SotO demon leader/creator?

[Lord Korag.8439]

When I first saw the Kryptis, I considered them a random demons from the Mists.

However, the longer I watched the pictures I realized they remind me insects. I put one and one together and realized there is one demonic beeing connected to an insect theme:
the fallen god Abaddon.

Sure, he is considered dead, but still, there is a possibility that some incorporeal part of him somehow endured.
We all saw the eye in the trailer. It reminds me the plot of Sauron from lotr, surely you understand what I mean.

It would also make sense he would try to suck magic from Tyria to revive himself again, should he really still be somewhere in the Mists.

The colour theme would also match him.

Still, this is all just a speculation, they could really be just random demons spawned from the chaos of the Mists, who knows?

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

If any lore character is leading the demons its likely Menzies since hes the last of the three evil from GW1 still alive/unsealed.

[Tyson.5160]

57 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

If any lore character is leading the demons its likely Menzies since hes the last of the three evil from GW1 still alive/unsealed.

I think so too, I looked up that Menzies great sword Menzies’s Agony and there is an purple shadow eye near the hilt of the blade, similar to this Sauron eye we’ve been seeing. Coincidence? Maybe.

[Zola.6197]

Absolutely against the idea of them resurrecting Abaddon somehow. I doubt that's what we're seeing anyway, but it would be such a cheap act to pull. Very "Somehow, Palpatine returned." Abaddon was stopped in GW1. Let that be the end of it.

Menzies would be an apt divine/demonic antagonist. Maybe Kanaxai, if we really need to mine something pre-existing for this. Otherwise I'm perfectly happy for this to be a new threat we've never encountered before across either game.

[Vidit.7108]

This isn't WoW, I don't think they would ever do something like bring back a guy the players definitely killed as apart of a major story conclusion. I'm pretty sure Bobby, Peter, or Mike O said as much once before. If they did that'd be a red flag for the future of the story. "Expac 5 featuring Shiro, Scarlet, and Joko teaming up to take over the world."

Menzies is on the short list of possible characters we've never really interacted with but they're not shy about making entirely new villains, Caudecus, Bangar, Ankka, only two dragons were ever meaningfully apart of the gw1 story. 

[Kalavier.1097]

7 hours ago, Lord Korag.8439 said:

the fallen god Abaddon.

Sure, he is considered dead, but still, there is a possibility that some incorporeal part of him somehow endured.
We all saw the eye in the trailer. It reminds me the plot of Sauron from lotr, surely you understand what I mean.

 

99.9% sure they straight up said, explicitly with nothing vague about it "Abaddon is dead dead, and can't come back";

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

they've heavily hinted at being done with stories from the original game, because just like the dragon storyline, its holding the game back. they've also covered most of it with cantha, elona and kryta already. i think this is why kanaxai got a fractal instead of an expansion.

 

that said, menzies is a story that hasn't been done yet and might become a reality still.

Edited July 3, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[Eekasqueak.7850]

I'm kind of with others saying it's most likely Menzies. 

[KnightofPhoenix.3679]

Agreed that Menzies is a likely candidate now that there is no Balthazar (and other human Gods) to keep him in check. 

[Allvar.3921]

I don't think its Abbadon.
He was killed, exploded and was absorbed by Kormir, which in turn became a Godess.
And yes there were the Torment Creatures, which were technically Abbadons Minions and lokked a lot like insects, but most of his followers were Margoniter.
Also... in my opinion it would suck to recycle Abbadon. We had him in Sidequests, we heard his Story multiple times and killed him in GW1.

I'd rather have Menzies, which also has Story but we never met him, we just know he exists and that he fought his half Brother Balthazar over the Fissure of Woe.
It would expand the Universe more. 🙂

[maxwelgm.4315]

Abaddon canonically had a predecessor he took his powers from and that is indirectly hinted at (by the landscape of the Realm of Torment itself and some assets out of the playable zone in GW1) to be some sort of eldritch insectoid being. This has since then become a common motif for Realm of Torment demons/beings and is probably what the new demons allude to. There is no need to invoke Abaddon as the cause for demonic beings coming from the Realm of Torment because that place did not need Abaddon to be a source of demons before, as it was a prison in the Mists in general, not just for Abaddon, his influence - and by proxy that of his predecessor, just overtook it.

In short, the devs may be actually bringing up the old/abandoned Arachnia plot thread left in the .dat file of the original Guild Wars to never be officially touched upon. Or at the very least they might be playing around with something derived from that concept.

Edited July 3, 2023 by maxwelgm.4315

[Allvar.3921]

Oh right, I totally forgot about this whole Spider God thing, back in the day.
That would actually be quite cool!

But as far as I know it wasn't "Arachnia" not only the predecessor of Abbadon, of all the Gods?
At least far older then anny other of the original 6.

[Randulf.7614]

27 minutes ago, Allvar.3921 said:

Oh right, I totally forgot about this whole Spider God thing, back in the day.
That would actually be quite cool!

But as far as I know it wasn't "Arachnia" not only the predecessor of Abbadon, of all the Gods?
At least far older then anny other of the original 6.

Arachnia is not canon according to the devs. If she existed, I expect her essence was taken into Abaddon and was obliterated, but the lore apparently does not officially recognise her

Abaddon was also wiped out. His essence was absorbed by Kormir. It would require a massive retcon to bring him back.

Menzies seems to be more related to the Gods? There is indication he may be dead prior to gw2 from fan theorising.

I suspect we are getting someone new. It doesn’t need to be a throwback after all

 

[Allvar.3921]

Quote

Arachnia is not canon according to the devs. If she existed, I expect her essence was taken into Abaddon and was obliterated, but the lore apparently does not officially recognise her

of course we don't need a throwback at all! But its fun to theorise what it could be!

At least for me. 😄

But for the Canon Question. I don't know about the devs, but at least the old Guild Wars Wiki lists Arachnia as Canon.

Don't mean to discredit you, it's just what I found about her.

Edited July 3, 2023 by Allvar.3921

[Allvar.3921]

2 minutes ago, Allvar.3921 said:

of course we don't need a throwback at all! But its fun to theorise what it could be!

At least for me. 😄

But for the Canon Question. I don't know about the devs, but at least the old Guild Wars Wiki lists Arachnia as Canon.

Don't mean to discredit you, it's just what I found about her.

okay forget what I said. i should've read to the end. 😂

You're totally right. It's not canon. But would be nice if it were.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

14 hours ago, Vidit.7108 said:

This isn't WoW, I don't think they would ever do something like bring back a guy the players definitely killed as apart of a major story conclusion. I'm pretty sure Bobby, Peter, or Mike O said as much once before. If they did that'd be a red flag for the future of the story. "Expac 5 featuring Shiro, Scarlet, and Joko teaming up to take over the world."

Menzies is on the short list of possible characters we've never really interacted with but they're not shy about making entirely new villains, Caudecus, Bangar, Ankka, only two dragons were ever meaningfully apart of the gw1 story. 

But I want to see these 3 kick kitten. 

Imagine Joko kitten talking Shiro all day, knowing Shiro can slice him in a million pieces but not kill him. 

 

[Kalavier.1097]

2 hours ago, Allvar.3921 said:

okay forget what I said. i should've read to the end. 😂

You're totally right. It's not canon. But would be nice if it were.

She, and the other implied insect god set could return, but do not hinge on it happening.

Fun fact, in that area of realm of torment where you can walk on the massive spider corpse, you can see a spider and scorpion fighting in the skybox.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On 7/2/2023 at 2:53 PM, Lord Korag.8439 said:

Sure, he is considered dead, but still, there is a possibility that some incorporeal part of him somehow endured.

Abaddon isn't just dead. His soul and essence was absorbed into Kormir.

IMO, if it is an old lore character then the highest plausibility is Menzies. However, the highest probability given all the constant parallels between SotO and Utopia there are, is whatever "ancient returning darkness" they had planned for Utopia, which should have been brand new but possibly allied with Menzies.

On 7/2/2023 at 6:13 PM, Zola.6197 said:

Menzies would be an apt divine/demonic antagonist. Maybe Kanaxai, if we really need to mine something pre-existing for this. Otherwise I'm perfectly happy for this to be a new threat we've never encountered before across either game.

Based on the Silent Surf Fractal, who we're dealing with is Kanaxai's boss. Because of course he followed someone else. Because that's what people constantly speculated and forced onto the gw1 wiki that he had unknown allegiances simply because it was never said he didn't have any.

20 hours ago, Vidit.7108 said:

only two dragons were ever meaningfully apart of the gw1 story. 

Depends on your point of view, really. Kralkatorrik and Primordus were both visually seen, but Jormag and Primordus had active minions in EotN. Glint was retconned into a champion of Kralkatorrik, thus retroactively adding Kralkatorrik having active minions in GW1. And post-EotN, we had an NPC talking about Zhaitan indirectly added.

11 hours ago, maxwelgm.4315 said:

Abaddon canonically had a predecessor he took his powers from and that is indirectly hinted at (by the landscape of the Realm of Torment itself and some assets out of the playable zone in GW1) to be some sort of eldritch insectoid being. This has since then become a common motif for Realm of Torment demons/beings and is probably what the new demons allude to. There is no need to invoke Abaddon as the cause for demonic beings coming from the Realm of Torment because that place did not need Abaddon to be a source of demons before, as it was a prison in the Mists in general, not just for Abaddon, his influence - and by proxy that of his predecessor, just overtook it.

In short, the devs may be actually bringing up the old/abandoned Arachnia plot thread left in the .dat file of the original Guild Wars to never be officially touched upon. Or at the very least they might be playing around with something derived from that concept.

There wasn't just Arachnia, but a full group of "gods of insectoid beings". However, by all indication, they were long dead.

Though it's also possible that these "gods of insectoid beings" were the intended antagonist for Utopia, which was to deal with an ancient darkness that fought and killed the previous pantheon of the Six Gods before the current Six Gods defeated that threat.

Also, @Allvar.3921 as well, Arachnia was never once confirmed to be any god's predecessor. Abaddon was confirmed to have a predecessor he replaced, and Arachnia was talked about in the gw.dat as a dead spider goddess who's corpse is in the Realm of Torment, but that's the extent of the relation.

8 hours ago, Randulf.7614 said:

Arachnia is not canon according to the devs. If she existed, I expect her essence was taken into Abaddon and was obliterated, but the lore apparently does not officially recognise her

I don't think ArenaNet ever confirmed or denied Arachnia's canonocity. In general, I know they've said that gw.dat info has a mix of canon and scrapped ideas. But they never said "Arachnia is not canon" afaik.

Which is another way to say that Arachnia, and all other gw.dat lore as well as the lore put to asian communities but not NA/EU ones, is in the realm of psuedo canon. Neither confirmed nor denied. Schrödinger's Canon, I suppose.
Until they create new canon that confirms or denies it - like how Abaddon's chinese lore got canonized in GW2, while the Redeemed Realm was non-canonized in PoF - or just finally admits to it directly on a case by case basis.

Edited July 3, 2023 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Kalavier.1097]

10 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

 

I don't think ArenaNet ever confirmed or denied Arachnia's canonocity. In general, I know they've said that gw.dat info has a mix of canon and scrapped ideas. But they never said "Arachnia is not canon" afaik.

 

I think he was meaning it more in the "Do not say this is confirmed canon, we don't know." The dev statement is those Point of interest descriptions are non-canon until said otherwise, etc.

10 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Based on the Silent Surf Fractal, who we're dealing with is Kanaxai's boss. Because of course he followed someone else. Because that's what people constantly speculated and forced onto the gw1 wiki that he had unknown allegiances simply because it was never said he didn't have any.

 

I would be wary of using Silent Surf as information/hints about upcoming story. Sunqua Vale came out before EoD and holds basically no relevance to the plot of EoD for the most part. Twilight Oasis merely expands how a character in season 4 died and became awakened, but holds no required points of information.

There may be ties between the two, but I don't believe Anet will break their trend of having the fractals/raids not being required "reading" for the storyline. Same way I'll say talk of Deimos being related to the upcoming demons would just be something vague.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

1 hour ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

I would be wary of using Silent Surf as information/hints about upcoming story. Sunqua Vale came out before EoD and holds basically no relevance to the plot of EoD for the most part. Twilight Oasis merely expands how a character in season 4 died and became awakened, but holds no required points of information.

There may be ties between the two, but I don't believe Anet will break their trend of having the fractals/raids not being required "reading" for the storyline. Same way I'll say talk of Deimos being related to the upcoming demons would just be something vague.

• ArenaNet set up WLB/WLW/Silent Surf as being indirect allusions to the future plot. Kanaxai's redesign is very reminescent of the Tanneks Cryptids Kryptis, and it very much leaves open questions that are tied to demons. So I'm sure there will be some, even if loose, connection.
• I disagree on Sunqua Peak Fractal holding no relevance. While there's no direct relevance, the plot was very much a parallel about a lying female who leads us to deal with a grieving mother of a dead child being plagued by a black force within and tied to the elements, and only upon "killing" that black force within does the grieving mother get her final rest. Ai == Soo-Won, Ai's demon == Dragonvoid, and Lan plays both the role of Ankka and the dead Elder Dragons.

Twilight Oasis, however, was just an expansion on background of the S4E1 characters (Joko and Amala).

That said, just because the fractal ties into the new plot, doesn't mean it's "required reading". All we got is some "Mysterious Voice" that is the apparent boss of Kanaxai. If Kanaxai himself holds any value to the SotO expansion (I hope not), it'll just be in revealing that Crab Legs Deimos is his boss. Maybe his name will even be Aurkus.

[Randulf.7614]

I thought the mysterious voice was Kanaxai?

[bluecheeseplate.2753]

9 minutes ago, Randulf.7614 said:

I thought the mysterious voice was Kanaxai?

I think the Ominous Voice is Kanaxai.

Hard to tell between the two with the deep, evil demon reverb going on but the Mysterious Voice is more svelte? And he did say he's on the hunt right before he fights you too.

Edited July 4, 2023 by bluecheeseplate.2753

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

1 hour ago, Randulf.7614 said:

I thought the mysterious voice was Kanaxai?

As bluecheeseplate mentions, there's two voices: Ominous Voice and Mysterious Voice.
The Mysterious Voice tells the Ominous Voice to hurry up and return, while the Ominous Voice says there's still prey to be hunted. There's some slight back and forth banter through the duration of the fractal.
Pretty sure the Ominous Voice is Kanaxai, but I haven't directly compared and it's hard to at a glance due to the effects applied to the two voices. And annoyingly, when Kanaxai shows up rather than being "X Voice" it's "Unknown Demon" until he names himself. So it is entirely plausible that Kanaxai is neither voice but I doubt that.

Edited July 4, 2023 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Randulf.7614]

Ok. To be fair I was trying to focus on the messy lead in phase to keep everyone together so I prob didn’t notice two sep voices. I just saw a voice and then we fought Kanaxai so I made a connection 

[Kalavier.1097]

On 7/4/2023 at 7:20 AM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

• ArenaNet set up WLB/WLW/Silent Surf as being indirect allusions to the future plot. Kanaxai's redesign is very reminescent of the Tanneks Cryptids Kryptis, and it very much leaves open questions that are tied to demons. So I'm sure there will be some, even if loose, connection.
• I disagree on Sunqua Peak Fractal holding no relevance. While there's no direct relevance, the plot was very much a parallel about a lying female who leads us to deal with a grieving mother of a dead child being plagued by a black force within and tied to the elements, and only upon "killing" that black force within does the grieving mother get her final rest. Ai == Soo-Won, Ai's demon == Dragonvoid, and Lan plays both the role of Ankka and the dead Elder Dragons.

Twilight Oasis, however, was just an expansion on background of the S4E1 characters (Joko and Amala).

That said, just because the fractal ties into the new plot, doesn't mean it's "required reading". All we got is some "Mysterious Voice" that is the apparent boss of Kanaxai. If Kanaxai himself holds any value to the SotO expansion (I hope not), it'll just be in revealing that Crab Legs Deimos is his boss. Maybe his name will even be Aurkus.

I disagree on Sunqua holding relevance to anything in EoD simply because the overall plot is somehat similar.

It's only real link is a few children in Shing jea talking about the location really.

 

However, I noticed on the mini of Kanaxai (I haven't done the fractal yet myself) it looks like he has arms crossed over his chest, similar to Deimos. While I read somewhere that all the arms on Deimos were supposed to be Saul's men sacrificed to the Mursaat in that battle, it's a shared visual aspect.