Zero.1028 Posted July 20, 2023 Share Posted July 20, 2023 5 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said: Can't wait for the next xpac "we created a new item, called socks Don't give them any ideas lol 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted July 20, 2023 Share Posted July 20, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, Cuks.8241 said: Since I started about employees I might as well stir it again. First of all the term was reluctant to changes, not opposing. Yeah its a semantic but I think its important in this context. It was just general observation since its also something I deal often with within my work team where due to the nature of our job the only constant is constant changes. There are always a few in teams that are conservative and reluctant to changes. Nothing wrong with that, they serve as a conservative check. But if you want to advance you need changes so too many like that will stop the advancements. This forum often reminds me of that and the poster I quoted triggered that. Its not that they are firmly opposing changes. They just come up with many potential obstacles and problems that it can spread reluctance and pessimism (and in these threads also entitlement and greed). And while they might be correct on some points, sometimes you just need to take some risks, push through and solve it on the way, be flexible. And its definitely relevant to this topic and forums in general. How often is 10 years old Anet's manifesto or promise brought up (and sometimes just made up)? It was definitely brought up in this and other relevant threads. And no I will not point them out but you can see many people found themselves in that post from the heated response. If you want to be successful and stay relevant, the last thing you want to stick is to some 10 years old manifesto. I am happy Anet is willing to go against it if they deem it obsolete. Also you can just read the title of the topic. I mean its not explicitly against, but I would say reluctance is a mild description. For what its worth, reluctance in the face of, or opposition to, a specific change is not reluctance or opposition to change itself. Every player that spent the resources to acquire legendary runes was embracing a change. Every player wanting to play the expac despite being unhappy with having something they paid for taken away and resold back to them is embracing a change. Most of those complaining about the relic situation seem to be upset about the details of the change, not the fact that changes are coming. I dislike seafood, if my favorite restaurant changed its menu to all fish all the time it would not be a matter of conservative thought or reluctance to embrace change that would cause me to take my business elsewhere. Edited July 20, 2023 by Ashen.2907 4 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincolnbeard.1735 Posted July 20, 2023 Share Posted July 20, 2023 I don't have any legendary rune and I despise this kitten. This whole xpac screams - low effort money grabbing crap. Relics are 6th rune renamed. Elite weapons unlocked for all instead of new elite specs - lowest effort possible, no need to create new skills, except in very specific cases. Only 2 maps. It will be fun seeing the end of the year NCSoft quarterly report. 2 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vandal.5621 Posted July 20, 2023 Share Posted July 20, 2023 MMO players and nor understanding terminology: name a more iconic duo. Relics are not vertical progression nor are they pay to win. Y'all wilding. 4 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted July 20, 2023 Share Posted July 20, 2023 4 minutes ago, Vandal.5621 said: MMO players and nor understanding terminology: name a more iconic duo. Relics are not vertical progression Adding gear that makes you more powerful than if you dont get it is not vertical progression? 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buran.3796 Posted July 20, 2023 Author Share Posted July 20, 2023 1 hour ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said: Delete one item functionality, add the same functionality with other name and sell it as content. LOL This game is nothing but a meme. They aren't even adding the same functionality: currently the PvE/WvW game has 99 different runes, the August 22 patch will replace their 6th effets with 52 relics, so the mini-exp essentially deletes half of the runes (not like more than 10 or 12 were in use, but you get it. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idpersona.3810 Posted July 20, 2023 Share Posted July 20, 2023 6 minutes ago, Vandal.5621 said: Relics are not vertical progression nor are they pay to win. I think the wholly depends on if you consider power creep vertical progression. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vandal.5621 Posted July 20, 2023 Share Posted July 20, 2023 Just now, Ashen.2907 said: Adding gear that makes you more powerful than if you dont get it is not vertical progression? Reworking existing systems is not vertical progression, no. They are not introducing a new level of content that invalidates all previous gear. WoW is vertical progression. GW2 is not. 3 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vandal.5621 Posted July 20, 2023 Share Posted July 20, 2023 Just now, idpersona.3810 said: I think the wholly depends on if you consider power creep vertical progression. It's not, no. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted July 20, 2023 Share Posted July 20, 2023 2 hours ago, Cuks.8241 said: Where do I pretend that there aren't bad changes? I even wrote about conservative check which I see as a positive. You're making stuff up. Rare for the gw2 community to get worked up about changes? I've never seen any community cling to some 10 years old ideals even remotely close to this one. Getting so triggered because they added 1 equipment slot after 10 years 🙃 but I guess they promised. Might i interest you in some ideals, called democracy, personal freedom and free speech? Funny how a lot of people are getting triggered at the very suggestion those ideas might get compromised. Must be overtly conservative and way too reluctant to change. And those ideas are way, way older than 10 years. Silly them, right? Seriously, the ideals that are being undermined here are some of the core tenets of GW2. A lot of people picked this game (and not a different one) specifically due to those tenets. There's a reason why ascended gear introduction caused a massive backlash then. And there was a reason why Anet aned backpedaled and ultimately promised that no, ascended will be the only exception, and there will be no gear grind itroduced after it. For someone that does not care about the vertical vs horizontal progression divide it may seem trivial, but for those that do care and specifically picked GW2 to escape the vertical grind games it is an absolutely major issue that lies at the core of whole game. It was once a game for those that hated vertical gear grind systems. Now it's not. Simple as that. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted July 20, 2023 Share Posted July 20, 2023 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Vandal.5621 said: Reworking existing systems is not vertical progression, no. They are not introducing a new level of content that invalidates all previous gear. WoW is vertical progression. GW2 is not. Vertical progression is not about you getting stronger through new gear. It tries to present itself so, but it in reality it's about something else - you standing in place while running forward (and getting left behind when you stop running). The relic system (or, more precisely, how it will get implemented) is exactly that - depowering you, and making you grind to get back to the point from which you started. That's the very essence of a vertical progression game hamster wheel system. Edited July 20, 2023 by Astralporing.1957 2 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted July 20, 2023 Share Posted July 20, 2023 23 minutes ago, Vandal.5621 said: Reworking existing systems is not vertical progression, no. They are not introducing a new level of content that invalidates all previous gear. WoW is vertical progression. GW2 is not. Vertical progression does include raising the upper end of the power scale via gear which players must then work to acquire. This is what is happening here. Characters will become more powerful by acquiring relics. GW2 has always had vertical progression, but most of it was before level cap. This just adds an additional element of verticality to the post 80 experience. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vandal.5621 Posted July 20, 2023 Share Posted July 20, 2023 14 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said: Vertical progression does include raising the upper end of the power scale via gear which players must then work to acquire. This is what is happening here. Characters will become more powerful by acquiring relics. GW2 has always had vertical progression, but most of it was before level cap. This just adds an additional element of verticality to the post 80 experience. No, it's not vertical progression. You are simply wrong. 2 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted July 20, 2023 Share Posted July 20, 2023 2 minutes ago, Vandal.5621 said: No, it's not vertical progression. You are simply wrong. Nice try. It is progression and it is vertical. Unless we have decided to use definitions of words that are unique to you, by definition of the words used it is vertical progression. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vandal.5621 Posted July 20, 2023 Share Posted July 20, 2023 1 minute ago, Ashen.2907 said: Nice try. It is progression and it is vertical. Unless we have decided to use definitions of words that are unique to you, by definition of the words used it is vertical progression. It is not progression and it is not vertical. You literally have no idea what you're talking about. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted July 20, 2023 Share Posted July 20, 2023 Just now, Vandal.5621 said: It is not progression and it is not vertical. You literally have no idea what you're talking about. If it provides a bonus that generates a level of power above what one has without it then, by definition, it is vertical progression. If my power level is at X then working to acquire a piece of gear that will augment my power level to X + 1 is vertical progression. If you want some help with this, try RIF.org 2 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaqueFyre.5678 Posted July 20, 2023 Share Posted July 20, 2023 See I called it they wouldn’t be happy unless they got undeserved free things for no effort/work. Being around the forums a while seeing some of the same people want things without putting in the effort for them is why I knew where they were complaining from. nothing you say will change their mind they just want free items and nothing less. I’m glad Anet went the way they did, it means some work needs to be put in and they even threw everyone a bone who has or wants legendary runes. And it’s a nice perk that I won’t have to grind too much for the legendary relic whenever they implement it. 2 2 7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 29 minutes ago, BlaqueFyre.5678 said: undeserved free things for no effort/work You might want to reexamine your understanding of the word, "free." A set of legendary runes can cost over 2,000 gold and include a sixth slot bonus function. 2k gold costs (according to GWE) over $70. So, people paid over $70 for something and want it back without paying more. That is not free. 4 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaqueFyre.5678 Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 (edited) 1 minute ago, Ashen.2907 said: You might want to reexamine your understanding of the word, "free." A set of legendary runes can cost over 2,000 gold and include a sixth slot bonus function. 2k gold costs (according to GWE) over $70. So, people paid over $70 for something and want it back without paying more. That is not free. Relics aren’t runes… so people wanting the relics for free is them wanting it for free and it’s the same people that wanted other items without putting in the effort/methods to acquire them. No one paid for the relics Edited July 21, 2023 by BlaqueFyre.5678 4 2 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 Just now, BlaqueFyre.5678 said: Relics aren’t runes… so people wanting the relics for free is them wanting it for free and it’s the same people that wanted other items without putting in the effort/methods to acquire them. No one paid for the relics They want the functionality they paid for. Changing that functionality's name does not change the fact that they paid for it. If your address is 219E St and the person you are leasing from changes the address to 220E st they cant say, "you paid for 219E for the full year of 2023, this is 220E so you now have to pay for the year again." Now, ANet can do this. They have the legal right. That does not make customer disatisfaction with having functionality they paid for removed any less appropriate. In the end who knows if this will make them more money than it costs them. They spent resources creating a system to deprive players of what they already paid for...now it remains to be seen if that cost combined with the loss of revenue from those dissatisfied with the system (such as myself) can be overcome by increased spending by those who like it. Personally I dont see many people committing to spending more, above the cost of the expac itself, to cover the loss. Who is going to pick up my $500-$1k per month? You? 2 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaqueFyre.5678 Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 Just now, Ashen.2907 said: They want the functionality they paid for. Changing that functionality's name does not change the fact that they paid for it. If your address is 219E St and the person you are leasing from changes the address to 220E st they cant say, "you paid for 219E for the full year of 2023, this is 220E so you now have to pay for the year again." Now, ANet can do this. They have the legal right. That does not make customer disatisfaction with having functionality they paid for removed any less appropriate. In the end who knows if this will make them more money than it costs them. They spent resources creating a system to deprive players of what they already paid for...now it remains to be seen if that cost combined with the loss of revenue from those dissatisfied with the system (such as myself) can be overcome by increased spending by those who like it. Personally I dont see many people committing to spending more, above the cost of the expac itself, to cover the loss. Who is going to pick up my $500-$1k per month? You? As I stated many times before the only functionality of Legendary Runes is being able to select whatever Superior runes are available at the time. That function didn’t change…. That functionality doesn’t care about balance changes. Again some people just want free things or items without putting in the effort to acquire them. 4 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 (edited) 6 minutes ago, BlaqueFyre.5678 said: As I stated many times before the only functionality of Legendary Runes is being able to select whatever Superior runes are available at the time. That function didn’t change…. That functionality doesn’t care about balance changes. Again some people just want free things or items without putting in the effort to acquire them. You may have said it before, and plenty of people have said the earth is flat before, your saying so means as much as their statement. Opinion is all well and good but it was the functionality of the runes at the time of purchase that is being removed. Edited July 21, 2023 by Ashen.2907 5 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaqueFyre.5678 Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 5 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said: You may have said it before, and plenty of people have said the earth is flat before, your saying so means as much as their statement. It’s so funny some peoples arguments are so bad and have to try and resort to insults… again just because some people believe the functionality of legendary runes is different than what it is doesn’t make it true… 5 1 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 Just now, BlaqueFyre.5678 said: It’s so funny some peoples arguments are so bad and have to try and resort to insults… again just because some people believe the functionality of legendary runes is different than what it is doesn’t make it true… I made no insults. I stated facts. If you are insulted by facts then you might want to reconsider your position. By definition if something is part of a product at the time of purchase then that something, that functionality, was paid for as part of the purchase. Changing something's name after it is paid for so that a business claim that it isnt part of the purchase is just trashy. If a business says, "if you buy X it will include Y and Z," and then, after collecting your money, they change it to, "X no longer includes Y because we have changed its name to A and A is sold separately," then they dont deserve my money. So, again, how is asking for something that someome paid $70 for (because it was advertised as being included in that $70 purchase) demanding anything for, "free?" Again, ANet are the ones who sold the 6th tier functionality as included in the cost of legendary relics....none of us had the power to do so. 3 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vandal.5621 Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 1 hour ago, Ashen.2907 said: If it provides a bonus that generates a level of power above what one has without it then, by definition, it is vertical progression. If my power level is at X then working to acquire a piece of gear that will augment my power level to X + 1 is vertical progression. If you want some help with this, try RIF.org You're the one who's having trouble understanding. Go play WoW for a bit and maybe you'll understand. 2 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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