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What's the difference in how spammy shades are now from previously?


Lily.1935

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So I'm hearing a small minority of people defending the shade duration changes saying "its just as spammy as it was before" and saying "Its better now because you don't have to summon as many shades" or some other stuff like that which is objectively not true and let me explain why.

So, shade duration at 20 seconds with a 8 second recharge. Throw in alacrity and that's about 5 and 3/4ths seconds on that count recharge. So lets go over the opener. You lay down 2 shades and begin the fight with the first shade striking your target. Okay, assuming 1 second between shades you have about 16 seconds before you need to use Manifest sand shade again. You wont want to wait that long, however you have that time to activate your first one. In that time you can cast plaguelands, Blood is power x2, Grasping dead, Devouring darkness, Harrowing wave, Oppressive collapse and get a few auto attack chains in before you need to summon. In-between skill casts or as you cast spells you can activate your shroud skills with that without interruption. During this you can have a strong opening while being able to better space your shades out because by the time you absolutely need to cast them again, you have 3 charges again. I wouldn't suggest waiting that long but it is something you could have done. This is also quite helpful for people who live in areas with higher ping than say the USA.

Now compare this to the current version. 8 second duration with a 5 and 3/4ths recharge time. Same recharge but what's available during the window of your skill cast? okay, we have after cast delay to worry about and ping. So plaguelands is 3/4ths a second and with after cast delay that's a second, BiP cast twice I'll be generous and say that's 1 1/2 seconds, then grasping dead and Devouring darkness that's a second and now you need to summon again. You see, you don't have 16 seconds to wait, you need to summon after 6 seconds which you need to factor in the after cast delay. This is assuming perfect quickness up time and perfect alacrity up time. So before you can use all of your other skills and do any auto attacking you have to summon once again. And it doesn't get better from there. You can continue to space out shades with the previous version and you could space them out as far as 14 seconds apart, you can't do that here you can't have any down time of shades. You could try and optimize it to be 7 seconds, but that's rough and any miss click or if the server doesn't register that you've activated a skill(something I've experienced quite a bit especially when playing scourge) you'll have to do this at 6 seconds to be consistent.

So, if you're wondering just how much different it is on the required level of shade spam you need to do, its double the amount of spam you need to do from previously. But this is only assuming the raid scene, what about in open world.

Well, In open world you're going to be losing shade charges and you wont be able to get off more than 3 skills before you need to summon another shade provided you don't have your jade bot buff up.

now this is just rough math, but it adds up to double the spam required. And some people might dislike auto attacking but I disagree with this philosophy. I think that any healthy DPS build should auto attack at least some of the time, not all of it, but it should have moments of rest. I love my Condi Kits holosmith as much as the next girl and grinding out that DPS, but its not exactly something we should expect from most builds, in fact that sort of gameplay should be extremely rare.

Edited by Lily.1935
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30 minutes ago, rotten.9753 said:

Previously, you were using them on cooldown to get a Dhuumfire trigger and to get bonus expertise/concentration/damage reduction (only the first bonus matters though). The cooldown did not change, and thus it's as spammy as before.

Maybe on the golem, but in actual play, you were letting charges build up for when movement occurs or new targets spawn that you need to cover.  You can't do that anymore.

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49 minutes ago, rotten.9753 said:

Previously, you were using them on cooldown to get a Dhuumfire trigger and to get bonus expertise/concentration/damage reduction (only the first bonus matters though). The cooldown did not change, and thus it's as spammy as before.

What if I was running Blood Magic instead of Soul Reaping before the changes? Yeah it was less golem dps, but I almost always kept up with every pug Scourge with Soul Reaping I ever saw in real combat scenarios.

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On 7/20/2023 at 7:29 AM, rotten.9753 said:

Previously, you were using them on cooldown to get a Dhuumfire trigger and to get bonus expertise/concentration/damage reduction (only the first bonus matters though). The cooldown did not change, and thus it's as spammy as before.

People are still way overrating Dhuumfire, huh? 

The point is, yes, they were spammable before (which was already a player complaint then) for an absolutely miniscule DPS increase, but you didn't have to. In fact, I'd argue >99% of players do better by not spamming some <200 DPS increase things as Golem Benchmarks recommend, as most people do more DPS and have far higher content clear rates in actual encounters if they instead focus on the basics such as tracking mechanics, movement and finishing AA-Chains.

To pretend like mashing Manifest Shade every 5.5-7 seconds was the only way to play Scourge before is just dishonest, and wasn't required for even reaching ~99% of it's performance potential. 

Now you have to spam it, there is no way around it if you want to perform even decently. 

And I'd say most people don't seem to appreciate this extremely and forced spammy combat direction for Scourge, nor the game as a whole.

 

P.S.:

If you want to be silly, at least make the ~6 accounts for reactions less obvious, there hasn't been this much forum activity for this many in seconds after any post, least of all in a profession forum, a niche topic, and at this time in the day, in the last decade. 

Edited by Asum.4960
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2 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

The point is, yes, they were spammable before (which was already a player complaint then) for an absolutely miniscule DPS increase, but you didn't have to. In fact, I'd argue >99% of players do better by not spamming some <200 DPS increase things as Golem Benchmarks recommend, as most people do more DPS and have far higher content clear rates in actual encounters if they instead focus on the basics such as tracking mechanics, movement and finishing AA-Chains.

To pretend like mashing Manifest Shade every 5.5-7 seconds was the only way to play Scourge before is just dishonest, and wasn't required for even reaching ~99% of it's performance potential. 

The difference between 1 and 3 shades was 10% condition duration, it's far more than 200 DPS. Now you get that bonus with just 1 shade.

4 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

Now you have to spam it, there is no way around it if you want to perform even decently. 

So what exactly changed if you think shade spam was only for Dhuumfire? You still count as shade and don't really need to put down any shade as DPS if you don't care about bonus expertise, which you obviously don't, based on what you wrote.

5 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

And I'd say most people don't seem to appreciate this extremely and forced spammy combat direction for Scourge, nor the game as a whole.

The combat is "spammy" since 2012, it's just "the community" doesn't like pressing buttons. I can imagine the horrors if Scourge has to start using a weapon swap.

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51 minutes ago, Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

Maybe on the golem, but in actual play, you were letting charges build up for when movement occurs or new targets spawn that you need to cover.  You can't do that anymore.

Most encounters pre-EoD are pretty much golems right now, not sure where you really need to disregard free DPS/expertise bonus to get more target cap. Additionally, based on the Mechanist treatment, I don't really believe 12 targets cap and multiple areas control is something ANet wanted to keep.

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2 minutes ago, rotten.9753 said:

The difference between 1 and 3 shades was 10% condition duration, it's far more than 200 DPS. Now you get that bonus with just 1 shade.

So what exactly changed if you think shade spam was only for Dhuumfire? You still count as shade and don't really need to put down any shade as DPS if you don't care about bonus expertise, which you obviously don't, based on what you wrote.

The combat is "spammy" since 2012, it's just "the community" doesn't like pressing buttons. I can imagine the horrors if Scourge has to start using a weapon swap.

You were able to maintain 2-3 Shades for the Minors without spamming them at 6 second intervals before.

Now you either spam them every 6 seconds, or you get zero passive Bonus.

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29 minutes ago, Swan.9815 said:

What if I was running Blood Magic instead of Soul Reaping before the changes? Yeah it was less golem dps, but I almost always kept up with every pug Scourge with Soul Reaping I ever saw in real combat scenarios.

You can still do that, right? What exactly changed for you?

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1 minute ago, Asum.4960 said:

You were able to maintain 2-3 Shades for the Minors without spamming them at 6 second intervals before.

Now you either spam them every 6 seconds, or you get zero passive Bonus.

Maintain for how long? 20 seconds? Why every 6 seconds? The duration is 8 seconds.

Edited by rotten.9753
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9 minutes ago, rotten.9753 said:

You can still do that, right? What exactly changed for you?

You said the reason to use Manifest Shade off cooldown was for Dhuumfire, Blood Magic doesn't have Dhuumfire, so your point was invalid for my build. 

Edited by Swan.9815
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2 minutes ago, rotten.9753 said:

Maintain for how long? 20 seconds? Why every 6 seconds? The duration is 8 seconds.

Indefinitely, by somewhat comfortably fitting them into "rotational" gaps with far more margin than now. It wasn't great then, it's awful now. 

And well every, 5.5-7.5 seconds now, granted.

Look, idk why you are so hostile or keen to defend these changes, but I've pretty much mained Scourge for 6 years now, with about~95% of my playtime being Raids, Fractals and Strikes - I kind of know how I played it for the last few thousand hours, and where I stood performance wise doing so. 

There isn't really a debate here. But you do you.

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2 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

Indefinitely, by somewhat comfortably fitting them into "rotational" gaps with far more margin than now. It wasn't great then, it's awful now. 

And well every, 5.5-7.5 seconds now, granted.

Look, idk why you are so hostile or keen to defend these changes, but I've pretty much mained Scourge for 6 years now, with about~95% of my playtime being Raids, Fractals and Strikes - I kind of know how I played it for the last few thousand hours, and where I stood performance wise doing so. 

There isn't really a debate here. But you do you.

That was mathematically impossible to maintain 3 shades without spamming like now. Your playtime isn't really an argument, I can say the same thing as well. Like I said nefore, you still do not have to spam any shades if you were not doing that before, what ANet nerfed for you is just area control which was too good, 12 targets cap is not healthy for the game.

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1 minute ago, Swan.9815 said:

I did, everyone else is disproving the rest of what you said, so I didn't feel the need to address it.

I guess "and"  is period for you. You must have missed the entire "to get bonus expertise/concentration/damage reduction". Soul Reaping doesn't change that.

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50 minutes ago, rotten.9753 said:

That was mathematically impossible to maintain 3 shades without spamming like now. Your playtime isn't really an argument, I can say the same thing as well. Like I said nefore, you still do not have to spam any shades if you were not doing that before, what ANet nerfed for you is just area control which was too good, 12 targets cap is not healthy for the game.

Yes, it fluctuated between 2-3. So >66% of the passives without spamming (which overcapped Bleed duration already anyway, and missing 5% Torment Duration - or an average of 2.5% - really wasn't a big deal). Now you either spam and have the max passive, or don't and have no passive boni whatsoever (so -15% all duration). It's worse to play now, with greater punishment for not spamming. That's the entire point people are making.

Edited by Asum.4960
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Just now, rotten.9753 said:

I guess "and"  is period for you. You must have missed the entire "to get bonus expertise/concentration/damage reduction". Soul Reaping doesn't change that.

Sigh, I didn't want to get pedantic, but here goes: If you make a claim that the reason to do a thing is A and B, and A is proven false then your whole statement could be considered false. What you want to say in this case is, the reason to do a thing is A and/or B, so that if only one claim is proven false you are still correct.

Also, you're the one who has had trouble reading what I have said, not the other way around. I said I used Blood Magic before the changes, you somehow ignored the Blood Magic part and only focused on the changes part for some reason. Next up I told you the reason I was focusing on the first part of what you said was because others were disproving the rest, which you didn't seem to grasp by replying that I think "and" and a period are interchangeable.

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12 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

Yes, it fluctuated between 2-3. So >66% of the passives without spamming (which overcapped Bleed duration already anyway, and missing 5% Torment Duration really wasn't a big deal). Now you either spam and have the max passive, or don't and have no passive boni whatsoever (so -15% all duration). It's worse to play now, with greater punishment for not spamming. That's the entire point people are making.

And that point is moot coming from people that ignored that bonus in the past. 

One of the easiest build in the game got slightly harder to play but now deals 41k DPS while being ranged with no projectiles (ignores any projectiles hate), free condition conversions, barrier, strong CC, still no weapon swap and hidden cooldowns but you have to press one button every 8s and it's the problem?

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9 minutes ago, Swan.9815 said:

Sigh, I didn't want to get pedantic, but here goes: If you make a claim that the reason to do a thing is A and B, and A is proven false then your whole statement could be considered false. What you want to say in this case is, the reason to do a thing is A and/or B, so that if only one claim is proven false you are still correct.

Your pedanticism is noted but factually wrong - the A statement wasn't proven false but optional (as much as free DPS is optional).

Edited by rotten.9753
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51 minutes ago, rotten.9753 said:

And that point is moot coming from people that ignored that bonus in the past. 

One of the easiest build in the game got slightly harder to play but now deals 41k DPS while being ranged with no projectiles (ignores any projectiles hate), free condition conversions, barrier, strong CC, still no weapon swap and hidden cooldowns but you have to press one button every 8s and it's the problem?

Yes, it is a problem. I'm not 20 anymore and suffer from chronic wrist pain (which GW2, specifically straight up repetitive stress injuries from years of FB and it's Mantra spam, actually was a major contributor to). I tend to play games to have fun, not to be in pain.

And it's hardly one button every <8 seconds - when literally all weapon skills are already spammed off-CD, Nefarious Favor is spammed every 3 seconds, and soon Pistol as swap to spam yet another 3 skills off-CD will be added on top of that, plus the other Fx and "Utility"'s ofc (coming together to over 70 skills/buttons pressed per minute for Scourge, averaging over 1 per second, without AA or movement button presses, for potentially hours at a time for some content - that's insane). 

Nothing, least of all Scourge, should do >40k DPS to begin with. It's way too much for the game - but that isn't the point. It sucks to play.

Edited by Asum.4960
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6 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

And it's hardly one button every <8 seconds - when literally all weapon skills are already spammed off-CD, Nefarious Favor is spammed every 3-4 seconds, and soon Pistol as swap to spam yet another 3 skills off-CD will be added on top of that, plus the other Fx and "Utility"'s ofc. 

Isn't this how you play with most professions? You spam skills on cooldown because there's no energy/mana system. Only skills you don't use are those that are worse than autoattacks.

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Just now, rotten.9753 said:

Your pedanticism is noted but factually wrong - the A statement wasn't proven false but optional.

And by being optional it proves A is not objectively true, which makes it false in the overarching statement you made.

Why can't you just accept that people don't like being forced to do an equivalence of the Cairn CM mechanic just to use their class features?

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3 minutes ago, Swan.9815 said:

And by being optional it proves A is not objectively true, which makes it false in the overarching statement you made.

Something being optional doesn't make it false and even if A is false and the whole statement is false it doesn't change the fact that B is true.

3 minutes ago, Swan.9815 said:

Why can't you just accept that people don't like being forced to do an equivalence of the Cairn CM mechanic just to use their class features?

I accept that fact very well, all I'm saying is nothing changed for people that weren't spamming shades before. You didn't care about bonus expertise before, you won't care about it now.

Edited by rotten.9753
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8 minutes ago, rotten.9753 said:

Isn't this how you play with most professions? You spam skills on cooldown because there's no energy/mana system. Only skills you don't use are those that are worse than autoattacks.

That's the problem. It didn't used to be this bad though. CD's are getting shorter and shorter across the game, and every skill which used to be dedicated to Utility, Mobility or Support is also either becoming a DPS skill to spam off-CD, or for supports, a skill mandatory for Boon uptimes to spam off-CD. 

It's not just Scourge, everything is becoming an utter button spam fest with zero room for skill expression, and a genuine concern for repetitive stress injuries. 

Do you really feel like that's a good thing, just because number's go higher?

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