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WvW Metrics are wrong


MarkBecks.6453

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I do not think the server capacity is correct as per the transfer link when logging in. We have a population of very high, linked to a medium server, playing against a full server unlinked, and a very high server linked to a high server. So when you login, no matter time of day, you are playing a 30-50 man zerg who are scoring 8000 points every 2 hours compared to the 2 and 3k of the other servers. How is this even possible, and not only that, we are last in the MU, and have good players, so are the servers being opened to more players, because logically, this cannot work, its impossible in a normal balanced environment, or are some servers being favored with extra players, hence the lag this week, because it's been very bad, with multiple dc's in prime time which I hardly get on my 100meg link.

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B r o

This is not a RoF thread is it ?

If it IS .

It is not about metrics/population , it's about rof having worse quality players and opponents having more quality players.

And since discord community doesn't play cause no pugs join to help, rof ends up with all the farmable pve tags Vs players who actually press buttons and use braincells.

This is a "get gud scrub" issue. If we talking bout RoF.

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I do not name servers on forums, as that is against the policies of Anet, but going from full server to very high 3 days after the MU started is very suspicious. I agree that skills do make a difference, but when you have the same number of players on each server, but you still getting outnumbered buff, servers saying 5 ques when there is none, I would seriously look at the system and what is happening. I am trying to bring attention to ongoing issues, the results don't make any difference in my life, but something is amiss. 

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49 minutes ago, MarkBecks.6453 said:

I do not name servers on forums, as that is against the policies of Anet, but going from full server to very high 3 days after the MU started is very suspicious. I agree that skills do make a difference, but when you have the same number of players on each server, but you still getting outnumbered buff, servers saying 5 ques when there is none, I would seriously look at the system and what is happening. I am trying to bring attention to ongoing issues, the results don't make any difference in my life, but something is amiss. 

Queues aren't always queues, we've had this issue for some time now indeed and I think the outnumbered buff is updated every 5 mins. So that's not exactly real-time.

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21 hours ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

Queues aren't always queues, we've had this issue for some time now indeed and I think the outnumbered buff is updated every 5 mins. So that's not exactly real-time.

could be the old feature (bug) sometimes server start queing before server hits max capacity, funny how sometimes servers can also exceed max capactiy xD while the other server will be capped.

The worse scenario ive seen was with arround 16 players on tag plus another 10ish stragling in the map on a reset night and map went on queue mode, we manage to defeat 2 blobs of enemy servers IDK how.. it  was something like 2014/15, i only have seen it more a coupple of times till 2020.

Edited by Aeolus.3615
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  • 3 weeks later...

I think the "ongoing issue" that really matters is that balance has never been an objective. You aren't paying transfer fees if everything is balanced, son. Just come over to Kaineng. Home of the fighting outmanned buff. The Americans from Team USA will keep you safe. 

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On 7/14/2023 at 5:30 PM, MarkBecks.6453 said:

I do not name servers on forums, as that is against the policies of Anet, but going from full server to very high 3 days after the MU started is very suspicious. I agree that skills do make a difference, but when you have the same number of players on each server, but you still getting outnumbered buff, servers saying 5 ques when there is none, I would seriously look at the system and what is happening. I am trying to bring attention to ongoing issues, the results don't make any difference in my life, but something is amiss. 

 

Ques is fake to the core, there is dozen of afk'ers running into walls almost whole day, fow link on some matches was notorious for this, i dont want to start conspiracy but other servs might just taken "overpopulated cloud" pop control into their own hands, if not that then i dont understand why someone would numlock into a corner all day every day with participation decay mechanics at hand.

There is some strange things with outnumbered boon thingy, maybe once a day i end up seeing it on some people at garrison or spawn while i myself have no such boon, never had it while there is que tho.

Que number itself often fake in ui, it can say "15" but as u click it u instantly get in, its well known "feature", might be related to squads switching servers and ui taking time to update or smtg, idk 🤷‍♀️ 

 

In current match we often have que's and no players in sight, no afk'ers too, so idk maybe a blobs hidding somewhere at bottom of the lake or smtg and doing rp'ing while ignoring /m.

Inb4 that chuba guy responds with something like "your lads just scout wrong, blob is actually caping towers those 5 noobs getting camped at spawn and whole map one color without swords is just skill issue"

...

I play wvw, i like it, mode have many problems but this que and pop one is most annoying and game breaking. 

Nothing be fixed about it tho it just gonna get worse with each patch, just accept it and continue the intellectual masochism or stop playing this game mode.

 

 

Edit: someone mentioned skill differences(dont know how to double quote in these forums just read the thread) between servers, and issa a thing, quality of players differs and u cant fix it or balance it, example from current match:

PS early morning blobs is massive, they doing raids in numbers, yesterday we managed to keep the garrison and farm them while having outnumbered boon, our squad was of 6 people, 6, we died a lot, run from spawn a lot, it was hard, i guess pride or smtg wasnt letting them to just switch maps, so they kept building golems and cats, eventually after few hours our numbers grew into organized 20 people squad and they stop comming.

I feel bad for greens, but there is always one server in matchup that cant fight, punching bags that focus on ppt.

 

Edited by Triptaminas.4789
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35 minutes ago, Triptaminas.4789 said:

There is some strange things with outnumbered boon thingy, maybe once a day i end up seeing it on some people at garrison or spawn while i myself have no such boon, never had it while there is que tho

outnumbered effect is applied/removed with the tick, if you join an outnumbered map you wont get the effect until the next tick, while people already on the map will still have the effect. could that be what you observing?

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2 minutes ago, bq pd.2148 said:

outnumbered effect is applied/removed with the tick, if you join an outnumbered map you wont get the effect until the next tick, while people already on the map will still have the effect. could that be what you observing?

Yeah i know that.. i cant say for sure because honestly i cant recall as i never put too much thought about it until i read the post in this thread about it.

Just implied its some visual noise, maybe leftover that isnt sanitized from person changing maps in which he was outnumbered or smtg, i mean game have lot of these small thingies and bugs

I gonna make some videos from nvidia shadowplay when i encounter this again, gonna do ones for que stuff too. 

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It feels like this thread suffers a bit from different things that exist on multiple planes in the system getting blurred, so as a reminder: (also, note that this is pieced together from split and often intentionally vague information drip-fed over 11 years - so if you know something better, feel free to correct me; if you think different or draw other conclusions then keep that to yourself - this is pieced together from various devposts over the years, I'm mainly looking to pass it on, I'm not trying to argue it or feel strongly about it).

Relinks are done every 8 weeks on the last friday of uneven months

  • Very simply put: Relinks tend to pair full and medium servers as well as high and very high servers. Three servers in EU are unlinked.
  • The system is rather straight forward simply pairing the servers best-as based on their populations.
  • The main drawback of relinks is that people can - and usually purposely do - move after relinks. This turns server pairs into something different more or less immidiately after the relink. Since medium servers are the cheapest to move to the full+medium pairs tend to become most overblown. Often it turns them into a full+very high monster within days.

Populations are updated weekly, on mondays, afaik

  • Much of the data we have on this is vague, may have been subject to change over the years and some of the information we have collides, however...
  • The largest server is used as a benchmark for the region
  • The cap is adjusted manually based on the benchmarks (and rarely)
  • The current soft caps are in the vicinity of 2000-2500 active population
  • Active population is derived from a threshold of play hours
  • The population caps both have a soft cap and a hard cap (servers can go a shallow full and a deep full; transfers end but active population can grow)
  • So, yes, two full servers can be quite inequally full - while all other servers can be similar in name and different, but then within a seemingly smaller span
  • The main drawback of the population system is that it makes it highly inefficient to play the game actively but casually - close to the threshold - plus that is GW2's target audience (casually, socially active players). So your typical GW2 player is a rather bad player to have on your WvW server. It is better to have people who fall under the cap or push well above it in terms of activity. This is one of the main reasons whole groups of players continously transfer.
  • It should also be noted that ArenaNet's decision to clap delete-to-transfer alts have littered the WvW servers with throw-away alts that can cause very large leaps in accounts going from inactive to active - or that make many active players maintain active population status on multiple servers at once: Being useful on some servers and problematic on other. That leads to data which may look superficially positive for the developer but leads to deeper problems for both the game and its development since it is duplicate data, volatile data and balance-imposing mass.

Maps are hardcapped and have been manually adjusted down twice, afaik

  • It may be adjusted down to reflect population sizes
  • It may be adjusted down to deal with performance issues (or server costs)
  • Today I'd hazard a guess at the cap being between 60 and 75
  • Without any attempt at testing it beyond simple sampling, it feels to me like it is much harder now to sneak even a 5-man party onto a map with a 50-man squad
  • That is compared to a couple of years ago between the first clearly announced size adjustments and what has come after, when squads still had extra-squad tags, etc.
  • What makes it hard to determine is also the main drawback of the map system: Players stowed away on the map with little impact (either being AFK; or simply not really doing things that makes other players aware of them - eg., someone doing a jumping puzzle, exploring or just roaming some low-trafficked part of the map). These things make one side feel much smaller than other sides at times, without it necessarily being true. This system could clearly benefit from development that made things both more transparent and more flexible; development which has been seen in other modes of this game and development that has taken time and inspiration from this mode in the game; with little reciprocity (ie., time was taken off Alliances to develop WvW-queues for PvE; but WvW still lacks multi-instancing, megaservers (Alliances) and LFG-intergration. Much of which we have been waiting for since the game came out and still do.
  • So to put it in other words: The main issue here is that WvW isn't given fair shakes with development. Not in the past and not recently. Well, I guess that problem is permeating all these planes. Some "map issues" are rather easy to fix, if they want to.

This is the system, take it or leave it, learn it, use it.

The change to this system is Alliances.

The change towards positive WvW development requires an internal change within ArenaNet. That is something they have promised multiple times but at every turn of the corner seem to have done nothing about. The first step in that change is transparency (and communication). Alliances being promised multiple times over is just a reflection of that. So is even the mere promises of communication that also seem to constantly delay when it comes to WvW.

Edited by subversiontwo.7501
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On 7/12/2023 at 11:02 PM, MarkBecks.6453 said:

I do not think the server capacity is correct as per the transfer link when logging in. We have a population of very high, linked to a medium server, playing against a full server unlinked, and a very high server linked to a high server. So when you login, no matter time of day, you are playing a 30-50 man zerg who are scoring 8000 points every 2 hours compared to the 2 and 3k of the other servers. How is this even possible, and not only that, we are last in the MU, and have good players, so are the servers being opened to more players, because logically, this cannot work, its impossible in a normal balanced environment, or are some servers being favored with extra players, hence the lag this week, because it's been very bad, with multiple dc's in prime time which I hardly get on my 100meg link.

I agree 100%, it is totallly broken. 

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