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PvP Relics - Wishlist for ArenaNet


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Pretty sure most of you have seen the new Studio Post about the Relic System - so thought I make a thread for the community to post some Relics they would like to see in PvP in order to give ArenaNet some inspiration and make it easier for them to choose the right Relics for PvP.

 

My personal suggestion would be a Relic that would grant 3s of Quickness and 6s of Fury after Healing Skill usage with an ICD of 30s. I think there are alot of power builds that are starving for some Fury and Quickness access and it would for sure open up some more possibilities for theorycraft.

 

What kind of Relics would you like to see?

Edited by GuriGashi.5617
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  • GuriGashi.5617 changed the title to PvP Relics - Wishlist for ArenaNet

Possibly a return of things like Pack, Durability, etc just for the stats.

A lot of specs got hurt by the loss of Pack runes.

Durability was overpowered because of the fact it gave everyone defensive boons on a low CD while also providing defensive stats.

 

I guess I'm mainly excited about the idea of a lot runes being added since the bonus effects are being separated.

Runes of Tormenting, Perplexity, all that stuff.

Mesmers are going to love being able to finally drop going Lynx/Traveler Runes purely for the 25% movement speed, similar with Guardians.

Relics can shake a lot of things up.

 

I'd love to see interactions with boon removal, condition removal, stuff like that.

Something like Purity of Purpose but as a Relic.

Edited by Vinny.7260
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There are all kinds of competitively statistical suggestions I'd make, but clearly Arenanet is aiming at Tyrian themed items.

Here we go, off the top of my head:

  1. Relic Of The Queen - Summons a couple Seraph NPCs for 10s.
  2. Relic Of Ebon Van Hawk - Lays a smoke field when use elite.
  3. Relic Of The Seering - Lays a fire field when use elite.
  4. Relic Of Lion's Arch - Lays a water field when use elite.
  5. Lots of other Relics & themes you could tie other combo fields to. You get the idea.
  6. Relic Of Blasting - Makes elite or even the heal utility a blast finisher.
  7. Relic Of Leaping - Makes all mobility skills leap finishers, things like Bull's Charge.

Could do some class specific relics that can only be used by specific classes:

  1. Relic Of Joko/Necro - Summons a couple Mordant NPCs for 10s that yell "Praise Joko" when use elite.
  2. Relic Of Scarlet/Engi - When use elite skill, gives access to a kit that when equipped, has 1x ammo charge to use this thing Scarlet's Kiss - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) which could be designed to hit similar to this thing Prime Light Beam - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)
  3. Relic Of Balthazar/War - All CCs deal burn & extra power damage for 10s or something after elite skill use.
  4. Relic Of Eir Segalkin/Ranger - Summons Garm to perform high damage knockdown on elite skill use.
  5. You get the idea.

Just thoughts man, just thoughts.

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Most passive effects that currently exist on PvP runes should be turned into PvP relics so as not to cause too many problems by accidentally removing necessary choices.

They should also add some effects that add counters to specific problems, and some effects which were removed from PvP but shouldn't have been.

IE: Antitoxins effects of +1 to condi removal should be returned to PvP as a good relic choice for countering condi metas. Durability rune effect should also be added back as a counter to power burst metas. A boon removal relic should be added to counter boonspamball metas. A relic that lets you reveal stealthed enemies by hitting them with CC. etc. etc.

 

Edited by Master Ketsu.4569
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On 7/20/2023 at 7:43 PM, Vinny.7260 said:

Mesmers are going to love being able to finally drop going Lynx/Traveler Runes purely for the 25% movement speed, similar with Guardians.

Uhhh, straight from the FAQ:
 

Quote

 

Q: There are runes that have the same exact stat combinations up to 5 runes and then the 6th rune is different. For example, the runes of the pack, fireworks and surging. Now the rune of the pack actually gives stats (+125 precision) for the 6th rune. But the other two only have the special ability and give no stat bonus. Or does the 25% increase in movement speed count as a stat increase?

A: In cases like this, we’ll be making sure that runes with duplicate 1-5 bonuses have unique 6 slot stats. In this example, 25% movement speed will count as a stat increase and will be seen on a handful of rune 6 pieces.

 

I wouldn't get hopes up for this particular case. So while you may be able to use another relic, you'll still be tied to particular stats, but if there will be "a handful" of rune 6 pieces with that, there should be a combo good enough for any role... Probably.

Edited by Szymon.5369
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My view on the philosophy they should have when it comes to this stuff and this is not just for relics but for any choice the player makes, is for that choice to drastically alter how they would have otherwise played the game without it or choosing something else.

effects like :

“all your fields produce water fields instead.”  (And make this for all 7 fields)

“Weapon swapping no longer has a cool-down. But skills have a  (+8s) longer cool-down.”

“Your healing skill now effects allies in a radius.”

for example…are rune effects that greatly alters how one plays the game in contrast to just being a trivial “boosting” of what you already do.

runes would be more aligned with enabling build creation (and therefor counter creation like someone mentioned earlier)…

Currently most runes are min-maximizers…”do 10% more damage” and folks wonder why all the other runes that do “+5% damage” are never picked.

Edited by JusticeRetroHunter.7684
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18 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

My view on the philosophy they should have when it comes to this stuff and this is not just for relics but for any choice the player makes, is for that choice to drastically alter how they would have otherwise played the game without it or choosing something else.

effects like :

“all your fields produce water fields instead.”  (And make this for all 7 fields)

“Weapon swapping no longer has a cool-down. But skills have a  (+8s) longer cool-down.”

“Your healing skill now effects allies in a radius.”

for example…are rune effects that greatly alters how one plays the game in contrast to just being a trivial “boosting” of what you already do.

runes would be more aligned with enabling build creation (and therefor counter creation like someone mentioned earlier)…

Currently most runes are min-maximizers…”do 10% more damage” and folks wonder why all the other runes that do “+5% damage” are never picked.

Nah alter the full gameplay of a profession with a rune is terrible idea, they gameplay should be locked on by the profession/ elite spec. More runes that enhance the build like trooper/soldier rune and not that make the whole build revolve around it like trapper runes that give a profession something that they shouldn't have by their core design. The second ruins the elite spec balance by reducing the capabilities of it just because the rune exists and the need to be considered in the Power distribution and as such at some point the spec can't function without it reducing the build options.
Random tack ons is one of the biggest bane of all games these days, Simpler is always better, I get that theorycrafters like the all the puzzle pieces getting ordered but they are not that many and most people copy builds and just plug and play. The added complexity doesn't add much for majority of people and at some point it means nothing, good example currently is Diablo 4.     

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7 hours ago, Vancho.8750 said:

Nah alter the full gameplay of a profession with a rune is terrible idea, they gameplay should be locked on by the profession/ elite spec. More runes that enhance the build like trooper/soldier rune and not that make the whole build revolve around it like trapper runes that give a profession something that they shouldn't have by their core design. The second ruins the elite spec balance by reducing the capabilities of it just because the rune exists and the need to be considered in the Power distribution and as such at some point the spec can't function without it reducing the build options.
Random tack ons is one of the biggest bane of all games these days, Simpler is always better, I get that theorycrafters like the all the puzzle pieces getting ordered but they are not that many and most people copy builds and just plug and play. The added complexity doesn't add much for majority of people and at some point it means nothing, good example currently is Diablo 4.     

I just flat out disagree with you on a fundamental level, but there's no point in going into why cause it would not go anywhere. 

I'll put it this way : You are entitled to your opinion, I'm entitled to mine.

My opinion, is that Gw2 is not like a super smash bros and it was never supposed to be designed like one...it was and always will be about builds, and build creation. If there is an ever accurate example of what gw2 should be like, it would be guild wars 1...and there's a lot to learn from the game design of gw1.

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On 7/23/2023 at 4:13 AM, Szymon.5369 said:

Uhhh, straight from the FAQ:
 

I wouldn't get hopes up for this particular case. So while you may be able to use another relic, you'll still be tied to particular stats, but if there will be "a handful" of rune 6 pieces with that, there should be a combo good enough for any role... Probably.

Aw, that's lame. I honestly skimmed most of it and was immediately excited.

Means that specs that were using Lynx/Traveler originally are just getting an extra buff next month. 😛

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6 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

I just flat out disagree with you on a fundamental level, but there's no point in going into why cause it would not go anywhere. 

I'll put it this way : You are entitled to your opinion, I'm entitled to mine.

My opinion, is that Gw2 is not like a super smash bros and it was never supposed to be designed like one...it was and always will be about builds, and build creation. If there is an ever accurate example of what gw2 should be like, it would be guild wars 1...and there's a lot to learn from the game design of gw1.

Guild Wars 2 is not like Guild wars and it is definitely not like Path of Exile. The game was designed for Large scale encounters and PVP as base, For large scale randomness of procs and special interactions break the server when 150 people do it in the same place, another problem is that if you have too many mechanics Anet can't create challenging content since people will always try to cheese the encounter and you are left with encounters that vast majority of the player base can't play while for the ones that know the ins and outs will be kitten easy. For PVP randomness is even worse, since you will lose without even knowing why when someone procs random stuff with 2 buttons, PvP is about skills expression and when you get "countered" on build level the game sucks and the point of the horizontal progression gets lost and might as well have higher tier gear. If there are too many mechanics some of them would definitely be better then the rest and you end up with just illusion of options, while everyone gravitates to certain ones.

GW2 is not what you want it to be, but just so I'm not total kill joy I will recommend a game that are exactly like you suggest a game should be Project Ascension.

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13 hours ago, Vancho.8750 said:

Quote


if that were true and if guild wars was supposed to be like smash bros then just remove any kind of choices you have to begin with. Why bother having 9 options to choose from in an espec, when it could just be 1…being all the attributes and behaviors you want said spec to have. Why bother having specs at all that you could mix and match when you could just have pre- built class. Why bother with all the different skill choices or rune choices or sigils…

if the idea was to have players play a glorified Overwatch then just rip the bandaid off…remove all the choices and be done with it.

 

 

Edited by JusticeRetroHunter.7684
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3 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:


if that were true and if guild wars was supposed to be like smash bros then just remove any kind of choices you have to begin with. Why bother having 9 options to choose from in an espec, when it could just be 1…being all the attributes and behaviors you want said spec to have. Why bother having specs at all that you could mix and match when you could just have pre- built class. Why bother with all the different skill choices or rune choices or sigils…

if the idea was to have players play a glorified Overwatch then just rip the bandaid off…remove all the choices and be done with it.

 

 

Eh it is  more like Tekken then Smash Bros or Counter Strike over Overwatch, allot more skills but with a button press instead of key combinations that is for the core design from the start, the 9 professions (8 of the start) and like a fighting game you can't really have only 8 so most of them got defined by their weapon (that is why the skills on weapons are locked in in stacks kind of like CS weapons define how you play) and you get more characters that function with push and pull mechanics like you swing I block/dodge and so on. 
This kind of clashes with their large scale since you would need AoE mechanics that would not kitten up the push and pull gameplay , which was taken in consideration till Anet noticed that the engine can handle large spectacle pve fights and wen overboard with the flashy AoE skills. You can notice that in the start the game was not supposed to be random when you look at the combo system since it was based on combination of expected behaviour. 
As for the sigil, rune and stat system allot of the mechanics are redundant. You are correct that the sigil and rune mechanics that enhance builds are useless compared to the boring raw % ones since the do more damage or heal more just overshadow gain this boon on healing skill use and the like and not having the % ones would be better for the game. The stat system suuuucks, most of the stat sets are useless in PVE , some are used only in WvW but if you ask the guys playing it the game will be more fun without some of them. Even in WvW you generally pick the meta stats and add a few items here and there to reach a breakpoint but never full sets. Another thing that annoys me in the stat system is that there is no point in them being uneven numbers on top of conversion in % which is also uneven, the game caps out at 80 and the stats are static, there is not point for them to be 157 or 108 instead of 160 and 110 since our brains like the numbers devisable by 10 which would make the conversion to the % easier. The current system is complicated for no reason, which deters new players since people do not like doing math. Simpler is always better if you have allot of mechanics.

Also you can't deny that the game currently has more working builds to play with when they moved to more rigid design with several cookie cutter paths instead of the previous here is some mechanics that may or may not work figure it out which ended up with less then 1 build per profession allot of times.   
 

To return to the topic of the tread If Anet gives Relics to PVP they should enhance the play style intended of the Profession/Elite and not bolt on another mechanic on top, since we already know that Trapper runes suck cause they buff 2 professions but are totally useless for the rest and making other Relics like that will only cause "balance" issues that will echo into changes to the core profession. And with the cadence of patches I would like what I play to not get benched cause the tack relic got changed/removed but the profession ate like 10 nerfs because of it. Anet most probably would not be able to handle the increased feature creep and we will be stuck with something like 5 catalyst or whatever meta for 6 months since their profession high rolled OP relic that they can use to maximum potential. 

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2 hours ago, Vancho.8750 said:

Eh it is  more like Tekken then Smash Bros or Counter Strike over Overwatch, allot more skills but with a button press instead of key combinations that is for the core design from the start, the 9 professions (8 of the start) and like a fighting game you can't really have only 8 so most of them got defined by their weapon (that is why the skills on weapons are locked in in stacks kind of like CS weapons define how you play) and you get more characters that function with push and pull mechanics like you swing I block/dodge and so on. 
This kind of clashes with their large scale since you would need AoE mechanics that would not kitten up the push and pull gameplay , which was taken in consideration till Anet noticed that the engine can handle large spectacle pve fights and wen overboard with the flashy AoE skills. You can notice that in the start the game was not supposed to be random when you look at the combo system since it was based on combination of expected behaviour. 
As for the sigil, rune and stat system allot of the mechanics are redundant. You are correct that the sigil and rune mechanics that enhance builds are useless compared to the boring raw % ones since the do more damage or heal more just overshadow gain this boon on healing skill use and the like and not having the % ones would be better for the game. The stat system suuuucks, most of the stat sets are useless in PVE , some are used only in WvW but if you ask the guys playing it the game will be more fun without some of them. Even in WvW you generally pick the meta stats and add a few items here and there to reach a breakpoint but never full sets. Another thing that annoys me in the stat system is that there is no point in them being uneven numbers on top of conversion in % which is also uneven, the game caps out at 80 and the stats are static, there is not point for them to be 157 or 108 instead of 160 and 110 since our brains like the numbers devisable by 10 which would make the conversion to the % easier. The current system is complicated for no reason, which deters new players since people do not like doing math. Simpler is always better if you have allot of mechanics.

Also you can't deny that the game currently has more working builds to play with when they moved to more rigid design with several cookie cutter paths instead of the previous here is some mechanics that may or may not work figure it out which ended up with less then 1 build per profession allot of times.   
 

To return to the topic of the tread If Anet gives Relics to PVP they should enhance the play style intended of the Profession/Elite and not bolt on another mechanic on top, since we already know that Trapper runes suck cause they buff 2 professions but are totally useless for the rest and making other Relics like that will only cause "balance" issues that will echo into changes to the core profession. And with the cadence of patches I would like what I play to not get benched cause the tack relic got changed/removed but the profession ate like 10 nerfs because of it. Anet most probably would not be able to handle the increased feature creep and we will be stuck with something like 5 catalyst or whatever meta for 6 months since their profession high rolled OP relic that they can use to maximum potential. 

You're kind of being vague and you don’t seem to have a solid stance. I just pointed out, that if the whole idea of this game was to simply give players options and not customization and creation, then there would literally be no point in presenting the choice to customize and create…you simply give the design to the player to play and that would solve all your problems according to your philosophy…(this philosophy solving all your problems is something I also disagree with.)

you are now saying gw2 has to give customization…and now your combating the same problem you literally just presented, which is talking about how some mechanics get picked over others because of differences between them.

like I just stated originally…why bother…get rid of the customization, that is literally the solution to your own problem…thing is you know that it would no longer be gw2 without said creation and customization.

Also specifically about this:

Quote

To return to the topic of the tread If Anet gives Relics to PVP they should enhance the play style intended of the Profession/Elite and not bolt on another mechanic on top, since we already know that Trapper runes suck cause they buff 2 professions but are totally useless for the rest and making other Relics like that

This was never my proposal to begin with. Trapper runes design (runes being artificially locked to specific build because "traps" only apply to certain classes in the game) is not what I was presenting; which was that design in general, should be made in such a way, where as whatever option you chose, drastically alters how one plays the game, in comparison to if they had not chosen otherwise. In fact what i proposed is in complete contrast to things like trapper rune which simply boost what you already do, and things like trapper rune don't change the way that you play the game. it simply "makes traps stronger" and you want to avoid that.

Additionally, i never "added mechanics on top" in my examples, I explicitly used mechanics that already exist...things that all classes have access to...like a heal skill, like fields, like weapon swapping...notice the pattern?

Edited by JusticeRetroHunter.7684
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15 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

You're kind of being vague and you don’t seem to have a solid stance. I just pointed out, that if the whole idea of this game was to simply give players options and not customization and creation, then there would literally be no point in presenting the choice to customize and create…you simply give the design to the player to play and that would solve all your problems according to your philosophy…(this philosophy solving all your problems is something I also disagree with.)

you are now saying gw2 has to give customization…and now your combating the same problem you literally just presented, which is talking about how some mechanics get picked over others because of differences between them.

like I just stated originally…why bother…get rid of the customization, that is literally the solution to your own problem…thing is you know that it would no longer be gw2 without said creation and customization.

Also specifically about this:

This was never my proposal to begin with. Trapper runes design (runes being artificially locked to specific build because "traps" only apply to certain classes in the game) is not what I was presenting; which was that design in general, should be made in such a way, where as whatever option you chose, drastically alters how one plays the game, in comparison to if they had not chosen otherwise. In fact what i proposed is in complete contrast to things like trapper rune which simply boost what you already do, and things like trapper rune don't change the way that you play the game. it simply "makes traps stronger" and you want to avoid that.

Additionally, i never "added mechanics on top" in my examples, I explicitly used mechanics that already exist...things that all classes have access to...like a heal skill, like fields, like weapon swapping...notice the pattern?

I'm not being vague at all, you are making weird conclusions and putting weird arguments about stuff I said. Never have I said that there should not be any customization, my suggestion is that customization should be more rigid as in If I pick up a Hammer on Warrior I would pick traits that inherently buff the core skills set of the weapon without changing the interaction so when someone is on the other side can tell what exactly it would happen which most probably get stunned and not activating some random trap card and getting hit by 15 conditions because of some relic existing. I don't get your whole argument with the extremes where if it is not total anarchy with randomness to removing everything.

For the relic suggestions those are trapper runes on steroids changing fields into water fields, which gives professions access to them even though they are not intended to have them, the weapons swap idea is totally trapper rune levels since most professions eat the drawback while thief wouldn't since it does not have CDs on weapon abilities , the heal around yourself seems fine as a mechanic but it feels more like a treat for professions that don't have AoE heal, as in the suggestion is terrible since there are AoE heals already that have drawbacks to normal ones, do they heal twice so you pick them over higher healing personal ones which makes it way too strong. 

The problem is that the suggestions you make for relics is making them Build defining instead of build enhancing, the problem is adding mechanics that the profession does not posses inherently.   

 

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1 hour ago, Vancho.8750 said:

I'm not being vague at all, you are making weird conclusions and putting weird arguments about stuff I said. Never have I said that there should not be any customization, my suggestion is that customization should be more rigid

 

You're not getting this. I just said that customization...the ability to be able to choose between meaningful options, goes against the core root of the philosophy you just presented. you now just said it again: that the game must have customization... but this goes against your own  philosophy... this one (paraphrased for readability):

Quote

gives professions access to design they are not intended to have.

The solution to your own problem is simple...get rid of all customization (the ability to chose/mix and match things), and just give the player the intended design. why bother beating around the bush...

But that's why you are beating around the bush. You're idea of "more rigid" is in complete contrast to the idea of "creation" and that's why you can't even reconcile your own problems, created by your own philosophy with respect to Guild Wars 2 because "going rigid" is not what guild wars is about on a fundamental level.

Beyond that, what build you play, should not be for A-net to decide nor should it be controlled by them. The whole point of the game, like...the rule-state, the win-state and the possibility space boils down into the creation of builds. Guild Wars is at it's core (supposed to be) Darwinian not Totalitarian.

 

Quote

the weapons swap idea is totally trapper rune levels since most professions eat the drawback while thief wouldn't since it does not have CDs on weapon abilities

This is a rather strange way to analyze my own suggestion, because you are automatically assuming the "listed" effect, wouldn't or shouldn't work for thief, when it's quiet clear what I wrote : Weapons get a 8 second extension on their cooldowns...meaning thieves no longer have 0 CD weapons when taking such a rune effect (0s + 8s = 8s)...

It's not even a real rune effect and you're already saying "it doesn't work as intended" lol. Use your imagination.

Edited by JusticeRetroHunter.7684
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