Ele Changes For July 18th -- Ele Fixed -- Move On -- Start New Thread For New Ele Suggestions

[Kuma.1503]

29 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

Staunch Auras - nope, the problem is the amount of auras and the frequency of application, catalyst simply shouldn't be getting an aura based on their attunement for doing any combo finisher in any field. Hammer should have been reworked so grand finale gave you an aura when you hit with 2 or more projectiles. Then increase staunch aura stab to 2-3s. This means it's reliable, usable, readable and predictable stability on all weapons which is what the game needs. The only other ways to get lots of stability would be earth dagger 3 through fire, ice, light and chaos fields or use staff with water 4, not exactly an OP combo.

Spectacular sphere - It's a nerf, that's for sure but I think it would have been better if spectacular sphere gave the same boon every attunement, resistance for 2s. The amount of different kinds of boons is a problem in it's own way as it makes strips and corrupts less able to target what they need as well as causing interaction issues like elemental attunement with catalyst and spectacular spheres giving some crazy boon uptime.

Agreed with the rest, Hurl is in general just a grossly bloated skill set, toughness, barrier, resistance and then good damage, what was CMC smoking.

What the biggest takeaway really is, where the balance is heading, spam is fine and they're going to reduce the duration to 1-2s, which is exactly the problem this game found itself in when it was dying in PoF. Some people liked it, some didn't but I think it's a lot more skillful and rewarding timing a big effect or avoiding it than spamming it on short cool downs in every fight. I remember the failing shadow was wanting to keep ranger counterattack (the GS block) on a 15s CD but reduce the duration to make it "more skillful" but really what it would do is allow rangers to block more important attacks as it would still be a 1.5s block and this is unfortunately where CMC seems to want to go.

Writing is on the wall, ditch this sorry excuse for PvP or even the game.

I'm with you on the first point. 

I'd prefer one or two effects that the opponent can interact with.

Vs a slew of weak spammable effects that just... happen for doing something you were already doing. 

A nerf that simultaneously makes the game more interesting and interactive? Yes pls. 

 

Spectacular Sphere's change... It'll certainly tone down their boon spam and weaken their synergy with https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bountiful_Power. But it also makes the trait far less interesting by taking away some of the decision making of which sphere to drop. It brings down cata's power, which is good. But it's a painfully boring nerf that I can't get behind from a design perspective. 

This nerf would dumb down the spec and make the Cata's proffesion mechanic, which is already lacking in gameplay as is, that much less interesting. 

I'd rather find a different way to tone down the spec. 

 

 

Edited July 19, 2023 by Kuma.1503

[RaveOnYou.2819]

1 hour ago, apharma.3741 said:

Staunch Auras - nope, the problem is the amount of auras and the frequency of application, catalyst simply shouldn't be getting an aura based on their attunement for doing any combo finisher in any field. Hammer should have been reworked so grand finale gave you an aura when you hit with 2 or more projectiles. Then increase staunch aura stab to 2-3s. This means it's reliable, usable, readable and predictable stability on all weapons which is what the game needs. The only other ways to get lots of stability would be earth dagger 3 through fire, ice, light and chaos fields or use staff with water 4, not exactly an OP combo.

Spectacular sphere - It's a nerf, that's for sure but I think it would have been better if spectacular sphere gave the same boon every attunement, resistance for 2s. The amount of different kinds of boons is a problem in it's own way as it makes strips and corrupts less able to target what they need as well as causing interaction issues like elemental attunement with catalyst and spectacular spheres giving some crazy boon uptime.

Agreed with the rest, Hurl is in general just a grossly bloated skill set, toughness, barrier, resistance and then good damage, what was CMC smoking.

What the biggest takeaway really is, where the balance is heading, spam is fine and they're going to reduce the duration to 1-2s, which is exactly the problem this game found itself in when it was dying in PoF. Some people liked it, some didn't but I think it's a lot more skillful and rewarding timing a big effect or avoiding it than spamming it on short cool downs in every fight. I remember the failing shadow was wanting to keep ranger counterattack (the GS block) on a 15s CD but reduce the duration to make it "more skillful" but really what it would do is allow rangers to block more important attacks as it would still be a 1.5s block and this is unfortunately where CMC seems to want to go.

Writing is on the wall, ditch this sorry excuse for PvP or even the game.

you are simply misdirecting the situation. catalyst has already 10 icd to get 1 stack stability with the combo finishers.

 

the problem is signets which gives you free stability. delete this signet kitten and dont touch combo finishing aura gain, its the only class specific thing to catalyst.

[phokus.8934]

This is all a conspiracy.  Miaz makes a video with another expose and then CMC releases this update with no relevant Cata nerfs so all of the talks remain on the update.

[apharma.3741]

2 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

I'm with you on the first point. 

I'd prefer one or two effects that the opponent can interact with.

Vs a slew of weak spammable effects that just... happen for doing something you were already doing. 

 

Spectacular Sphere's change... It'll certainly tone down their boon spam and weaken their synergy with https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bountiful_Power. But it also makes the trait far less interesting by taking away some of the decision making of which sphere to drop. It brings down cata's power, which is good. But it's a painfully boring nerf that I can't get behind from a design perspective. 

I'd rather tone down the uptime of the more problematic boons like might even further if need be. 

I get you about Spectacular Sphere's and it becoming a boring trait but my main concern is that you're already getting good boons from the sphere's as well as the combo fields which are already strong enough and require thought to use properly. The might alone isn't the only problem, perma prot, perma regen, vigor, resolution and combine this with elementalists boon generation it creates a lot of high boon uptime with a lot of good boons.

A boon like resistance would be a good boon and a singular boon is much easier to balance even if it's a lot more boring. Something simply being good is enough without it lighting the world (and PvP) on fire.

[Dreams.3128]

15 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

-snip-

Nice, but with gutting FA Cata, they legit made it so FA cannot be used on anything else. They literally killed the one power build Ele relied on since Weaver doesn't have passive damage traits that actually matter (obviously because they don't need it since they are supposed to be the 'sustain' spec) and Core Ele..is..well it's core. They just made Ele a whole condi class when NO ONE asked for that. 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

2 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Stab is something you build your next move on; I press X skill IF I have the stab to complete the cast. Having it on some ICD -and thus making it entirely unreliable- is honestly worse IMHO

Probably!

But, you can work around that with one of those token tiles, like ranger gets for opening strike. "Your next aura grants stab for x seconds or so"

[apharma.3741]

14 minutes ago, RaveOnYou.2819 said:

you are simply misdirecting the situation. catalyst has already 10 icd to get 1 stack stability with the combo finishers.

 

the problem is signets which gives you free stability. delete this signet kitten and dont touch combo finishing aura gain, its the only class specific thing to catalyst.

You're acting like aura spam isn't a problem, it's made worse by the signet trait but it is also annoying with Elemental Epitome. This enabled the stab spam in the first place and was why stab was nerfed originally and is now a joke at 1s where any idea of using it tactically has gone out of the window in favour of spam.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

4 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

You're acting like aura spam isn't a problem, it's made worse by the signet trait but it is also annoying with Elemental Epitome. This enabled the stab spam in the first place and was why stab was nerfed originally and is now a joke at 1s where any idea of using it tactically has gone out of the window in favour of spam.

1s of Stab is actually useful when you know to use it when playing into Shock Aura for a strike or something like Engi Shield.

1s of Stab used wisely is pretty much a preemptive stun break for when you KNOW you're gonna get CC'd going in for an offense.

Elongated Stab is for defensive play.

[apharma.3741]

12 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

1s of Stab is actually useful when you know to use it when playing into Shock Aura for a strike or something like Engi Shield.

1s of Stab used wisely is pretty much a preemptive stun break for when you KNOW you're gonna get CC'd going in for an offense.

Elongated Stab is for defensive play.

Yeah, it's not, the trait was always meant to be used defensively, this is why it was 3s originally but 🤡M 🤡 decided that instead of addressing the aura spam, to reduce the stab. You know aura spam is an issue, everyone knows it's an issue. Instead of addressing the actual problem he's nerfing everything around his idea that catalyst should be some kind of aura god.

Stop deflecting with an unhelpful comment like this you know what I'm saying is right, you even complained at length about magnetic aura spam with swirling winds.

Edited July 19, 2023 by apharma.3741

[Flowki.7194]

13 hours ago, Dorsai.1458 said:

I have seen life without stab after it was taken away people thought it was op.  People adjust.  You saying that cata with no stab is worthless?  Trait for it in the earth line.  No reason to provide such BS access to stab when you also get all the other bloated goodies from aura.

Im saying you have not got a clue what you are talking about. If stab was not important, core ele would be close to, if not meta, and renegade would not be completely useless. It is only the stability on tempest overload which makes them even worth trying to use around good players, even with stability you can easily get stuned given the shear amount of CC/boon strip access in the average ranked game (necros and SPB). The same applys for power cata, if you think you can just run into an enemy group and be CC immune while spueing out dps, go try it my friend. Signet cata is something else.. that form of stability is a joke, too easy, but why fk with an entire class just for 1 spec (or should I say trait)? 

 

Auras are bloated goodies?, give me a break bud, there are endles passive abilitys in this game which are far worse than auras (auras are situational and 95% of them are avtive abilitys). I would also swap auras for full counter ANY DAY. In a game where the avg burst can kill somebody in 3 seconds, a stun reset? yes please.

 

And btw, other specs have easy access to stability, like reap mode, gaurdian and engi. Bunker or high mitigation specs like virt/spellbreaker have so much tank/control over opponents they don't even need stability. How about you go play a dps other than warrior?

Edited July 19, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

13 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

Yeah, it's not, the trait was always meant to be used defensively, this is why it was 3s originally but 🤡M 🤡 decided that instead of addressing the aura spam, to reduce the stab. You know aura spam is an issue, everyone knows it's an issue. Instead of addressing the actual problem he's nerfing everything around his idea that catalyst should be some kind of aura god.

Stop deflecting with an unhelpful comment like this you know what I'm saying is right, you even complained at length about magnetic aura spam with swirling winds.

Oh most certainly agree with you. I'd rather see aura spam tended to.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

27 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

If stab was not important, core ele would be close to, if not meta

Core Ele would be the only meta if there were no expansion specializations.

It's way stronger than the other core classes. It's bloated. And this is largely why the specializations that sit on top of it are also bloated.

Edited July 19, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[OddFinrir.6801]

It needs an internal cooldown on Smothering Auras and Elemental Shieldings, long enough that it doesn't affect anything much other than catalyst, and then a maximum distance on frost and fire aura effects. It's still OP and the passive spam needs to be addressed. Even then it still might be OP because the pulsing resolution and protection that can be used while CC'd, which stacks with the passive damage reductions it already has with traits(10% dmg reduction), signets(10% cond duration, 10% dmg reduction), and runes (20% cond duration).

Now to wait for someone to tell me catalyst has been this way since 2012 because that actually happened last time I commented on a mechanist thread.

[Sahne.6950]

They added auras to signets... only to then nerf the signets themselves, but keep the auras...    Signets are now worse than they were before but they grant auras..  Overall and veeery generally speaking the whole signet thing is now roughly where it was before the buff, in terms of overall power.....     but you now get auras on them?

Why the duck do they push down the power of the signets themselves?! Why dont they tweak the reworked trait that is causing the problems?

When you think it cant get any worse..... ANET SLAPS EVEN MORE AURAS ONTOP OF ELE.... And turns sceptre into a condiweapon 

AURAS ON SIGNETS ARE THE PROBLEM!!!! Do they not see it?

They are butchering numerous builds, only because they dont understand what the actual problem is.

You add something and it causes problem..... instead of tweaking the newly added thing... you twist and turn everything else....  like.. urgh...  THEY CANT BE THIS DUMB.

I.... i just cant anymore....  There is no possible way to cope with this.

Edited July 19, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[Flowki.7194]

45 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Core Ele would be the only meta if there were no expansion specializations.

It's way stronger than the other core classes. It's bloated. And this is largely why the specializations that sit on top of it are also bloated.

Yeah I see core eles all over ranked, so strong. On the other hand, core gaurd and necro are common. In-fact I see more core warrior than ele.

 

What do you mean by bloated?

Edited July 19, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Sahne.6950]

In all honesty... something drastic needs to happen. Tweaking numbers just doesnt cut it, as the mechanics of Cata are the actual problem.

If youd ask me, the problem lies in staunch auras, might generation and the ability to combo your watersphere numerous times to resustain.

 

Staunch auras no longer grants stability. Staunchauras now grants 2 seconds of Aegis. (establishes a healthy mechanic that doesnt end in mindlessly spamming stabi. You cant spam Aegis, as it doesnt stack. but you can use it in the right time to mitigate a incoming CC.)

Staunchauras now only works on Auras you gain from Elemental epitome.  (This is yet again a BIG nerf to staunch auras, but there will be followup adjustments to give the cata a reliable way to gain access to it.)

Water trident now is a projectile finisher, so you can combo your Watersphere with it.  (this might sound odd, but it needs to happen to make the Staunchauras <-> elemental epitome thing work, without killing cata)

Blinding flash is now a blastfinisher, so you can combo your Airsphere when your enemy is inside the sphere. (same thing here! you need a combofinisher in every attunement to make Elemental epitome work outside of Hammerbuilds.)

Spectacular sphere no longer grants resistance in Earth. It now grants 2 seconds of stability. (bit of a compensation for Staunchauras. Earthsphere is now your "get out of jail free card, while at the same time making you more vulnerable to immobs and weakness)

Any Sphere can now only be comboed once. when you combo a sphere, it "explodes" granting the full duration of boons. (This gets rid of multiple waterblasts to resustain)

Energized elements no longer grants might. It only grants you energy.  (flat nerf and a justified one at that.)

Elemental empowerments %Damagebonus reduced. (again flat nerf. it needs to happen)

Pyromancers puissance has a 3 second ICD when choosing the Catalyst specialisation.   (further nerf for the Fire 1 1 1 1 1 1 spam)

Written in Stone no longer grants auras on activation. Instead it enhances the users next attack to deal effects based on the signet used.  Fire=2 burn for 3 seconds. Earth=3 bleed for 8 seconds. Water=chill for 3 seconds. Air=5 vulnerability.       ( a more healthy mechanic and a reason to take WiS over Stoneheart)

Rockbarrier no longer grants resistance when equipping the catalyst specialisation (This gets completly rid of resistance on catalyst, leaving it very vulnerable to immobs and weakness, giving it a much needed weakpoint)

 

Cata players are gonna hate it... but the overall mechanics of cata need to be changed. The way it works right now.... is just absurdly good.

Cata will still be one of the top builds after this change. AEGIS ON DEMAND IS NO JOKE! But the acces to staunchauras is severly limited by those changes.

Edited July 19, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[Arrow Blade of El Elyon.9341]

If nerfed in sPvP please also nerf in WvW.

 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

1 hour ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Yeah I see core eles all over ranked, so strong. On the other hand, core gaurd and necro are common. In-fact I see more core warrior than ele.

 

What do you mean by bloated?

1. No one would actually Core Ele when you can play Catalyst, which is stronger and quite frankly easier to play. That's why you don't see Core Eles. The point your trying to make is moot. Also, I see quite a few people in NA running Core Ele. Poelala is one of them.
2. Of course you see Core Guardians & Core Necros. Unlike Core Ele, those two classes are the easiest classes to play for f2p players.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

1 hour ago, Sahne.6950 said:

In all honesty... something drastic needs to happen. Tweaking numbers just doesnt cut it, as the mechanics of Cata are the actual problem.

If youd ask me, the problem lies in staunch auras, might generation and the ability to combo your watersphere numerous times to resustain.

 

Staunch auras no longer grants stability. Staunchauras now grants Aegis. (establishes a healthy mechanic that doesnt end in mindlessly spamming stabi. You cant spam Aegis, as it doesnt stack. but you can use it in the right time to mitigate a incoming CC.)

Staunchauras now only works on Auras you gain from Elemental epitome.  (This is yet again a BIG nerf to staunch auras, but there will be followup adjustments to give the cata a reliable way to gain access to Aegis.)

Water trident now is a projectile finisher, so you can combo your Watersphere with it.  (this might sound odd, but it needs to happen to make the Staunchauras <-> elemental epitome thing work, without killing cata)

Blinding flash is now a blastfinisher, so you can combo your Airsphere when your enemy is inside the sphere. (same thing here! you need a combofinisher in every attunement to make Elemental epitome work consistently.)

Spectacular sphere no longer grants resistance in Earth. It now grants 2 seconds of stability. (bit of a compensation for Staunchauras. Earthsphere is now your "get out of jail free card, while at the same time making your more vulnerable to immobs and weakness)

Any Sphere can now only be comboed once. when you combo a sphere, it "explodes" granting the full duration of boons. (This gets rid of multiple waterblasts to resustain)

Energized elements no longer grants might. It only grants you energy.  (flat nerf and a justified one at that.)

Elemental empowerments %Damagebonus reduced. (again flat nerf. it needs to happen)

Pyromancers puissance has a 3 second ICD when choosing the Catalyst specialisation.   (further nerf for the Fire 1 1 1 1 1 1 spam)

Written in Stone no longer grants auras on activation. Instead it enhances the users next attack to deal effects based on the signet used.  Fire=2 burn for 3 seconds. Earth=3 bleed for 8 seconds. Water=chill for 3 seconds. Air=5 vulnerability.       ( a more healthy mechanic and a reason to take WiS over Stoneheart)

 

Cata players are gonna hate it... but the overall mechancis of cata need to be changed. The way it works right now.... is just absurdly good.

Cata will still be one of the top builds after this change. AEGIS ON DEMAND IS NO JOKE! But the acces to staunchauras is severly limited by those changes.

This is the type of realistic approach CMC needs to be considering.

[Goldilock.2584]

Na bro added all together this was a huge nurf

[Sahne.6950]

Just now, Goldilock.2584 said:

Na bro added all together this was a huge nurf

IT WAS!

but Cata is still winning every matchup... what does that say about the state of balance?

[Avead.5760]

1 hour ago, Sahne.6950 said:

In all honesty... something drastic needs to happen. Tweaking numbers just doesnt cut it, as the mechanics of Cata are the actual problem.

If youd ask me, the problem lies in staunch auras, might generation and the ability to combo your watersphere numerous times to resustain.

 

 

Any Sphere can now only be comboed once. when you combo a sphere, it "explodes" granting the full duration of boons. (This gets rid of multiple waterblasts to resustain)

And also maybe do some damage on the explosion so you can do some spikes with it! It doesn't have to be much like 1k-2k max on glass cannons! Hmm that would be so much fun actually.  Cata without blasting on the water field would be massively weaker though but the fun comes first! Maybe give some secondary explosion effect on the grandmaster traits that nobody uses because they take staunch auras since it is so broken.. But whatever. this is just dreaming they don't have the capacity to do this kind of change..

[Flowki.7194]

1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

1. No one would actually Core Ele when you can play Catalyst, which is stronger and quite frankly easier to play. That's why you don't see Core Eles. The point your trying to make is moot. Also, I see quite a few people in NA running Core Ele. Poelala is one of them.
2. Of course you see Core Guardians & Core Necros. Unlike Core Ele, those two classes are the easiest classes to play for f2p players.

Just becuase cata it is more effective it does not make it easier, it just means it is.. well, more effective. I played core ele for a while, along with tempest and power cata, its >core ele > tempest > cata in difficulty (effectiveness completely aside).

 

The only reason tempest ''feels'' harder than cata, is becuase of what it is. You get attacked all the time, so have to mitigate for yourself, while also healing others, knowing when to chip in on dps etc. All support have that added level of awareness difficulty, which is seperate from class mechanics difficulty.

 

Saying core ele is just too hard is an easy cop out, you assume all f2p are newb and/or scared of a little complexity to fit your argument. If core ele was more able to carry f2p players into higher ranks than core gaurd/necro, then thats what you would see, but you don't. I seen a few more core ele recently, but they were all testing the signet build, I don't see them much at all now, as usual, like 1-100 games, if that.

 

 

Edited July 19, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Downstate.4697]

1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

1. No one would actually Core Ele when you can play Catalyst, which is stronger and quite frankly easier to play. That's why you don't see Core Eles. The point your trying to make is moot. Also, I see quite a few people in NA running Core Ele. Poelala is one of them.
2. Of course you see Core Guardians & Core Necros. Unlike Core Ele, those two classes are the easiest classes to play for f2p players.

Can you describe what you find is op on core ele? 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

26 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Just becuase cata it is more effective it does not make it easier,

Coming from a super non-ele main, I'm telling you right now Cata is easier to play than Core Ele. It's essentially a Core Ele that's better in every way to a Core Ele, that doesn't require any extra knowledge or skill to be able to use in the same way Tempest or Weaver demands.

It's just an overly bloated Core Ele that plays exactly the same as Core Ele, + the Jade Sphere. That's all it is.

31 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

The only reason tempest ''feels'' harder than cata, is becuase of what it is. You get attacked all the time, so have to mitigate for yourself, while also healing others, knowing when to chip in on dps etc. All support have that added level of awareness difficulty, which is seperate from class mechanics difficulty.

Eh, I at least still respect Tempest players. You can clearly see the difference in bad Tempests and good Tempest, especially when it comes to support.

But Catalyst is like, anyone who touches that class just immediately becomes dangerous and is 100% full carried by the fact they logged into a Catalyst.

34 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Saying core ele is just too hard is an easy cop out, you assume all f2p are newb and/or scared of a little complexity to fit your argument.

Yes but you're acting like the obvious isn't true, which is also a discrediting argument on your part.

Clearly the reason why Necromancer & Guardian f2p representation is so unbelievably high is because these classes are ridiculously easy to play and very forgiving for new players. Clearly new players while test running classes to see what works best for them, notice this immediately.