Legendary armor, many legendary Weapons (working on duplicates for the double weapon builds)...4 sigils, and 7 runes.   I wonder what percentage of the player base has done as much or more...I speculate less than 10%....does anyone know the real %?

Anyway, my rationale for doing this was to avoid chasing meta build with each balance patch...today I don't worry about a balance patch because I know all my characters can adjust to it with minimal effort.

Will this be the case after the SoS has been released?  If not, I will be an unhappy whale.

 

Edited July 7, 2023 by Sreoom.3690

[Linken.6345]

2 hours ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

I'm not talking about that fringe case.  I'm talking about the general player population.  The norm, not the exception.

The norm is that each time a nerf patch happens many players are forced to spend currency or time to offset that nerf by getting new equipment or runes/sigils or to change their builds entirely to remain relevant.  

It is strange I have been able to play in berserker gear since release of gw2, were is my forced to spend time and currency exactly?

[Thorne.9857]

1 hour ago, Linken.6345 said:

It is strange I have been able to play in berserker gear since release of gw2, were is my forced to spend time and currency exactly?

Heck, I've been running Marauder's since I started playing and haven't needed to re-gear since I got my Ascended stuff. Apparently I missed the memo too.

[WRay.2391]

4 hours ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

Pointing out that Nerf patches result in players having to pay currency or grind to change their builds to offset them is somehow "protective" of ANET?  Pointing out that just because the fringe cases of those that have legendaries don't have to pay currency doesn't mean it disproves the generality that most people have to is "protective" of ANET?   

Again, the difference is even if you don't have legendary but have 2 ascended/exotic sets, one berserker, 1 condi. Let's assume there was a patch that nerfed berserker, followed by second patch that nerfed condi and returned berserker to previous level.

Case 1: you switch to condi gear after patch 1, just returned to berserker from condi after patch 2.

Case 2: you switched to condi gear after patch 1, but after patch 2 your berserker gear was reset to stat selection with inability to choose berserker. You need to grind something to get it back. And they provide ability to still return ONE piece of gear to berserker as a compensation.

Case 2 is a situation with relics. Even if you don't have legendary runes but have multiple rune sets with legendary armor (which allows free swap), you are affected.

[Geralt.7519]

6 hours ago, Dopamine.6324 said:

but we know how relics are obtained and by now you could already start banking reward track potions and by the time xpac hits you will have atleast 5 relics available.

Don't new reward tracks have to be activated by playing the new maps first? And that's also assuming that exactly the relics you need will be given out by tracks and not some other content, we don't know that yet, not all relics will be acquired the same way, that's what Anet said.

 

3 hours ago, Sreoom.3690 said:

Anyway, my rationale for doing this was to avoid chasing meta build with each balance patch...today I don't worry about a balance patch because I know all my characters can adjust to it with minimal effort.

Will this be the case after the SoS has been released?  If not, I will be an unhappy whale.

That's THE reason to make legendaries, not having to worry about balance patches ever again, they're removing that certainty from runes with Soto, and if they don't implement a legendary relic (they didn't announce it) and give it as reward for crafting a set of runes, legendary runes will be seriously devaluated, that's something that should never occur to a legendary.

Luckily for me I found about this thing before buying the new xpac (I have all 7 runes) and if Anet doesn't answer I will not buy it.

And if my chars are screwed because of it, I'll just stick to WoW (I play both).

Edited July 7, 2023 by Geralt.7519

[Buran.3796]

9 hours ago, Geralt.7519 said:

Subs are the most reliable source of income there is, they allow for more accurate planning and for pumping out such amount of content that non-sub games can't even dream of.

   I can't agree with this take when Path of Exile has been trampling Diablo III RoS for ages and now Diablo IV in content added to the game. Not to mention that last time I talked with a friend which has been a WoW player since its release He toild me that He no longer remains suscribed all year but instead He subs for 3-4 months after each new expansion and after finishing the content He moves to another games for the rest of the year.

  Anyone which thinks that Blizzard is able to provide content to play his games all year around hasn't been in touch with the relaity of the company lately...   The aren't even able to produce PvE content for a game which was released just to add PvE content to the original game (Overwatch 2).

   I still waiting a rational explanation about how replacving a system which works (runes) with other which is supposed to do the same but forces you to re-gear again (relics) is good or anything but an attempt to introduce new monetization in a game which prtomised no firther evrtical progression...

[Geralt.7519]

8 minutes ago, Buran.3796 said:

  Anyone which thinks that Blizzard is able to provide content to play his games all year around

No game in the world is able to provide content all 365 day of the year for today's content locusts, but I've been playing WoW for almost 20 years and I can tell you the amount of content is insane, every xpac is massive, a single content patch can easily provide the same amount of content a f2p/b2p games give you as xpacs.

Most WoW players don't stay subbed the entire time, they come and go at content patches, it's well known, the important thing is this is a very regular cycle that allows for accurate planning, 2 months of WoW sub cost like an entire GW2 xpac, and a WoW xpac cost double, multiply that for the millions of players WoW has and see how much easier it is for them to pump out content regularly compared to any non-sub game.

 

8 minutes ago, Buran.3796 said:

 I still waiting a rational explanation about how replacving a system which works (runes) with other which is supposed to do the same but forces you to re-gear again (relics) is good or anything but an attempt to introduce new monetization in a game which prtomised no firther evrtical progression...

I'd love to know that too.

[Forgotten Legend.9281]

yes, relics will be vertical progression at level 60. (not usable at level 59, but usable at 60)

no, relics will NOT be vertical progression for level 80s.

this appears to be a CHANGE for everyone released at the same time as the expansion, but probably will not require a purchase of the expansion.

Anet has done this before: released new features for the core game at the same time as an expansion, without requiring purchase of the expansion for the new feature. such as:

(On HoT release:)

Desert Borderlands in WvW, Defiance Bar on bosses,

• Fractals of the Mists fractal selection and scaling rework
• Map bonus rewards
• Alacrity combat effect, defiance bar, action camera mode

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Release shows all the release summaries including new features.

[Graymatter.4723]

7 hours ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

Would you say 2.5% represents the norm or the exception?

Your quote was "99.99% of players don't have full sets of all legendary of every armor class, accessories, and weapon type.". As I said, you are creating stats out of thin air to justify your position. GW2Efficiency has over 404k accounts. So that's already over 10k people that will have legendary gear, runes, sigils, and weapon to cover all of the specs that they regularly play. Over 20k people would be close to that using the 5% figure. The only thing holding them back might be a couple of weapons. That's your most regular and reliable players. People who spend a large amount of time in WvW, sPVP, raids, strikes, etc. and a lot of money on the game. The amount of revenue for each player isn't a straight line. That top 5% of players will spend more than the 40% of players who don't have any legendaries.

[Mungrul.9358]

You know, I realised something else this morning.

With the Skiff, Jade Bot and Fishing Rods, ANet introduced more paths of skin monetisation.

I wouldn't be surprised if this is the major drive behind implementuing Relics as well.

[Graymatter.4723]

5 minutes ago, Forgotten Legend.9281 said:

yes, relics will be vertical progression at level 60. (not usable at level 59, but usable at 60)

no, relics will NOT be vertical progression for level 80s.

this appears to be a CHANGE for everyone released at the same time as the expansion, but probably will not require a purchase of the expansion.

Anet has done this before: released new features for the core game at the same time as an expansion, without requiring purchase of the expansion for the new feature. such as:

(On HoT release:)

Desert Borderlands in WvW, Defiance Bar on bosses,

• Fractals of the Mists fractal selection and scaling rework
• Map bonus rewards
• Alacrity combat effect, defiance bar, action camera mode

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Release shows all the release summaries including new features.

I don't think it's pay to win but it's definitely vertical progression. Some relics will be more powerful and some will be pretty useless. That's progression. Especially if the more powerful relics are locked behind more difficult or time consuming content. There is also a question about whether they will be character bound or account bound. There is a pay wall because some relics are locked behind the expansion but that's no different from the elite specs so I don't personally have an issue with that. The game needs to be funded.

[Geralt.7519]

57 minutes ago, Forgotten Legend.9281 said:

no, relics will NOT be vertical progression for level 80s.

They are removing the set bonus from runes to move it to the relic slot.

Every single lvl 80 will lose the set bonus at Soto launch and people will have to grind the new relics for every single build on every single char they have, to get back what they have now.

Please explain to me how this is not vertical gear progression.

Edited July 7, 2023 by Geralt.7519
typo

[DeathPanel.8362]

10 hours ago, Linken.6345 said:

It is strange I have been able to play in berserker gear since release of gw2, were is my forced to spend time and currency exactly?

So you're still in full exotic berserk gear?  Fractals must be difficult.

[DeathPanel.8362]

5 hours ago, Graymatter.4723 said:

Your quote was "99.99% of players don't have full sets of all legendary of every armor class, accessories, and weapon type.". As I said, you are creating stats out of thin air to justify your position. GW2Efficiency has over 404k accounts. So that's already over 10k people that will have legendary gear, runes, sigils, and weapon to cover all of the specs that they regularly play. Over 20k people would be close to that using the 5% figure. The only thing holding them back might be a couple of weapons. That's your most regular and reliable players. People who spend a large amount of time in WvW, sPVP, raids, strikes, etc. and a lot of money on the game. The amount of revenue for each player isn't a straight line. That top 5% of players will spend more than the 40% of players who don't have any legendaries.

You haven't answered the question.  Is 2.5% exceptional or normal?

[Astralporing.1957]

7 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

   I can't agree with this take when Path of Exile has been trampling Diablo III RoS for ages and now Diablo IV in content added to the game.

Since when Diablo is a subscription game? Did i miss something?

[DeathPanel.8362]

7 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

   I can't agree with this take when Path of Exile has been trampling Diablo III RoS for ages and now Diablo IV in content added to the game. Not to mention that last time I talked with a friend which has been a WoW player since its release He toild me that He no longer remains suscribed all year but instead He subs for 3-4 months after each new expansion and after finishing the content He moves to another games for the rest of the year.

   I still waiting a rational explanation about how replacving a system which works (runes) with other which is supposed to do the same but forces you to re-gear again (relics) is good or anything but an attempt to introduce new monetization in a game which prtomised no firther evrtical progression...

Since you mentioned POE you realize POE has been replacing systems that work many times with other ones right?  Forsaken masters were replaced.  Atlas zone passives were implemented and replaced by Atlas passives.  Some effects were shifted into Specializations, masteries, and clustered jewels.

Runes aren't getting replaced.  They're getting supplemented by Relics.  In the same way, the passive tree in POE was supplemented by the addition of Masteries and Clustered Jewels which they shifted existing effects into.

[DeathPanel.8362]

8 hours ago, WRay.2391 said:

Again, the difference is even if you don't have legendary but have 2 ascended/exotic sets, one berserker, 1 condi. Let's assume there was a patch that nerfed berserker, followed by second patch that nerfed condi and returned berserker to previous level.

Case 1: you switch to condi gear after patch 1, just returned to berserker from condi after patch 2.

Case 2: you switched to condi gear after patch 1, but after patch 2 your berserker gear was reset to stat selection with inability to choose berserker. You need to grind something to get it back. And they provide ability to still return ONE piece of gear to berserker as a compensation.

Case 2 is a situation with relics. Even if you don't have legendary runes but have multiple rune sets with legendary armor (which allows free swap), you are affected.

Nothing said here refutes what I've said.  The bottom line is Nerf patches result in time or currency needed to offset.  I wasn't complaining about it.  I was just pointing out the facts of the situation to point out that this relic change is not any different fundamentally.

[idpersona.3810]

37 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

  I was just pointing out the facts of the situation to point out that this relic change is not any different fundamentally.

I don't understand your view on this. (Possibly) respeccing a character or 2 after a patch is in no way the same as having to hunt/pay for a new item slot for 100% of all characters on your account (or multiple accounts for some). You are really dug in defending this change and I don't get it.

In any case, I really hope they come out with actual information soon. On both how the relics will be implemented and what's going to happen with legendary runes. Some official statement would go a long way to ending all of this speculation and arguing/debate.

[DeathPanel.8362]

5 minutes ago, idpersona.3810 said:

I don't understand your view on this. (Possibly) respeccing a character or 2 after a patch is in no way the same as having to hunt/pay for a new item slot for 100% of all characters on your account (or multiple accounts for some). You are really dug in defending this change and I don't get it.

In any case, I really hope they come out with actual information soon. On both how the relics will be implemented and what's going to happen with legendary runes. Some official statement would go a long way to ending all of this speculation and arguing/debate.

The difference is in degrees, not the fundamentals.  Time and currency are still needed in both situations.  You also can't know that this new item slot will take more currency than respeccing a character or 2's gear since that could run up to 100+ gold easily if you are replacing ascended armor pieces.   That will only be known once they provide this info or after release.

[Polar.8634]

I'll help you with statistics I am in 10% on gw2 efficiency and am full lege, could get there earlier if wanted, so at least 10% of registered on efficiency which is 40000.

[DeathPanel.8362]

13 minutes ago, Polar.8634 said:

I'll help you with statistics I am in 10% on gw2 efficiency and am full lege, could get there earlier if wanted, so at least 10% of registered on efficiency which is 40000.

That's out of the people that bothered to create an account on GW2 efficiency or even knew what it was.  That in itself is a very tiny portion of the entire player base.

The total player base of GW2 is 18,369,523 according to mmo-population.

Edit:

In addition, people who are serious enough about playing a game that they'd sign up for GW2Efficiency and link up their GW2 accounts through API calls are typically amongst the most legendary holders, so statistics in GW2Efficiency isn't at all representative of the entire overall player base.

Edited July 7, 2023 by DeathPanel.8362

[Astralporing.1957]

2 hours ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

Nothing said here refutes what I've said.  The bottom line is Nerf patches result in time or currency needed to offset. 

Not for owners of legendaries. For them it only results in need to restat and respec, which costs them exactly zero gold and negligible amount of effort. Until Relic change, that is.

1 hour ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

You also can't know that this new item slot will take more currency than respeccing a character or 2's gear since that could run up to 100+ gold easily if you are replacing ascended armor pieces.

Again, no matter the cost of relics, or effort required for them, unless it is exactly zero, for legendary owners it will definitely result in more cost than respeccing after a balance patch.

Mind you, if that cost/effort were to be insignificantly low, then Anet can, indeed, just give everyone a free Legendary Relic (or an equivalent) and be done with it, because then the difference would also be insignificant, while giving them some good PR.

Edited July 7, 2023 by Astralporing.1957

[Cronospere.8143]

On 6/28/2023 at 11:12 PM, Buran.3796 said:

   ...Your 6th rune will add stat progression and a new gear piece (Relics) would have to be grinded in order to re-gain the 6th bonus and not fell behind handicaped. Or you could buy gems, convert to gold and aleviate some of the grind for the recovering the convenience of something you already had.

   That doesn't sounds like "horizontal progression" at all to me. The power creep has been present for years since with the expansions the specs always add options, and options would provide further optimizations. But here we are talking about extra stats + losing convenience which has to be gained back again. In a game which didn't bother to release new runes in years and deleted most of them from PvP as a fast and lazy alternative to trying to balance them...

    I'm really surprised of the course this ship is taking...

Jade bots also moved the game a bit away from horizontal progression. Since it added more vitality