Lets just erase alac and quickness and stop this mess.

[Kal Durak.2830]

On 7/20/2023 at 12:49 AM, Peter.3901 said:

Anet, seriously, your balancing team is a disaster, tons of feedbacks and you just do the oposite every update, we got that you just can't deal with balancing, so stop that, please.

Thank  you!  Please get rid of alac and quickness, Balance almost done.

[Tachenon.5270]

Hell, I say get rid of boons altogether. All of 'em. Make the professions strong enough that they don't need all these, ahem, 'bumps' to get through the content at hand. Goofy power-up nonsense. What are we playing here, Pac-Man? Super Mario? Ought to give us a Tanooki form or whenever we get booned.

I'm not entirely kidding.

[Infinity.2876]

I like quickness as a boon but it shouldn't be an available support option but should just be for dmg like ranger main hand dagger 3, engi sword 3, and berserker.

Alacrity is just unhealthy

[Matoro.9708]

On 7/19/2023 at 9:19 PM, cat.8975 said:

You could extend this same argument to literally every boon. If we're supposed to have 25 might all the time, then get rid of it and give everyone 750 power and condition damage. Fury? Get rid of it and raise the base crit chance. Protection? Remove it and increase armor by 50%.

Boons are a fun way to support your allies, and removing them would remove the need for anything but damage and healing. This game does not have and has never had the classic trinity system found in other mmos (dps/tank/heal), and that's a good thing.

I get it - I think the idea here though is that quickness and alacrity kind of improve everything, whereas other boons are much more specific. The other boons enhance what specific stats do for you, generally speaking, and can either round out you or your allies' weaknesses or enhance your strengths - but not both. Quick/Alac just make you do everything faster and more often. There's no nuance there. It's just boring performance. I think the call to remove them is born out of that, and how you have to abandon a lot of RP choices to get them. Homogeny.

[jason.1083]

3 hours ago, Matoro.9708 said:

I get it - I think the idea here though is that quickness and alacrity kind of improve everything, whereas other boons are much more specific. The other boons enhance what specific stats do for you, generally speaking, and can either round out you or your allies' weaknesses or enhance your strengths - but not both. Quick/Alac just make you do everything faster and more often. There's no nuance there. It's just boring performance. I think the call to remove them is born out of that, and how you have to abandon a lot of RP choices to get them. Homogeny.

Well that can be said about Protection Resolution as well, since they decrease each type of damage regardless of where it's coming from. Stability too because it prevents any and all CC. 

Regardless that's how the game is now and we shouldn't just remove any of these core combat mechanics, I understand the argument that we gotten to a point where 1 person can have 100% uptime on them and that can create interesting situations, but Anet should be able to balance around that, if they balance the game without ever factoring in boons I'd be very surprised. 

Also I'm used to playing with 100% quickness uptime, so please don't ruin that, the game will feel sluggish... 

[Mell.4873]

On 7/21/2023 at 11:33 AM, Dorsai.1458 said:

I don't want them to get rid of it or alac ...I think they should only be self-buffs with CDs preventing 100% uptime 

Then any profession with these boons becomes default the best Elite in the game. Much like how Warrior was at launch.

Edited July 26, 2023 by Mell.4873

[Mell.4873]

9 hours ago, Areoh.7495 said:

Thank  you!  Please get rid of alac and quickness, Balance almost done.

Then also get rid of Chilled and Slowed since they are the conditions that you corrupt those boons into. 
Then nerf all bosses in the game since they have been made to difficult with the boon removal.
Then remove most of the AoE healing in the game since that is now to strong.

I mean what are we doing here......

[Raarsi.6798]

11 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Then any profession with these buff becomes default the best Elite in the game. Much like how Warrior was at launch.

Not by much though depending on the cooldown assuming that these buffs would be exclusively self-buffs.  At that point, they'd just be like any other personal damage cooldown.

I'm starting to think the more this drags on, the more I've been agreeing with the OP in that the best answer really would be just to remove quickness and alacrity outright and get this problem past us.  It's one thing to have other kinds of buffs like might and fury that are more universal ways of helping group damage that isn't directly dealing damage, but given that I've had professions straight up ruined for me due to being forced to play elite specs because of a single buff like alacrity to the point where it has literally been the only actual reoccurring circumstance of player toxicity I have ever seen in all my years of playing this game (or any player toxicity for that matter), I've definitely had fewer and fewer qualms about seeing those two buffs get the violent code deletions they deserve.

11 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Then also get rid of Chilled and Slowed since they are the conditions that you corrupt those boons into. 
Then nerf all bosses in the game since they have been made to difficult with the boon removal.
Then remove most of the AoE healing in the game since that is now to strong.

I mean what are we doing here......

It's also been kind of funny seeing all of these slippery slope fallacies popping up of "why not just get rid of all these other things" when none of them have ever been near as divisive or as much of a problem in terms of making or breaking builds in content (like ones that "can't" run without them).  When was the last time any player thought "gee, might's too strong of a buff, we need to get rid of it" or the last time someone got kicked from a group because they didn't have access to protection or couldn't provide 100% fury uptime?  It's literally just those two buffs of quickness and alacrity; those are the only problem here and nothing else.

What we're doing here is suggesting how we not just as players, but as customers, can make the product we enjoy less needlessly burdensome and more enjoyable, allowing players to play elite specs in group content because that's what they want to play and not because that's what they have to play.

[Mell.4873]

5 hours ago, Raarsi.6798 said:

 What we're doing here is suggesting how we not just as players, but as customers, can make the product we enjoy less needlessly burdensome and more enjoyable, allowing players to play elite specs in group content because that's what they want to play and not because that's what they have to play.

Isn't this going to happen regardless of boons. If we no longer require certain classes to clear content then wouldn't you just play the highest DPS. Anything else  will just be kicked. 

This did happened once when Scourge was super strong before EoD. CM fractals had no other DPS options maybe just Condition DPS Firebrand 

[Raarsi.6798]

14 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Isn't this going to happen regardless of boons. If we no longer require certain classes to clear content then wouldn't you just play the highest DPS. Anything else  will just be kicked. 

That would assume that Anet devs have no idea how to balance anything.

Oh wait...

[Leo G.4501]

On 7/21/2023 at 11:21 AM, jason.1083 said:

Well that can be said about Protection Resolution as well, since they decrease each type of damage regardless of where it's coming from. Stability too because it prevents any and all CC. 

Regardless that's how the game is now and we shouldn't just remove any of these core combat mechanics, I understand the argument that we gotten to a point where 1 person can have 100% uptime on them and that can create interesting situations, but Anet should be able to balance around that, if they balance the game without ever factoring in boons I'd be very surprised. 

Also I'm used to playing with 100% quickness uptime, so please don't ruin that, the game will feel sluggish... 

Frankly, I don't think you deserve 100% quickness uptime lol

But I wouldn't remove quickness, I'd just limit it to the speed of the #1 attack.  Having traits that give a bonus to skill speed for certain skills is more balanced, IMO.  You don't even have to change the current boon app and you're still granting a moderate utility since a lot of weapons either grant boons, conditions, or healing with that (set of) skill(s). You can then rebalance the other skills with appropriate damage, cast times, cooldowns, etc and keeping the #1 as needing to balance around quickness and ignoring alacrity. Think of it like balancing the #1 since it's unaffected by alacrity. 

[jason.1083]

3 hours ago, Leo G.4501 said:

Frankly, I don't think you deserve 100% quickness uptime lol

But I wouldn't remove quickness, I'd just limit it to the speed of the #1 attack.  Having traits that give a bonus to skill speed for certain skills is more balanced, IMO.  You don't even have to change the current boon app and you're still granting a moderate utility since a lot of weapons either grant boons, conditions, or healing with that (set of) skill(s). You can then rebalance the other skills with appropriate damage, cast times, cooldowns, etc and keeping the #1 as needing to balance around quickness and ignoring alacrity. Think of it like balancing the #1 since it's unaffected by alacrity. 

That's a difficult thing to balance, and a big rework, currently quickness as it is allows for some hard to avoid skill combinations that preform really well, and that's kind of the whole point of quickness. Especially if we're talking about CC, quick casting those skills in competitive modes can make a big difference. 

I still think the game will feel slow without the majority of the skills being affected by quicknes though. 

[Gaiawolf.8261]

6 hours ago, jason.1083 said:

But I wouldn't remove quickness, I'd just limit it to the speed of the #1 attack.

And gathering speed, please. After having quickness in OW, I can't go back to harvesting nodes at snail pace! 😆

[Lakemine.3014]

Adding my vote as well. Not only being forced into playing classes and specs I do not like because "You MUST provide one of the boons or get kicked.", but also when I do find a rare spec that I DO like, they go and ruin it completely within a few months after I spent hundereds of gold making it. If they just remove them, I really don't see the downside, unless someone can explain them to me. I just see more people being able to do content on the classes they like, instead of being limited to only a few.

[DeceiverX.8361]

On 7/22/2023 at 7:54 AM, Mell.4873 said:

Isn't this going to happen regardless of boons. If we no longer require certain classes to clear content then wouldn't you just play the highest DPS. Anything else  will just be kicked. 

This did happened once when Scourge was super strong before EoD. CM fractals had no other DPS options maybe just Condition DPS Firebrand 

Yes, though it will be better than the current mantra since encounters will likely need to be adjusted to accommodate for the reduced stats and/or phases won't be skipped as often so the better players will just be preferable to all else.  That's why I keep saying this problem is a combination of powercreep/role-forcing (both a competitive and PvE problem) AND DPS meters being available (a PvE problem).

I made a post about this on the old forums when overwolf DPS meters were officially greenlit.  PvE is merely an optimization problem with definitive solutions.  If ANet toyed around with numbers like adjusting nearly all of a given class' weapon skill damage by 5% instead of one or two skills and a trait by like 30-40%, and then also got rid of DPS meters, people would care a lot less about which classes people are bringing, wouldn't be as confident with their theorycrafting, and would be much slower to make new optimizations.  There is no such thing as a metagame in the current iteration of PvE in this game, and therefore giving players the tools to decisively know exactly what is optimal will always inherently lead to toxic behavior.  Without this information, a small fluctuation will not be significant in the hands of the average player.

[Mell.4873]

2 hours ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

Yes, though it will be better than the current mantra since encounters will likely need to be adjusted to accommodate for the reduced stats and/or phases won't be skipped as often so the better players will just be preferable to all else.  That's why I keep saying this problem is a combination of powercreep/role-forcing (both a competitive and PvE problem) AND DPS meters being available (a PvE problem).

I made a post about this on the old forums when overwolf DPS meters were officially greenlit.  PvE is merely an optimization problem with definitive solutions.  If ANet toyed around with numbers like adjusting nearly all of a given class' weapon skill damage by 5% instead of one or two skills and a trait by like 30-40%, and then also got rid of DPS meters, people would care a lot less about which classes people are bringing, wouldn't be as confident with their theorycrafting, and would be much slower to make new optimizations.  There is no such thing as a metagame in the current iteration of PvE in this game, and therefore giving players the tools to decisively know exactly what is optimal will always inherently lead to toxic behavior.  Without this information, a small fluctuation will not be significant in the hands of the average player.

I would rather not go back to the time when attempt anything other than the easiest end game content was an hour or more experience. I remember Arah could only be done if you cheesed the second phase of the Boss with a Mesmer bubble. 

If they did remove DPS meters I would probably leave the game so.. 

Edited July 25, 2023 by Mell.4873

[phandaria.4891]

On 7/20/2023 at 4:19 AM, Mauti.3520 said:

People are about my class X has worse than class Y in PvE since the launch of the game. Spike Damage and Might+Fury Access on release, also Mobility, later Quickness/Alac, then Unique Modifiers, breakbar potential, Utility to cheese and carry encounters, Stability/Aegis. List goes on and on and on and on.

I personally think the idea of removing Quickness/Alac and things will come back in order is nothing but a tempting illusion. It will just move the focus of balance complaints and also invalidate a lot of specs straight up again (Herald, Scrapper eca.)

Exactly this.

4 Warrior 1 Mesmer CoF Meta wasn't simply just because of Time Warp (i.e. Quickness). Flat stat boost from banners and might from FGJ made warrior the best offensive boons giver outside of quickness.

Giving alacrity and quickness to every class is a step in the right direction, although the execution is pretty terrible for some classes.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

On 7/23/2023 at 7:11 PM, Lakemine.3014 said:

Adding my vote as well. Not only being forced into playing classes and specs I do not like because "You MUST provide one of the boons or get kicked.", but also when I do find a rare spec that I DO like, they go and ruin it completely within a few months after I spent hundereds of gold making it. If they just remove them, I really don't see the downside, unless someone can explain them to me. I just see more people being able to do content on the classes they like, instead of being limited to only a few.

The downside is in the philosophy itself, and in the nature of human beings that are optimizers of games based on numbers.

Here's how it goes... A B C D E F G are your options in the game. A is the "the meta" for whatever arbitrary reason, so every player requires you to bring A. You decide that your philosophy will be to "just remove it" so you remove it and now you have B C D E F G... some time passes and now B is "the meta" so every player requires you to bring B. You decide once more to just remove it...so now you have C D E F G...then D E F G...then E F G...then F G... you see where this is going?

The act of "just removing it" turns out to be self destructive: a systemic removal of the games elements, because of players doing an optimization processes on the games state.

The typical naïve response is usually of the form : "but if B C D E F G are equal then is balanced" but the problem is B C D E F G are never equal. Additionally, the complexity of the game is such that there will never be a way to tell how A effects the hierarchy of A B C D E F G. It could very well be that A is what makes CDEFG on equal footing to B....and with the removal, this equal footing disappears.

I'll try to repeat this again. The complexity of Guild Wars 2 is complex in such a way, where elements rely on the existence of other elements, and those elements rely on the existence of other elements and so on... When elements disappear, the changes in these relationships cascade throughout the whole game and it becomes unknowable exactly what will happen as a result of such things. Ultimately it doesn't actually "solve" anything because the process of optimization continues to push on the creation of a hierarchy...and thus the acting of "removing" things as a philosophy is critically flawed. 

If I can make an analogy, it is the same kind of phenomena when animals are introduced or taken away from ecosystems they are apart of...things drastically change...Like for example the first attempt at animal conservation at Yellowstone, where Americans thought wolves would be a danger to the local sheep and livestock, so they did a systemic annihlation of the species, about 300 or so wolves killed. turned out that the small population of wolves, were keeping elks in check...elks turned out to eat all the grass and their sheer numbers stomped the land into rock. with all the grass eaten and unable to grow back, the park turned into a desert (lmao)

So back to guild wars 2...what happens if you start removing things? Then "the next thing" will usurp what optomizers choose as the optimal way to play the game, and this might be much worse problem then before.

If I had to take a guess : Quickness massively benefits builds that have simple rotations, over those that do not, by a disproportionate amount (because auto-attacks don't benefit from alacrity, where complex builds benefit from both quickness and alacrity)  Therefor, auto-attack like builds, will have DPS drastically lower, then complex build counterparts. So if you were having fun playing a simple rotation, get us-to playing more complicated rotations.

Edited July 25, 2023 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Kal Durak.2830]

On 7/21/2023 at 6:59 PM, Infinity.2876 said:

I like quickness as a boon but it shouldn't be an available support option but should just be for dmg like ranger main hand dagger 3, engi sword 3, and berserker.

Alacrity is just unhealthy

Anet has FORCED quickness on the WvW Firebrand build, I don't use it for Stab but it is still mandatory in the line. 

[Diktator.8927]

On 7/20/2023 at 1:19 AM, cat.8975 said:

This game does not have and has never had the classic trinity system found in other mmos (dps/tank/heal), and that's a good thing.

In your opinion. 

In my opinion, it's not a good thing, as I do prefer having a clear trinity (or even a quaternity? with support specs being added to that trio).

 

I've been always saying that boons are a garbage system in general, due to what they became. 
I have no problem with some of them, or even most of them:
- as long they aren't perma buffs (or at least for a lot of them you would need to really build your character to get it, with max concentration, runes, etc.)
- as long as they all of them aren't present on every class/spec, because it kills class identity/diversity in a way, because everyone can do everything, regardless of the class (I think some stuff should be unique to some professions/specs, without making that unique stuff mandatory to have in group content - meaning they should be self buffs only)
- as long as they aren't required for everyone in the group to have, because frankly, there should be more diversity. There should be power specs that benefit more from fury, and some that don't care about it (or crit) at all. The game should allow for more build diversity in terms of gear/stats, other than "go full berserker for power dps". Some classes should focus more on crit and fury, some should focus on the raw damage without the crit (endless possibilities really, some could focus on attack speed + crit, for the high apm specs, some could focus on pure damage, some could be dmg + crit for big but slower hits, etc.). Sadly this kind of thing doesn't seem to exist in GW2, as all power builds are fairly similar in terms of stats they choose (it's similar with condi), and crit is required to deal as much damage as possible. 

Edited July 26, 2023 by Diktator.8927

[cyberzombie.7348]

I'd  say to just bring quickness back to vanilla standards, and alac to HoT. Where they were powerful, yet relatively rare boons to have. Maybe go a bit further and remove 90% of boon application skills from elite specs.

[cyberzombie.7348]

On 7/21/2023 at 3:46 AM, Tachenon.5270 said:

Hell, I say get rid of boons altogether. All of 'em. Make the professions strong enough that they don't need all these, ahem, 'bumps' to get through the content at hand.

That's how the vanilla game was balanced for the most part. You were already strong without em and boons were actual temporary buffs, instead of a permanent necessity.

[Leo G.4501]

16 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

The act of "just removing it" turns out to be self destructive: a systemic removal of the games elements, because of players doing an optimization processes on the games state.

They remove elements from their game all the time.

Does anyone remember unique profession buffs? Those are pretty much gone, destroyed. How about warrior banner kits that you can run around and thwack people with while granting buffs and boons? Remember persistent phantasms that could stay about doing damage to a target or Spirit weapons that you could summon and command that would follow you around? Retaliation, does anyone remember that boon?

To suggest the removal of an element of the game, they only have to have a tertiary reason to remove it (like removing passivity in combat or something), regardless of it one thinks it's destroying complexity. 

[The Spiral King.2483]

16 minutes ago, Leo G.4501 said:

Does anyone remember unique profession buffs? Those are pretty much gone, destroyed.

Among the enormous amount of issues I've had with balancing "efforts" Anet has done over the years, this is the biggest cardinal sin that infuriates me. They've sandblasted just about every unique thing about professions away apart from the most superficial. Instead of bothering to try and balance them, they just said kitten it and systematically replaced them all with generic boonspam. I remember seeing years ago someone making the (at the time) seemingly facetious claim that Anet ultimately wants every class to just be the same except for having a different colored stick to kitten out your specific colored particle effects. With the recent obsession with perma boons in general for every class and alacrity and quickness specifically, they are closer than ever to achieving this nightmare scenario.

[rotten.9753]

1 hour ago, The Spiral King.2483 said:

Among the enormous amount of issues I've had with balancing "efforts" Anet has done over the years, this is the biggest cardinal sin that infuriates me. They've sandblasted just about every unique thing about professions away apart from the most superficial. Instead of bothering to try and balance them, they just said kitten it and systematically replaced them all with generic boonspam. I remember seeing years ago someone making the (at the time) seemingly facetious claim that Anet ultimately wants every class to just be the same except for having a different colored stick to kitten out your specific colored particle effects. With the recent obsession with perma boons in general for every class and alacrity and quickness specifically, they are closer than ever to achieving this nightmare scenario.

Yes, passive buffs are what made the game better in the past and what made the professions truly diverse.