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Venom rework


Carnifex.3275

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Can we have it already? It's really quite annoying if you have 2+ thieves in the squad, you are literally wasting your dps into the ether. Sometimes even having 2 thieves is annoying for commanders though, they have to always check and put them in different subs to make sure venoms arent wasted.

Edited by Carnifex.3275
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13 hours ago, Carnifex.3275 said:

Can we have it already? It's really quite annoying if you have 2+ thieves in the squad, you are literally wasting your dps into the ether. Sometimes even having 2 thieves is annoying for commanders though, they have to always check and put them in different subs to make sure venoms arent wasted.

100%. This is a rework idea I posted on it a while back.

 

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Yeah. And uncapped venoms wouldnt be crazy, it would just be the actual numbers that we have in the benchmark. So lets say solo bench is 33k. Ally bench is 39k. By uncapping venoms all thieves would be doin the 39k (assuming you apply them to 5 targets). But now we're sitting more in like a 35k~ zone (if we have more thieves in group/squad). Some venoms we apply some venoms we waste. 

Edited by Carnifex.3275
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5 minutes ago, Carnifex.3275 said:

Yeah. And uncapped venoms wouldnt be crazy, it would just be the actual numbers that we have in the benchmark. So lets say solo bench is 33k. Ally bench is 39k. By uncapping venoms all thieves would be doin the 39k (assuming you apply them to 5 targets). But now we're sitting more in like a 35k~ zone (if we have more thieves in group/squad). Some venoms we apply some venoms we waste. 

100%, the above solution shouldn't increase damage either for a single thief even if alac is applied. If I am looking at it wrong someone correct me haha.

It does allow for more condi thieves in the same subgroup which is the crux of the problem.

Edited by ZeroTheRuler.7415
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Yup. If they would uncap the venoms but nerf it, it would actually be worse than now. Let's say you're 1 thief in your sub. You're doin your 39k. If venoms would get nerfed, now even if you're the only thief in your sub you're now essentially nerfed. So the problem is just to allow more thieves in the squad, damage isnt the issue here

Edited by Carnifex.3275
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The question is: why did they have to make venoms something that shares with others if they only increase Thief dps? It's not like you are making your allies stronger, they (being close to you) make you "stronger" (actually on par with other dps builds), so why don't they just make venom self applied and buff them to always have the same damage as when you have allies around? (except the heal and the elite skill)

This would only benefit solo players and hurt no one. Am I wrong?

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7 hours ago, TheThief.8475 said:

The question is: why did they have to make venoms something that shares with others if they only increase Thief dps? It's not like you are making your allies stronger, they (being close to you) make you "stronger" (actually on par with other dps builds), so why don't they just make venom self applied and buff them to always have the same damage as when you have allies around? (except the heal and the elite skill)

This would only benefit solo players and hurt no one. Am I wrong?

In my country we have a saying: If you don't know what's it about, it's about money. In GW2, I'd risk saying - if you don't know what's it about, it's about PvP application. GW2's fundamental systems are built as a pvp game first, and sharing your venoms scales up Thief's teamfighting DPS in a way that doesn't make it unfair in +1 or dueling.

Or maybe it's just a relic, because Venoms used to be thief-only without a trait, and they were pretty worthless without said trait so it was made baseline in 2016 and nobody questioned it further. You know, like evolution and our tailbones - we can live with it, so let's not bother with it.

Edited by Szymon.5369
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14 hours ago, TheThief.8475 said:

The question is: why did they have to make venoms something that shares with others if they only increase Thief dps? It's not like you are making your allies stronger, they (being close to you) make you "stronger" (actually on par with other dps builds), so why don't they just make venom self applied and buff them to always have the same damage as when you have allies around? (except the heal and the elite skill)

This would only benefit solo players and hurt no one. Am I wrong?

Yeah i think most of us would prefer it this way, just scale up the damage and make it personal only, without sharing. But i have a feeling it would be harder to implement than to just increase the cap. 

Edited by Carnifex.3275
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  • 2 months later...
On 7/14/2023 at 6:37 AM, Carnifex.3275 said:

Yeah i think most of us would prefer it this way, just scale up the damage and make it personal only, without sharing. But i have a feeling it would be harder to implement than to just increase the cap. 

Having a skill just blatantly say "Your next several attacks will apply a total of 20 stacks of Torment" would be a bit weird, and make it more obvious how OP these skills are 😛

But let me be clear here, Venoms need some sort of rework. At the very least, they should STACK. Basilisk Venom already can stack up to 2, so this does not require any new tech. (And it can stack because it used to apply 2 stacks for a few months at one point). There's no reason for them not to stack in PvE at least. Raids, Strikes and two fractals already cleanse all buffs, including venoms when the fight starts, so no stacking there. The other two CMs don't cleanse, but they arguably should. In every other situation I don't see potential venom doublestacking to be an issue. If the lack of buff removing tech was the main reason for non-stacking then that's dealt with now and stacking should be re-evaluated.

Of course, Venoms are a bigger problem then just the stacking. They are incredibly overpowered skills, but are also being factored into Condi Thief power budgets. I don't think there's any other class that's so reliant on utility skills for their dps and nothing else. It feels pretty bad, but having them stack first as a band aid fix for stacking condi thieves in groups is first and foremost important and a rework can come later.

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37 minutes ago, Poki.8235 said:

There's no reason for them not to stack in PvE at least. Raids, Strikes and two fractals already cleanse all buffs, including venoms when the fight starts, so no stacking there. The other two CMs don't cleanse, but they arguably should. In every other situation I don't see potential venom doublestacking to be an issue. If the lack of buff removing tech was the main reason for non-stacking then that's dealt with now and stacking should be re-evaluated.

 

It's not even about the stacking/pre-buff before the fight starts. It's more about them not stacking DURING the fight. 

Edited by Carnifex.3275
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9 hours ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

why not have it work like how currently, some other specs work like stance sharing on soulbeasts? give all attacks effects of the venoms for a certain duration? instead of charges give them the "all attacks during this duration apply X condition?"

Yup, seems like i good solution too. But then idk how that would apply to allies. It would still have to have some stacks to have the same dmg.

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51 minutes ago, Carnifex.3275 said:

Yup, seems like i good solution too. But then idk how that would apply to allies. It would still have to have some stacks to have the same dmg.

Nah. Not what I mean. Stances work for duration and share to allies. Venom would too, the venom "sharing" would only have a duration of the sharing "aura" for maybe 3s tops but they would last a decent amount of time on you and allies.

 

Believe it or not I spoke to a dev in game years and years ago to make venom use our stats instead of allies. I got this 👍

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Maybe an implementation similar to Signet of Vampirism would work? Venom skills could cause your next attack to mark an enemy with X stacks of venom; 1 stack is procced each time the enemy is struck by players. That way it maintains the integrity of the current skill, but can still be used without a full party. While we're at it, Leeching Venoms needs fixing. Still scales with ally healing power instead of your own. I need my specter venom heal fantasy ❤️ 

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2 hours ago, Micah.3789 said:

Maybe an implementation similar to Signet of Vampirism would work? Venom skills could cause your next attack to mark an enemy with X stacks of venom; 1 stack is procced each time the enemy is struck by players. That way it maintains the integrity of the current skill, but can still be used without a full party. While we're at it, Leeching Venoms needs fixing. Still scales with ally healing power instead of your own. I need my specter venom heal fantasy ❤️ 

I like the stance share method option better.

 

User/owners pops a venom, gets 5 allies process with it for 5s each. During the 5s on each ally, all hits apply the venom. Would be NO ICD between attacks so the faster u can land attacks and hits the better.

 

Imagine rapid firing/unloading/dual axe ranger/100b war

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You guys realize that changing from stacks to duration would massively increase the damage variance? Specter doesn't have any good multihit attacks so the damage would likely plummet, whereas D/D condi builds would skyrocket? I don't think that's going to be that great of an implementation for this class.

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14 hours ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

Nah. Not what I mean. Stances work for duration and share to allies. Venom would too, the venom "sharing" would only have a duration of the sharing "aura" for maybe 3s tops but they would last a decent amount of time on you and allies.

 

Believe it or not I spoke to a dev in game years and years ago to make venom use our stats instead of allies. I got this 👍

Hmm sure yeah also sounds good. Or just make them personal and thats it, without any sharing. Scale them up to have the same dmg as sharing to allies but just make it personal dps boost and ez. 

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