June 27 Balance Follow-Ups

[Rosey.1608]

Well...it's something, I guess.  Glad to see there's finally some communication.  It's way overdue at this point, and frankly I just don't think the changes listed thus far are enough to fix the mess that was the patch on June 27th.

I mean, I'm willing to keep an open mind and hope that maybe there will be further adjustments, but that feels like I'm being way too hopeful.  The scourge stuff is a decent start.  Give us longer shades if you really care about less "spammy" gameplay, though.

And the lack of mention of engineer is very frustrating.  Scrapper feels awful to play now.  It's clunky and not fun.  The quiet mech nerfs are insulting too - seriously, guys, mech isn't breaking the game anymore.  Relax.  You can stop nerfing it and not communicating about it.  It's going to be okay if you let mech get barrier/alac on the mace autos.  That can just be disabled for if scrappers or holosmiths use it.

(The mirage stuff...I don't think it's going to really fix anything.  And what about the virtuoso block being removed from PvE for no reason?  Really...really hoping this isn't all they plan to address.)

Edited June 29, 2023 by Rosey.1608

[Sagedurk.7358]

51 minutes ago, Auras.8302 said:

am i crazy? phoenix protocol currently gives 2 seconds of alacrity on virtue trigger, not 1.5

No it doesn't. Understandable that you got the amount of alacrity mixed up, I had to hop in game and double check, even though I've mained willbender since EoD launch. The alac trigger off Phoenix Protocol is indeed 1.5 seconds. The 2 seconds you're thinking of is on Restorative Virtues

[Skyroar.2974]

2 hours ago, Cal Cohen.2358 said:

Alacrity Mirage 

Last up is a rework to how mirage grants alacrity. We want there to be a better distinction between alacrity and non-alacrity builds, which is something that can be a bit blurry at times due to Chaos Vortex granting alacrity with no investment. This alacrity is being rolled into a rework of Mirage Mantle that improves all ambush skills in various ways, which can be seen in the patch note below. 

• Mirage Mantle: This trait has been reworked. Ambush skills are improved. 

• Axes of Symmetry: Also inflicts cripple 
• Mirage Thrust: Removes a boon from struck foes 
• Ether Barrage:  Grants quickness to self (1.5 seconds)  
• Split Surge: Deals increased damage (25% in PvE, 10 in PvP/WvW) 
• Chaos Vortex: AoE Alacrity (2.5 seconds for the player, 0.5 seconds for clones) 
• Ambush Assault: Grants might to self 
• Wave of Pani😄 Also inflicts torment 

There are a few problems here.

1. Staff still relies on a grandmaster damage trait (Infinite Horizon) to improve its alacrity usage, which the mesmer community in general seems to think it's a bad idea. Staff's damage has been nerfed really hard because of this. Wouldn't it be a better idea to just put alacrity into a GM trait, competing with IH? This way, players would be able to choose between more damage or alacrity, which would be consistent with other quickness/alacrity changes being done elsewhere (example: Chrono having to choose between those boons and double phantasms).

If "Mirage Mantle" were, simply, to be a GM trait that reads "All your ambushes inflict alacrity", it would be more elegant and more enjoyable overall, wouldn't it? It would give players the freedom to apply alacrity with any weapon, and an universal choice between stronger ambushes (IH) vs. alacrity ambushes.

2. Mirage Mantle being in the same tier as Mirrored Axes means that players will have to choose between 2 axe-buffing traits. That will feel bad. Perhaps consider moving one to a different tier, so axe players can pick both.

3. Not a big fan of some of those added effects (PvE perspective).

Cripple on axe, for example, is useless in PvE. Random suggestion: add blindness to it instead, so it can synergy with dueling's GM Ineptitude trait, where blinding a foe applies additional confusion. Alternatively, blind could be put into scepter's ambush, for the same reason.

In general, I think this trait adds way too many different effects that just feel kind of random and all over the place. Some are useful for PvE, some are useless, and that feels bad. GS damage boost is generic but good. Sword's boon rip is niche and is going to do nothing to make power mirage better in PvE. Staff's alacrity is obviously good, but then Axe has a pointless buff. It all feels very uneven. You should opt for simpler or more standardized effects.

Historically, traits that add way too many different effects to way too many different skills always feel unpolished.

EDIT: And someone else's suggestion to add alacrity to trident was perfect.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Skyroar.2974

[Evo.8169]

Hi CMC,

Could you have a look at Blooming Fire (gunsaber 2) on Bladesworn. It's been bugged since February. It misses targets when standing in the hitbox.

Also, please consider reducing the ICD on Heat The Soul or increasing the quickness duration. The boon duration investment required makes the build quite weak compared to other quickness builds, especially since we are forced to fill our utility bar with Rage skills to upkeep berserk mode. Meaning we can't bring any extra group utility.

Thanks

[kidbuu.4071]

1 hour ago, Cal Cohen.2358 said:

Specter 

Alacrity specter is another build that is overperforming in terms of damage. This is partially due to the base alacrity duration being long enough to require minimal investment into concentration, but also due to the lack of a significant damage tradeoff in the grandmaster trait slot. We’ll be tuning up Strength of Shadows while bringing down some of specter’s other damage sources to bring the alacrity build more in line without negatively affecting the damage builds. 

Lastly, we’re increasing the protection duration of Shadow Sap to ensure that healing-focused specter builds have a reliable source of group protection. 

• Shadestep: Reduced alacrity duration from 2 seconds to 1.25 seconds in PvE only. 
• Strength of Shadows: This trait no longer reduces incoming damage and no longer increases the duration of torment inflicted by Rot Wallow Venom, but instead increases torment damage by 25% in addition to converting vitality to expertise. 
• Larcenous Torment: This trait no longer increases torment damage, and instead steals health from an enemy when you apply torment to them. 
• Shadow Sap: Increased protection duration from 2.5 seconds to 4 seconds in PvE only.

interested to see how this plays out (Shadow Sap: Increased protection duration from 2.5 seconds to 4 seconds in PvE only.)

This is a good adjustment (Shadestep: Reduced alacrity duration from 2 seconds to 1.25 seconds in PvE only. )

[misterman.1530]

1 hour ago, The Cashew Cab.8491 said:

You're still keeping the Shade duration at 8 seconds? Are you actually serious right now?

I agree. I don't tend to use my Scourge in PVE unless am in a meta/organized group - but that change makes absolutely no sense. What was the rationale for that 12 second decrease in duration? If they are going to make a change so drastic, at least explain what the issue is (I would assume Alacrity? Maybe?).

 

[Skyroar.2974]

53 minutes ago, mirage.8046 said:

might I suggest one final change to mirage ambushes for the upcoming mirage mantle trait? for alac mirage to exist underwater, throw alacrity into the trident's ambush when this trait is used. 

That's a good idea.

Alacrity applied to both Staff and Trident is consistent with the Chaos trait that buffs both weapons at the same time.

[Banim.8495]

Mirage Alacrity should be tied to pressing Dodge. Period. It could be on gaining Mirage Cloak instead but then you'd have to take into account the utilities that grant you Cloak, so it may or may not be a good thing.

But anyway, my point is, no clones required, no target/attacking required and not tied only to Staff. I really don't see the issue with Alacrity on dodging with no further headaches when on my Renegade I only have to take the Alacrity extension trait and just press F4. That's it! Permanent Alacrity with no target required or any arbitrary profession mechanic getting in the way other than using 20 energy. Sure, I had to invest in Concentration for it, but at least it works with no headaches. Can't say the same for Mirage where I'm restricted to Staff and my clones being able to exist.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Banim.8495

[Adonaj.7932]

1 minute ago, misterman.1530 said:

I agree. I don't tend to use my Scourge in PVE unless am in a meta/organized group - but that change makes absolutely no sense. What was the rationale for that 12 second decrease in duration? If they are going to make a change so drastic, at least explain what the issue is (I would assume Alacrity? Maybe?).

 

also idk why shade savant (big shade) in the game. if we will use 1 small shade ( they clearly tripple buffed 2 traits). So why do we even have shade savant trait? for what?

[nutri.1385]

I appreciate the fast communication and reaction. It's nice to see so many changes so quickly. I still don't get why the reaction has to come after the release and be so loud and so overwhelmingly negative for the player feedback to be heard, but hey. 

I don't understand the Scourge changes. I hope that there is some good design decision behind it, though I'm sorry to say that I doubt it. It looks like an attempt to make Scourge a support only profession, same as it happened to Tempest. Both had amazing design and concept, great damage playstyles and both were redirected towards support only. The difference is that Power Tempest is still fun to play even if it's underperforming. Scourge might be potentially buffed, but it is almost certain it will be unfun. 

Feelsbadman, but I hope some Necro experts will prove me wrong. 😞

[JadenSimic.3941]

@Cal Cohen.2358 I think the skill/trait descriptions from the upcoming July patch are live in-game already now... 😄
For example Fell Beacon on Scourge.

[Drag You Down.2615]

1 hour ago, LINKAZZATORE.8135 said:

Make druid generate celestial avatar whenever you apply protection, regeneration and resolution, fits with the theme and helps encounters where there is no aura damage (all of the new strike missions, druid is completely unusable on ht cm or kaineng)

Great idea!!! @Cal Cohen.2358 Look at this.

I was originally thought druid should access alac even outside of the CA, but your approach can make druid more viable and fun to play. This can also solve the problem of celestial energy generation. And druid does have the stable access to those boons. The generation doesn't have to be a lot, even 1 unit per application per ally will allow druid to have full energy quickly. And if it is unnecessarily quick, you can reduce the enhancement of the original energy generation per intervel. 

[Nikon.3921]

With the new Weapon Master Training change, regarding Hammer for the other Ranger specs, I think it would be better if skills 1, 2, and 4 were the "Unleashed" versions for the other Ranger specs.

 

EDIT: scratch that. I finally figured out you can change it.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Nikon.3921

[Varis.5467]

@Cal Cohen.2358 Put boon corrupt back on the Scourge. 

K.I.S.S 

[Aelin.9317]

I'd appreciate less upkeep being required on quick herald so I don't have to swap legends purely for energy. I want to be able to swap legend when I need the utility of it. Running out of energy can force a legend swap at poor times. 

[Patsoor.6425]

As a main ranger I can agree on most things said here already, pointing out the main things imo.

Giving alac should not be bound to healing skills, as a druidhealer you want to have CA up when you need it the most, when ppl take damage. Not to upkeep alac. It is very clear that nobody tested this or put many thoughts into it.
 

The adjustments (different boons from spirits, glyphs being used now) are really nice, but why use different things on the slam of spirits compared to initial cast? If you want the cc of storm spirit you have to precast it 4-5 seconds ahead?  Same with cleanse of frost, "help i need cleansing"  "yea sure just wait 5 seconds... and die, i'll use my glyph to res you when I get my CA back up again bc i needed to provide alac. woops dead. "

Upkeep of protection with 100%bd is nearly impossible without using glyphs(which you can't use for other things) and your pet f2 skill, the turtle f2 reflect can't be used when you need it...(if its not running around in narnia anyway)
The boons provided by spirit like might and protection should at least last double the time it does now.
Aegis, resolution and retaliation is fine where it is as these are powerful boons compared to the others

Dps soulbeast, I love it, but pls don't break it. the nerf it got was hard but owp was kinda busted (got axe compensated) okay back then, but why overbuff sword? bc nobody played it? And if you adjust the movement on sword 2 3, why not remove the stupid sidestep on dagger4? the evade is no problem but why not an evade and just stay put?


I really hope you take the feedback of EVERYONE serious bc we wouldn't be here otherwise.

On a side note...

It seems/feels we are heading to an era where every class can provide every boon eventually.
I get you wanted to get rid of revenant being the only alac provider and  qfb being overall quickness.
But things are getting out of control now.

Same stuff with all weapons a class can use on any spec... why? just why? wasn't a new weapon not enough? Are we really going to end up with every class being able to play any weapon?

I've been playing this game almost daily for over more than 4 years now and it's the first time I actually consider of playing other games as main. I won't stop. but kitten I don't like where this is going.
 

[Tachenon.5270]

39 minutes ago, Xainou.1502 said:

Why do I have to wait 3 weeks until you even start pulling my mains back out of the dumpster?

You can fix broken OP skills in an emergency patch, this also is gamebreaking for many of us.

Agreed. Seems like where we really need some Quickness and Alacrity is in the balance team.

[Mike.7983]

Quick Herald does need fixing, the 6 pip upkeep results in your forcing us to auto attack.  If you use any skills your at 0 and it ends to fast.  The old, facet flip least let us use dps skills on top.

[reapex.8546]

As many people have stated, "shade duration increase" will be extremely helpful.

[KingJoko.1625]

BRING BACK ARC DIVIDER

[Mewsha.3561]

Thank you for the update. I wish it was sooner, but I do appreciate the communication of the intentions going forward.

I'm happy to see Scourge, particularly DPS Scourge, hasn't been forgotten. However, the crux of the issue is sand shade uptime. It makes it so you have to be constantly spamming them. That feels awful to play and does not require skill. It's still not a good design for any class.

Druid is in the same boat, and it's good that you buffed the duration so that it's somewhat viable now, but why must Druid spam for alacrity when others don't have to do that? It's similarly an unfortunate design choice that does not feel rewarding to play. Plus the tradeoff is severe. Why must Druid sacrifice their class identity (celestial avatar) simply to provide a boon? Who would want to play Heal Alacrity Druid over Heal Alacrity Mechanist if that's the case?

This patch feels like a significant Druid nerf, and it doesn't seem like that was the goal.

[SilverHalf.4652]

Scrapper gyros were perfectly fine. They fit very nicely into a fluid, adapdable rotation, that made pressing them off cooldown less of a chore and more of a reward. The new version feels clunky in comparison, making the class completely unsatisfying compared to what it was before this change.

Alacrity mechanist's tether range is extremely low and unintuitive. Please give an indicator of whether the mech is in range, and a grace period like with the previous mechanic.

Druid still has the issue that you have to use an important healing resource to upkeep fundamental boons, which is really bad design. Firebrand doesn't have this issues with its tomes, for example, and all its skills got significantly buffed (honestly SYG and advance shouldn't have been changed), so I guess I will be playing that instead.

Both quickness deadeye and alacrity specter do way too much damage, I agree. However, I think it's sufficient to just increase the boon duration required for upkeep so that their damage is in line with other dps supports. Deadeye in particular should have higher dps than other builds, as it doesn't bring any utility or AoE. Nerfing it too much will make it essentially dead compared to builds such as chrono and firebrand, who have strong utility options, or scrapper with its AoE. Spectre on the other hand has issues with the range of its boon application (it should be applied around both the caster and the tethered ally in my opinion), and struggles in some encounters where it does not start with any shroud. It's also completely un-useable in any encounter with high damage pressure (Boneskinner).

Enough people have commented on scourge and arc divider that I don't feel the need to add anything else.

Guardian QoL changes are long overdue, please do the same for other classes!

[Deef.8236]

I appreciate the responsiveness to feedback.

I would ask that you please revert Mirage Cloak to allow dodging while CC'd. That's such a big part of what set Mirage apart from other specs. I'd much rather have the single mirage cloak in WvW again than having two... pretty ordinary dodges that unlock a skill. It's just less fun this way.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Deef.8236

[Powerfat.7294]

Giving dps scourge more damage is not going to make it any less awful to play. 8 second shades feels absolutely horrid and also completely gutted scourges ability to cleave.

Please just move alacrity to sand savant and make it only pulse from either the necro or the shade. As long as the alac trait is competing with sand savant it will not be worth taking on heal scourge, losing 10 target barrier and taking a 64% reduction to your aoe coverage is not worth it.

 

While you are at it please fix the alac on tempest and druid as well. If you want heal specs to also provide boons stop making us choose between healing grandmaster traits and the ability to provide said boons.

[Rukario.1695]

I'm on team "Remove Alacrity and Quickness". To me, it seems the best way to balance the game would be to first do this while baking it into every skill by default.

Simply reduce all skill cooldowns across the board by how much they're reduced when granted Alacrity.

As for Quickness, maybe not a 100% conversion. Maybe 25~50% of the speed would be fine with tuning.

After this, you're free to balance the classes as you will and we can finally be over this In-fighting over these two boons that have somehow become the deciding factor for everything in the game, from dev decisions to party compositions.

Having these boons available does nothing but cause class imbalance and trying to fit them into kits is just making everything worse than Core Professions back in 2012.