Ele Changes For July 18th -- Ele Fixed -- Move On -- Start New Thread For New Ele Suggestions

[Dorsai.1458]

Clearly an attempt by biased devs to show "nerfs" without really nerfing the core problem of signet catas.  Nerfing the duration of buffs that come with auras is nothing when aura access is so easy.  I don't think enemies play with a stop watch to time all of your internal ICDs you have going on with every aura application.  Even if you try to time it, they can just push another signet for instant reapplication.

Elems should not have such easy access to stab except for the trait that gives it to them when to attune to earth.  Stop handing out stab like it was candy....or put damage back into CC skills cause all the passive stab application in this game.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Just now, Dorsai.1458 said:

or put damage back into CC skills cause all the passive stab application in this game.

This is an interesting point to be made. Never thought of it like that.

[Vaga.5174]

Cata still broken.

[coro.3176]

Even post nerf, compare: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Flamestrike to https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fragmentation_Shot . (ignore difference in cast time. They're actually bout the same.)

I cry.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

1 minute ago, coro.3176 said:

Even post nerf, compare: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Flamestrike to https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fragmentation_Shot . (ignore difference in cast time. They're actually bout the same.)

I cry.

Except Frag Shot is a janky low damage bleed that doesn't stack might that is a projectile vs. 200% anti-projectile uptime from all the auras being thrown around.

[Marxx.5021]

Who would have expected that cmc is willing to balance catalyst. Same broken s h i t.

Edited July 18, 2023 by Marxx.5021

[apharma.3741]

37 minutes ago, Vinny.7260 said:

It's like having rocks in a lawn and mowing around the rocks instead of removing them... It just makes things more difficult.

Catalyst was already getting a notoriety streak of having too many auras.

WiS without auras and stronger activation is the answer... How do they keep dodging the source of the issue. WiS in its current state is not a fun or interactive or clever trait. It's Elemental Epitome but for signets.

This is spot on. Had they addressed Written in Stone they probably wouldn't have had to touch as many skills and certainly not made staunch auras into the meme 1s stab. Ah well I guess we can expect a gutted ele at the hands of frothing forum mains claiming it's never enough until they tackle the root cause Written in Stone and catalyst as a concept.

[Nepster.4275]

We actually went into the "it's so pathetic it's funny" territory

Who in the balance team thought(don't need to answer, I know) that cata has it's problems with things they tried to fix 

Atleast a million times, in a minimum of 100 topics by a lot of players it was pointed out that the main problem is with the Auras, Projectile deny, offensive and defensive boons, too much synergy in traits with damage reductions

What did they do?

Nerf skills that are used as fillers, cata was overcapping on might almost anyway, so now they are only running around with constant 20 might instead of 25, and can upkeep only 70% stab uptime

What a nerf

But well, atleast Virtuoso got a 50% dmg buff on F4, it hits for 150 instead of 100

[Kuma.1503]

These nerfs do a lot more to nerf cata than you think. I'll explain how this impacts the two overperforming Cata builds. Fresh Air and Signet Condi Cata. 

Staunch Auras - Stability uptime reduced by 50% (2 seconds --> 1 second per Aura). 

This is a no-brainer. Ele's stab uptime is going way down. You will have windows to lock down this build and kill it now. A much needed change because this was a level of safety cata did not need. 

Rock Solid was mentioned as a method to return some stability uptime, but most eles don't run this trait anyway. They prefer Earthen Blessing instead because it reduces chill and immob uptime. Two condis that naturally counter ele. Even if they make that trade-off and take this trait, they will not get close to the amount of stab uptime they had before. 

Harmonious Conduit is a Tempest trait. Ele may be broken, but it can't run two elite specs. Unless there's some exploit I'm not aware of. 

Good nerf. 

 

Spectacular Sphere - Might stacks reduced by 80% (5 seconds --> 1 second) + Deploy Jade sphere might reduction. 

This one is also massive, especially in conjunction with the other nerfs I will discuss later. Cata will be doing a lot less damage now. Full stop. These were Cata's Instant sources of burstable might that they could apply immediately upon entering fire attunemnt. The point where they do the majority of their bursting. Instead of getting an instant 6 might when dropping their sphere they get 2. (7 with transmute fire. down from 12)

They will also not be sitting on these stacks for as long, which impacts their damage when leaving fire attunement. They could have gone harder and reduced the might duration on the sphere to 2 seconds so that the stacks fall off quicker and give players more of a breather after they've survived the initial burst, but this is a good place to start. 

They can stil blast fire fields to gain might stacks, but the majority of their stacks will be coming from pyromancer's puissance. Signet Cata will still pump might with fire auto 1 spam, but between the burning reduction on the auto, and the might nerfs it'll take longer for their damage to ramp up to dangerous levels since that instant pressure when entering fire is much weaker. 

Fresh Air Cata doesn't run Pyromancer's puissance so it will be a lot weaker this patch. 

 

Shatterstone Nerf - Lol. 

Water trident/ Hurl Coefficient nerf - This on the other hand does matter quite a bit. Water trident chunks when it hits with a chilled foe with high might stacks. Even moreso when you consider that they usually have vuln on them as well. 

Hurl also does a good bit of damage even if it isn't as flashy as Dragon's Tooth or Phoenix, these skills contributed to their ability to keep pressure on you when dropping fire attunement. Between this and the might nerfs, Cata, especially Fresh Air Cata, will be doing a lot less damage once they did before. 

 

 

The takeaway: 

Fresh Air cata does a lot less damage, is easier to lock down, and you can counterpressure them more safely when they leave fire attunemnt. This build will probably still be good, but it went from immortal god emperor to actually mortal. They'll have to play more careful around their burst windows and be more mindful of enemy lock down. 

Signet Cata isn't impacted as much, but will also be doing less damage, and will be easier to lock down than before. Major players here are the staunch aura nerfs and might nerfs, and burning redution on fire autos. Their hybrid damage is also toned down a bit. 

 

Cata will definitely still be strong post nerf, but it might have some actual counters now this patch. Instead of, y'know. Countering every non-ele build in existance. I reccomend you start dusting off your condi reapers. 

Edited July 18, 2023 by Kuma.1503

[Cuks.8241]

They will again nerf everything else but the problem and after 1 year the one correct adjustment will come that will burry the spec completely. 

[coro.3176]

My paranoid balance theory is that once someone suggests a change publicly (eg. on the forums), the devs are not allowed to implement it for legal reasons.

By suggesting reasonable fixes, we actually cause this kind of thing.

[Greyrat.2378]

still busted (cata)

 

 

edit: won a game against team with 2x cata and duoQ on top of that, homie still complained about unfair matchmaking lmao 🥰

Edited July 19, 2023 by Greyrat.2378

[Kuma.1503]

If more nerfs are needed, I suggest they should pull a scourge and nerf pyromancer's puissance when Cata is selected. Give it a 3 second ICD so you cant stack might with fire autos. 

Reduce might duration on Fire sphere to 2 seconds so they hurt a lot less outside of fire attunement. 

These would hit cata specifically and avoid touching core. Cata will become a lot less explosive regardless of what build they take. 

 

It would have been better to go harder on the catalyst might without touching scepter. This way we nerf cata even harder without needing to touch core. But... these nerfs do help. 

Edited July 18, 2023 by Kuma.1503

[RedAvenged.5217]

2 hours ago, Downstate.4697 said:

Trevor you are plain wrong. These changes will do the trick. If anything ele was over nerfed

Untamed- a build most people would say is way above average, has gotten multiple buffs.

it will still be a 100-0 losing match up into cata even if their is a decent skill gap

[N A T E.3108]

#FIRECMC

[Eurantien.4632]

12 minutes ago, RedAvenged.5217 said:

Untamed- a build most people would say is way above average, has gotten multiple buffs.

it will still be a 100-0 losing match up into cata even if their is a decent skill gap

Untamed beats cata.

WTF are people talking about!?


The patch has been out for like 2 hours. Y'all just jumping to conclusions. Sig cata wasn't even that good prepatch, and it got nerfed. Chill out lmao.

Edited July 18, 2023 by Eurantien.4632

[Aaron.1294]

Forums are a joke. Guys I advice everyone to not listen to ppl here. Lots of ppl are insanely bias about their classes and can't see needs/buffs, most of them want to kill Classes entirely so broken things can stay on their Mains. Game is doomed

Edited July 18, 2023 by Aaron.1294

[RedAvenged.5217]

14 minutes ago, Eurantien.4632 said:

Untamed beats cata.

WTF are people talking about!?


The patch has been out for like 2 hours. Y'all just jumping to conclusions. Sig cata wasn't even that good prepatch, and it got nerfed. Chill out lmao.

Never seen one beat it and have only occasionally win myself- have to run or kite like crazy

[Downstate.4697]

2 minutes ago, RedAvenged.5217 said:

Never seen one beat it and have only occasionally win myself- have to run or kite like crazy

I guess my gripe with everyone right now is they formed opinions based on drazeh and Boyce duels. No one has given the patch a reasonable amount of time to see how this actually plays out in team play.

I do feel that pyromancer puissance might be enabling the build a lot though.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

39 minutes ago, Aaron.1294 said:

Forums are a joke. Guys I advice everyone to not listen to ppl here. Lots of ppl are insanely bias about their classes and can't see needs/buffs, most of them want to kill Classes entirely so broken things can stay on their Mains. Game is doomed

Point the things you mention out. Just in general. Not a demand.

Edited July 18, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Dorsai.1458]

1 hour ago, Kuma.1503 said:

These nerfs do a lot more to nerf cata than you think. I'll explain how this impacts the two overperforming Cata builds. Fresh Air and Signet Condi Cata. 

Staunch Auras - Stability uptime reduced by 50% (2 seconds --> 1 second per Aura). 

This is a no-brainer. Ele's stab uptime is going way down. You will have windows to lock down this build and kill it now. A much needed change because this was a level of safety cata did not need. 

Rock Solid was mentioned as a method to return some stability uptime, but most eles don't run this trait anyway. They prefer Earthen Blessing instead because it reduces chill and immob uptime. Two condis that naturally counter ele. Even if they make that trade-off and take this trait, they will not get close to the amount of stab uptime they had before. 

Harmonious Conduit is a Tempest trait. Ele may be broken, but it can't run two elite specs. Unless there's some exploit I'm not aware of. 

Good nerf. 

 

Spectacular Sphere - Might stacks reduced by 80% (5 seconds --> 1 second) + Deploy Jade sphere might reduction. 

This one is also massive, especially in conjunction with the other nerfs I will discuss later. Cata will be doing a lot less damage now. Full stop. These were Cata's Instant sources of burstable might that they could apply immediately upon entering fire attunemnt. The point where they do the majority of their bursting. Instead of getting an instant 6 might when dropping their sphere they get 2. (7 with transmute fire. down from 12)

They will also not be sitting on these stacks for as long, which impacts their damage when leaving fire attunement. They could have gone harder and reduced the might duration on the sphere to 2 seconds so that the stacks fall off quicker and give players more of a breather after they've survived the initial burst, but this is a good place to start. 

They can stil blast fire fields to gain might stacks, but the majority of their stacks will be coming from pyromancer's puissance. Signet Cata will still pump might with fire auto 1 spam, but between the burning reduction on the auto, and the might nerfs it'll take longer for their damage to ramp up to dangerous levels since that instant pressure when entering fire is much weaker. 

Fresh Air Cata doesn't run Pyromancer's puissance so it will be a lot weaker this patch. 

 

Shatterstone Nerf - Lol. 

Water trident/ Hurl Coefficient nerf - This on the other hand does matter quite a bit. Water trident chunks when it hits with a chilled foe with high might stacks. Even moreso when you consider that they usually have vuln on them as well. 

Hurl also does a good bit of damage even if it isn't as flashy as Dragon's Tooth or Phoenix, these skills contributed to their ability to keep pressure on you when dropping fire attunement. Between this and the might nerfs, Cata, especially Fresh Air Cata, will be doing a lot less damage once they did before. 

 

 

The takeaway: 

Fresh Air cata does a lot less damage, is easier to lock down, and you can counterpressure them more safely when they leave fire attunemnt. This build will probably still be good, but it went from immortal god emperor to actually mortal. They'll have to play more careful around their burst windows and be more mindful of enemy lock down. 

Signet Cata isn't impacted as much, but will also be doing less damage, and will be easier to lock down than before. Major players here are the staunch aura nerfs and might nerfs, and burning redution on fire autos. Their hybrid damage is also toned down a bit. 

 

Cata will definitely still be strong post nerf, but it might have some actual counters now this patch. Instead of, y'know. Countering every non-ele build in existance. I reccomend you start dusting off your condi reapers. 

Have you seen Drazeh's stream today?  Sig Cata is still OP as hell and not getting "locked down".  How do you lock down anything that has aura access at will (even when CCed)?  Exactly intended.  I'm sure the devs don't like getting "locked down" as a cloth class and made sure to take the path of least resistance when addressing the pissed PVP players complaints.  

When people were whining like hell about bladesworn draggon trigger, they didn't reduce stab time ...they removed it completely.  Get rid of stab for elems except for earth line trait.  Let them be eligible to get "locked down" and not have to rely on a 1 sec window to actually cc them.

[Crackz.5278]

The problem is that anet does not set a limit of 2 equal classes per game. The nerfs or buffs that it gives to the classes will be useless if the same class is repeated 4 or 5 times in each game.

[Flowki.7194]

30 minutes ago, Dorsai.1458 said:

Have you seen Drazeh's stream today?  Sig Cata is still OP as hell and not getting "locked down".  How do you lock down anything that has aura access at will (even when CCed)?  Exactly intended.  I'm sure the devs don't like getting "locked down" as a cloth class and made sure to take the path of least resistance when addressing the pissed PVP players complaints.  

When people were whining like hell about bladesworn draggon trigger, they didn't reduce stab time ...they removed it completely.  Get rid of stab for elems except for earth line trait.  Let them be eligible to get "locked down" and not have to rely on a 1 sec window to actually cc them.

Please go play some cata with no stability before you talk such nonsense, as if bladesworn and cata are remotely comparable in mitigation mechancis.

 

I guess they should also remove the stability trait for tempest overload? how dare they not get cc'd by random AOE spam while trying to support their team with an ability that turns them into moving target practice..

Edited July 18, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Stallic.2397]

Removing stab from cata would destroy the class. That's not a constructive nerf 

[bethekey.8314]

2 hours ago, Dorsai.1458 said:

all the passive stab application in this game

Engis: You guys have stab?

1 hour ago, Eurantien.4632 said:

The patch has been out for like 2 hours. Y'all just jumping to conclusions. Sig cata wasn't even that good prepatch

1 hour ago, Downstate.4697 said:

I guess my gripe with everyone right now is they formed opinions based on drazeh and Boyce duels. No one has given the patch a reasonable amount of time to see how this actually plays out in team play.

Sure, new builds might evolve over time to specifically counter Cata/Ele. However, the Cata is the one who had to adjust most to these changes, not the builds facing it. The established builds and those who play them know their windows of opportunity, safe rotations etc. Despite Cata having more to adjust, optimize etc. it still beat established top-tier specs like Untamed fresh out of the patch.

That doesn't bode well. Especially after what, the greater part of a year being 5 Ele optimal teams? In recent memory, I don't remember another class being this dominant, for this long.

Also lol @ Sig Cata not being good prepatch. If you're saying this, you don't know how unfair it is from the perspective of weaker classes.

Edited July 18, 2023 by bethekey.8314